Paf Sabotaged The Purchase Of New Aircraft For 30 Years---Open A Case

[Vapnope]

How many wars have we had since 2002 with India where we needed to use our air force? There was no war nor is there isn't one in the foreseeable future.

You are still living in the time of your youth when advanced jets were used to bomb enemy's bases and important facilities, now the same is done by pressing a button to launch a CM or a BM. There is a belief in the Military hierarchy that the new war is insurgency which is already upon us and we need to be better prepared to fight it. If there is an all out war it will not be a conventional tank vs tank, artillery vs artillery and aircraft vs aircraft war, it will quickly escalate to Nuclear which will end both countries leaving no need for advanced weapons.

1 - Just because there have been no wars doesn't guarantee there wont be none in future.
2 - If CMs or BMs are the only solution i see no need for USAF to go for Raptors and Lighting thunders IIs, or Russia going for flankers and PAK FGA/TA 50 or China for JXXs
3 - If insurgency is the only type of threat we are facing, there is no need to even go for F-16s, subs, corvettes or SAM batteries. We can handle insurgency in half the money we are spending on big ticket items.

Mastan Khan has been very clear for what he is advocating. Its painful that people at least cannot acknowledge the rationale he has put forward in front everyone.

 

[Readerdefence]

I'm happy that it has started and it shouldn't remain limited to PAF rather extended to all the armed forces and other institutions. After the Dawn-leaks fiasco, I'm interested that ex-COAS and current-COAS both get interrogated and if found guilty then punished under high treason so that no one will ever dare compromise on the national security and make disgraceful deals.

My friend please consider what's happening around Pakistan you are putting us in double jeopardy so let's roll ahead and try to amend your failures for future
Dawn leak is nothing as compared to debacle of east Pakistan & salala so we have to be very
Careful when you said something like this
If you don't agree with me let's wait for next year and may be somebody with steel balls will
Come in the govt to do this which I'm sure will not do
Thx

 

[Inception-06]

another thread where the Gutter chap Public of India get chance to bash Pakistan and its institutions .. Thanks to our PDF phuppo @MastanKhan ...

no need for bashing MC- chi gi vara ! Hold your line and enjoy the discussion!

 

[F86 Saber]

Even though i agree with you on some points however your 2 points intotally disagree with.
1. How many wars have we fought with India since 2002??
Well it was not so long ago we were almost at war with NATO after Salala incident. Thank god things didnt get messy at the time or else you would ve known the reality and heads out of sand. War can happen anytime or any moment and with anyone thats what the nature of current affairs. Tell US Russia that Airforce is of no need in Syria and all you need is press of buttons. They are dummies to have deployed Su35's, and all other platfroms in Syrian theatre.

Almost doesn't count for a war, we almost went to war with India during Kargil, the only thing that kept them from starting a full scale war was the threat of our nukes which at that time was a hoax as our nuclear weapons were not ready. If they didn't attack then, they will never attack. Russia against Syria example is totally incorrect in this context, neither are we Syria nor is India as strong as Russia and with a non-existent airforce, Russia can bomb Syria with C-130s and Syria wouldn't be able to respond. On the other hand, why do you think India didn't go ahead with their plan to bomb Hafiz Saeed's Mudrissa at Muridke? Why didn't were they bomb the terrorist training camps in AJK that they claim are sending insurgents in Kashmir?

2. Your second point i disagree with is that its not tank to tank or aircraft to aircraft.
Look the thing is you have to show your teeth these days to divert threat. If we have a better fleet then we wont have to invest resourses in sealing the holes that are caused because of weak equipment on the first place.

Sorry but we cannot match India aircraft to aircraft or tank to tank so we are showing teeth that matter i.e MIRV, SLCM, ALCM etc etc.

1 - Just because there have been no wars doesn't guarantee there wont be none in future.

Can you Guarantee that there will be a war in the future? Can you describe it's outcome?

2 - If CMs or BMs are the only solution i see no need for USAF to go for Raptors and Lighting thunders IIs, or Russia going for flankers and PAK FGA/TA 50 or China for JXXs

Simple answer is, because they can, they have the resources, they are preparing against each other. We don't have the money to match India blow to blow so we are investing what we have intelligently.

