PAF options for IAF Jaguar upgrade

[Khan vilatey]

We all know that the IAF is upgrading its Jaguars with the DARIN -Iii upgrade giving it an Israeli AESA radar, FLIR with additional goddies. This is similar to our Retrofit of strike element ROSE-III program.

what would be effective strategies to deal with these strike aircraft? I am looking for possible strategies for discussion

Do we think increasing our SAM capability with long range SAM is an answer? we do have good low and medium Altitude coverage should we add hq-15b and get a s-300 esk air defence system.

more do we increase fighter aircrafts dedicated to point defence role?

In my opinion the PAF CAS role will be taken over by drones and possibly with attack helicopters in the Pakistan Army, the center of training and excellence for armed drones in Rahwali or Gujranwala is clear step in the right direction. This will free up air assets for air defence and strike escort roles. Unfortunately we would still have windows of opportunities open for deep strikes by IAF to harass things like the eme workshop in pindi and Kamra and other important assets.

I believe we should add more squadrons of air craft and focus on possible air defence drones. This may be a cost effective way to defend against fighters. Personally, I believe that static air defence like s-400 and s-500 are a thing of the past. We have seen these fail in negoro Khalabagh, Syria etc.

it may be an idea to convert f-7pg into an effective point defence drone or we could start now from scratch. These could be effective point defence aircraft loitering for hours on end to take out incoming aircraft on the cheap. I do not believe this will not be easy but I believe in the ingenuity of the Pakistani people.

k


more info
“The DARIN-III upgrades include a new radar, a fully integrated electronic warfare suite, smart multi-function displays, new avionics, and a new attack system.

“The HAL will upgrade 56 Jaguars to DARIN-III standard, and the project will be completed by 2024,” an official source said.”

 

[SQ8]

The DARINs are great interdiction assets but are no longer the pressing threat they were ten years ago as a program. The radar coverage over Pakistan has improved so the key requirement is greater battlefield AD. The PG’s are already pretty good at point defense interception but its also pretty good as an embedded asset against DARINs ... think Hurricanes to Spitfires in the Battle of Britain. The Spirfires(F-16’s, JF-17’s) hunt the escorts(although really they will hunt everything) and the PGs streak in at low level to go after the low levels attackers in Darins or M2Ks. The Su-30’s are pretty terrible at low level interdiction and strike so the M2k,Rafale & Darins will remain the premier strike assets for India.

The real threat is with the CBU-105’s against armored formations and we really don’t have a solution shown @PanzerKiel @Dazzler any thoughts on countermeasures for top down skeet attacks?

 

[Vapnope]

The real threat is with the CBU-105’s against armored formations

Quwa once indicated that Pakistan and Turkey were working on a similar cluster munitions back in 2016. I don't know whatever happened to that program.

 

[FuturePAF]

High altitude (the higher the better to stay out of SAM range), preferably long endurance unmanned platforms with long range Electro-optical sensors maybe the best way to go about it

Detecting enemy aircraft attempting to move in under the ground radar’s horizon would be the mission of these aircraft.

 

[PanzerKiel]

The real threat is with the CBU-105’s against armored formations and we really don’t have a solution shown @PanzerKiel @Dazzler any thoughts on countermeasures for top down skeet attacks?

The best solution is not to concentrate armour formations above squadron level at any one place....keep them dispersed during move, assembly and attack.....adopting specific attack formations in order to minimize the effect of air attacks.....

making max use of embedded AD elements (Guns, GM, GM/SP and shoulder fired assets), taking them along everywhere....

point is, enemy airforce should think twice before attacking....not due to the AD coverage, but due to small concentrations of armour formations available to attack...no one in the right mind would send an airforce sortie against maybe a squadron level formation unless it is about to get something sensitive....