3 - If insurgency is the only type of threat we are facing, there is no need to even go for F-16s, subs, corvettes or SAM batteries. We can handle insurgency in half the money we are spending on big ticket items.

Minimum deterrence my friend, that is our strategy for Air force and air defense and i think it is the correct one.

Mastan Khan has been very clear for what he is advocating. Its painful that people at least cannot acknowledge the rationale he has put forward in front everyone.

 

[Vapnope]

Can you Guarantee that there will be a war in the future? Can you describe it's outcome?

Already mentioned, just because there has been no war doesn't guarantee there wont be none. I'd love to keep myself prepared instead of assuming that it wont happen.

Simple answer is, because they can, they have the resources, they are preparing against each other. We don't have the money to match India blow to blow so we are investing what we have intelligently.

Nobody is asking to match India in machine to machine or bird to bird. At least have technological better equipment to ensure theoretical advantage.

Minimum deterrence my friend, that is our strategy for Air force and air defense and i think it is the correct one.

Interesting word you used there "Minimum Deterrence" fielding qualitatively and quantitatively inferior assets to your foe is called suicide not the minimum deterrence. Whatever happened to offense is best defense narrative.

 

[Talon]

Hi,

It is funny and it is painful.

The Govt of pakistan has decided to open cases of corruption against Paf officers retroactively.

What the next important steps they need to take is to open an inquiry and and charge those who sabotaged the procurement of a potent fighter aircraft in the last 30 years---.

All dishonest and HONEST officers who FAILED to acquire the aircraft---must be equally charged with sabotaging the defense of the nation and conspiring to create a situation to give the enemy and upper hand in an air battle.

Specially the one regarding the Mirage 2000 purchase in early 90's---those who went for the second batch of F16's in the late 80's---those who refused the Rafale procurement---those who did not force upon the U S after 9/11 for the F16 immediately---those who failed to comprehend the change in U S public opinion regarding the sale of F16's---specially those who donated the Paf funds for the aircraft to the earthquake relief---.

Those who refused the procurement of the J10B's 3 years ago---.

They must all be charged with treason---all properties confiscated and they should be hanged for conspiring to weakne the defense of the nation----Pakistan Zindabad.

I told you guys a few months ago that I am going to go after the Paf---. It has started---where it is going to end up---I do not know---.

If u are so competent and know how to run things then why are u sitting outside Pakistan instead of being a high ranked officer in the PAF...?
Yr posts are always negative in nature and ur always critisizing folks..
Do u even know how much are the fuel expenses of flying of a single day on an airbase(not taking in account other expenses)..if u knew that u wouldnt be complaining about buying new aircrafts?
J10s are useless for PAF as we already have JF and F16..why have the same category/potential aircrafts?
Paf cant go for Su35 bcuz its too expensive for PAF inculding its running and maintenance costs...
Do u even know anything about PEACE GATE program..???
Paf is a GHAREEB airforce and yet it is doing a lot more than its potential..so u better get some info about funds and expenses of PAF and then start campaigning against it..!

 

[Pakistan First]

@MastanKhan , my dear friend, your Triest Against PAF... how it keeps unfolding!

Why limit yourself to PAF alone... are there not other monsters behind the hedges in the Garden of Pak?

Painful sights these.. this rampant corruption in every sphere of the state.

Before, we lament and condemn corrupts let us take a step back and understand what corruption means.

When someone steals something... it is not just the object but it is also theft of all possibilities that is stolen. Bar only out of pure hunger...then the context is different.

What this rampant corruption in political and establishment spheres has done to Pak State and Pak People is theft of Life...theft of all possibilities that this nation and its young could have had.

We must stand still...and look how eduction, justice and development is stolen.

And with this theft...future development, health and happiness is stolen from the youth. These parasites have created a cycle of misery which is unnatural for Pak's natural conditions.

So, yeah, MK, let us join hands and condemn corruption and corrupt. But let us also feel deep sadness for the loss of Possibilities too.

I guess you bleed in your heart too... despite you being a Yankee and all... you still love your Pak dearly. All your troublemaking here on PDF might not be only related to your ego after all!


@Horus @WebMaster @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Mentee @DESERT FIGHTER @django @Max @Kaptaan , dear friends, since PDF is about the Defence of Pakistan from all threat avenues...
how come we don't have a dedicated place to highlight and condemn these thieves of Life and Possibilities. Naming and shaming perhaps can help in creating awareness among the young.

I leave it upto you to do the Right Thing. As not being part of Pak Society... I as person... can only accentuate the Positive and feel sadness in private.

As always, a great post.

 

[Mentee]

If u are so competent and know how to run things then why are u sitting outside Pakistan instead of being a high ranked officer in the PAF...?

hi, he was bright enough to get an admission into an engineering college .

Do u even know how much are the fuel expenses of flying of a single day on an airbase(not taking in account other expenses)..i

Ya Allah ------

Paf is a GHAREEB airforce and yet it is doing a lot more than its potential..so u better get some info about funds and expenses of PAF and then start campaigning against it..!

you sure with all those housing societies and brand new bmw's n suv's , paf really is a ghareeb fizaiya

 

[F86 Saber]

Already mentioned, just because there has been no war doesn't guarantee there wont be none. I'd love to keep myself prepared instead of assuming that it wont happen.

Nobody is asking to match India in machine to machine or bird to bird. At least have technological better equipment to ensure theoretical advantage.

Interesting word you used there "Minimum Deterrence" fielding qualitatively and quantitatively inferior assets to your foe is called suicide not the minimum deterrence. Whatever happened to offense is best defense narrative.

It also doesn't guarantee that there WILL be a war, like i said, if India could attack Pakistan under the threat of our Nuclear deterrence, they would have attacked in 1999, 2002, 2005, 2009 and 2016. If they didn't do it then when our Nuclear and Missile programs were not as much developed, they will not attack now when we have MIRVs, SLCMs and Missiles which can reach even their Andaman Sea bases.

 

[Talon]

hi, he was bright enough to get an admission into an engineering college .



Ya Allah ------


you sure with all those housing societies and brand new bmw's n suv's , paf really is a ghareeb fizaiya

engineers rull rahy hain sarkon pe...
Housing socities are not being given on ALLAH WASTAY basis...and there's hell of difference b/w a bmw and an aircraft...stop trolling

 

[Mentee]

engineers rull rahy hain sarkon pe...
Housing socities are not being given on ALLAH WASTAY basis...and there's hell of difference b/w a bmw and an aircraft...stop trolling

arary Bhai engineer jahaz or runway nae design kry ga to driver jahaz kysay ura-ay ga

 

[ziaulislam]

In your own language, you do not go on and replace your old Toyota with a leased Ferrari just because your rich neighbor bought a Lamborghini. By the way, were the PAF officials caught in their "lie"? How many wars have we had since 2002 with India where we needed to use our air force? There was no war nor is there isn't one in the foreseeable future.

You are still living in the time of your youth when advanced jets were used to bomb enemy's bases and important facilities, now the same is done by pressing a button to launch a CM or a BM. T

Just by the way, what equipment has been purchased by the army in the last 10 years? If you have a look at them, New Helicopters, advanced handheld weapons, updated gear for soldiers like NVGs, armor etc, APCs, they have all been bought to fight terrorists and not India. Our need right now is to curb out terrorism and clear our soil of these scum.

newest ZULUs, and new eng tanks worth 700M dollars recent deal with Ukraine are used against terrorists
new SAM systems for the strike core
on can argue that mig 35 would be used against terrorists and previous gen cobras
i didnt know that anti terrorist activities require SAMs

 

[MastanKhan]

In your own language, you do not go on and replace your old Toyota with a leased Ferrari just because your rich neighbor bought a Lamborghini. By the way, were the PAF officials caught in their "lie"? How many wars have we had since 2002 with India where we needed to use our air force? There was no war nor is there isn't one in the foreseeable future.

You are still living in the time of your youth when advanced jets were used to bomb enemy's bases and important facilities, now the same is done by pressing a button to launch a CM or a BM. There is a belief in the Military hierarchy that the new war is insurgency which is already upon us and we need to be better prepared to fight it. If there is an all out war it will not be a conventional tank vs tank, artillery vs artillery and aircraft vs aircraft war, it will quickly escalate to Nuclear which will end both countries leaving no need for advanced weapons.



Just by the way, what equipment has been purchased by the army in the last 10 years? If you have a look at them, New Helicopters, advanced handheld weapons, updated gear for soldiers like NVGs, armor etc, APCs, they have all been bought to fight terrorists and not India. Our need right now is to curb out terrorism and clear our soil of these scum.

Hi,

I am very disappointed that over the 10 + years I have been on this board---I have not made you understand about different kinds of wars and when to get the equipment in a timely manner---please accept my apologies for failing to do so.

I do not know from your introduction how old you are or what you do---so it is very difficult for me to answer you.

Since 2002---there have been 10-15 tactical battles with india and pakistan has lost almost all of them---. War mongering and war posturing is more damaging at times than actual war---because it depletes your reserves at a sustained pace for a long period of time---whence you were better off having an actual conflict.

You should have learnt by now that you don't buy the equipment the day you go to war---you don't buy it 2-3years before war---nowadays---it is more like 5 to 7 years before you go to war---because you have to learn to use it as well.

If you had the right aircraft 15 years ago---the enemy would have understood the futility of war posturing and would have made a peace deal a decade ago---.

If the Paf had spent 5 billion dollars of air superiority fighter in 2002-03 and started gettting them in 2004---the threat of war would have dissipated because the enemy would have known that not much can be done by fighting---.

2002 was the ' grass eating ' moment for pakistan---. At 15 years later you are in a bigger hole than ever before---.

@MastanKhan , my dear friend, your Triest Against PAF... how it keeps unfolding!

Why limit yourself to PAF alone... are there not other monsters behind the hedges in the Garden of Pak?

Painful sights these.. this rampant corruption in every sphere of the state.

Before, we lament and condemn corrupts let us take a step back and understand what corruption means.

When someone steals something... it is not just the object but it is also theft of all possibilities that is stolen. Bar only out of pure hunger...then the context is different.

What this rampant corruption in political and establishment spheres has done to Pak State and Pak People is theft of Life...theft of all possibilities that this nation and its young could have had.

We must stand still...and look how eduction, justice and development is stolen.

And with this theft...future development, health and happiness is stolen from the youth. These parasites have created a cycle of misery which is unnatural for Pak's natural conditions.

So, yeah, MK, let us join hands and condemn corruption and corrupt. But let us also feel deep sadness for the loss of Possibilities too.

I guess you bleed in your heart too... despite you being a Yankee and all... you still love your Pak dearly. All your troublemaking here on PDF might not be only related to your ego after all!


@Horus @WebMaster @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Mentee @DESERT FIGHTER @django @Max @Kaptaan , dear friends, since PDF is about the Defence of Pakistan from all threat avenues...
how come we don't have a dedicated place to highlight and condemn these thieves of Life and Possibilities. Naming and shaming perhaps can help in creating awareness among the young.

I leave it upto you to do the Right Thing. As not being part of Pak Society... I as person... can only accentuate the Positive and feel sadness in private.

Hi,

For what you are proposing---I would need funds---.

You have to fight corruption from a position of strength---because the fight is going to be brutal---and you know that.

In your own language, you do not go on and replace your old Toyota with a leased Ferrari just because your rich neighbor bought a Lamborghini. By the way, were the PAF officials caught in their "lie"? How many wars have we had since 2002 with India where we needed to use our air force? There was no war nor is there isn't one in the foreseeable future.

Hi,

Your post is very deceptive---. The F16 was not an old toyota---it was THE FERRARI---. So we already had the vehicle---we just needed more of them---.

And those equipment bought by the army---what are they going to do in a war with india---hang them on the wall?

They are lucky to get that equipment and try and test it and become familiar with it in battle situations---because at times of war with india---they would be struggling to use it in actual combat conditions---if they had not used it before.

Those days of jumping into the cockpit and taking off have gone away some 40 + years ago.

 

[F86 Saber]

Hi,

I am very disappointed that over the 10 + years I have been on this board---I have not made you understand about different kinds of wars and when to get the equipment in a timely manner---please accept my apologies for failing to do so.

I do not know from your introduction how old you are or what you do---so it is very difficult for me to answer you.

Since 2002---there have been 10-15 tactical battles with india and pakistan has lost almost all of them---. War mongering and war posturing is more damaging at times than actual war---because it depletes your reserves at a sustained pace for a long period of time---whence you were better off having an actual conflict.

You should have learnt by now that you don't buy the equipment the day you go to war---you don't buy it 2-3years before war---nowadays---it is more like 5 to 7 years before you go to war---because you have to learn to use it as well.

If you had the right aircraft 15 years ago---the enemy would have understood the futility of war posturing and would have made a peace deal a decade ago---.

If the Paf had spent 5 billion dollars of air superiority fighter in 2002-03 and started gettting them in 2004---the threat of war would have dissipated because the enemy would have known that not much can be done by fighting---.

2002 was the ' grass eating ' moment for pakistan---. At 15 years later you are in a bigger hole than ever before---.



Hi,

For what you are proposing---I would need funds---.

You have to fight corruption from a position of strength---because the fight is going to be brutal---and you know that.



Hi,

Your post is very deceptive---. The F16 was not an old toyota---it was THE FERRARI---. So we already had the vehicle---we just needed more of them---.

And those equipment bought by the army---what are they going to do in a war with india---hang them on the wall?

They are lucky to get that equipment and try and test it and become familiar with it in battle situations---because at times of war with india---they would be struggling to use it in actual combat conditions---if they had not used it before.

Those days of jumping into the cockpit and taking off have gone away some 40 + years ago.

I am old and mature enough and connected well enough to understand what is going on, however my understanding is that you are at the stage of your life where it is very difficult for you to change your way of thinking and understand something especially when it is being explained by someone who is a lot younger than you. There is no doubt about your knowledge and your ability to impress others with it however your knowledge is outdated and you do not like to be reminded of that. I am sorry for what i have said but it is not personal, i come from a family of highly educated adults with years of experience and i know what it is like to argue with them.

From your thoughts i gather you are saying that if Pakistan had a stronger air force, they would have used it in one of the 15 skirmishes which you mentioned thus escalating it into a full scale war? I am sorry but i can't even comment on this.

India, since the late 1990s have had a far superior air force as compared to Pakistan, (please read "PAF role in Kargil war" by Kaiser Tufail), they've had the flankers since 2004, do why have they never used them in any of the conflicts? Why have they not started a war with Pakistan? That is because they have already started a war in Pakistan, a war for which they do not need Heavy Tanks or advanced fighter Jets (they are buying them to prepare against China), a war in which Pakistan has lost more than 70,000 souls without India having to spend a single bullet. This is the war we are fighting and this is the war we are preparing against.

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

It is funny and it is painful.

The Govt of pakistan has decided to open cases of corruption against Paf officers retroactively.

What the next important steps they need to take is to open an inquiry and and charge those who sabotaged the procurement of a potent fighter aircraft in the last 30 years---.

All dishonest and HONEST officers who FAILED to acquire the aircraft---must be equally charged with sabotaging the defense of the nation and conspiring to create a situation to give the enemy and upper hand in an air battle.

Specially the one regarding the Mirage 2000 purchase in early 90's---those who went for the second batch of F16's in the late 80's---those who refused the Rafale procurement---those who did not force upon the U S after 9/11 for the F16 immediately---those who failed to comprehend the change in U S public opinion regarding the sale of F16's---specially those who donated the Paf funds for the aircraft to the earthquake relief---.

Those who refused the procurement of the J10B's 3 years ago---.

They must all be charged with treason---all properties confiscated and they should be hanged for conspiring to weakne the defense of the nation----Pakistan Zindabad.

I told you guys a few months ago that I am going to go after the Paf---. It has started---where it is going to end up---I do not know---.

Don't worry under current PAF soon we would go for modern 4.5 ++ Generation Fighter Jets and than will work on 5th Generation