 

[Khan vilatey]

The best solution is not to concentrate armour formations above squadron level at any one place....keep them dispersed during move, assembly and attack.....adopting specific attack formations in order to minimize the effect of air attacks.....

making max use of embedded AD elements (Guns, GM, GM/SP and shoulder fired assets), taking them along everywhere....

point is, enemy airforce should think twice before attacking....not due to the AD coverage, but due to small concentrations of armour formations available to attack...no one in the right mind would send an airforce sortie against maybe a squadron level formation unless it is about to get something sensitive....

this may not be easy as strike core elements would try to break the Indians formations in detail and early before they from up. This would require armored concentrations.

but I see your point

k

 

[PanzerKiel]

this may not be easy as strike core elements would try to break the Indians formations in detail and early before they from up. This would require armored concentrations.

but I see your point

k

Strike Corps will do that, but without giving enemy air any chance to strike...thats where its tactical level formations, drills and procedures along with the embedded AD will come in handy.

 

[Zulfiqar]

India is also testing their own SDB (SAAW something) equivalent in jaguars/hawks. This would help them use jaguars to greater effect against PAF air bases.

Any chance we are working on something similar as SDBs help a lot when you have lower number of hard points and greater number of targets.

@Dazzler @SQ8 @PAR 5 @Ark_Angel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix @kursed

 

[PAR 5]

India is also testing their own SDB (SAAW something) equivalent in jaguars/hawks. This would help them use jaguars to greater effect against PAF air bases.

Any chance we are working on something similar as SDBs help a lot when you have lower number of hard points and greater number of targets.

@Dazzler @SQ8 @PAR 5 @Ark_Angel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix @kursed

AWC developed an SDB for the Burraq. I have no idea what happened to it afterwards

 

[Khan vilatey]

All these points are good but what is people’s opinion on tactics

such as investment in long range Sam batteries Or building manned anti aircraft drones for air defence?

k

 

[Bossman]

Quwa once indicated that Pakistan and Turkey were working on a similar cluster munitions back in 2016. I don't know whatever happened to that program.

Pakistan has been making cluster bombs for many years.

The issue with the Jaguar is it low power and India has decided not to replace the engine as it was originally planned. One of the justification for PAF to continue using its Mirages is the IAF Jaguars. Mirages are much more effective in their strike roles.

 

[ziaulislam]

We all know that the IAF is upgrading its Jaguars with the DARIN -Iii upgrade giving it an Israeli AESA radar, FLIR with additional goddies. This is similar to our Retrofit of strike element ROSE-III program.

what would be effective strategies to deal with these strike aircraft? I am looking for possible strategies for discussion

Do we think increasing our SAM capability with long range SAM is an answer? we do have good low and medium Altitude coverage should we add hq-15b and get a s-300 esk air defence system.

more do we increase fighter aircrafts dedicated to point defence role?

In my opinion the PAF CAS role will be taken over by drones and possibly with attack helicopters in the Pakistan Army, the center of training and excellence for armed drones in Rahwali or Gujranwala is clear step in the right direction. This will free up air assets for air defence and strike escort roles. Unfortunately we would still have windows of opportunities open for deep strikes by IAF to harass things like the eme workshop in pindi and Kamra and other important assets.

I believe we should add more squadrons of air craft and focus on possible air defence drones. This may be a cost effective way to defend against fighters. Personally, I believe that static air defence like s-400 and s-500 are a thing of the past. We have seen these fail in negoro Khalabagh, Syria etc.

it may be an idea to convert f-7pg into an effective point defence drone or we could start now from scratch. These could be effective point defence aircraft loitering for hours on end to take out incoming aircraft on the cheap. I do not believe this will not be easy but I believe in the ingenuity of the Pakistani people.

k


more info
“The DARIN-III upgrades include a new radar, a fully integrated electronic warfare suite, smart multi-function displays, new avionics, and a new attack system.

“The HAL will upgrade 56 Jaguars to DARIN-III standard, and the project will be completed by 2024,” an official source said.”

No they arent
Project scrapped for lack of funding for new engine
Just HAL plan of more miliking IAF

India is also testing their own SDB (SAAW something) equivalent in jaguars/hawks. This would help them use jaguars to greater effect against PAF air bases.

Any chance we are working on something similar as SDBs help a lot when you have lower number of hard points and greater number of targets.

@Dazzler @SQ8 @PAR 5 @Ark_Angel @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @airomerix @kursed

SDB & cluster ammunition are game changer
Ignoring it will hurt PA really bad

 

[Khan vilatey]

Pakistan has been making cluster bombs for many years.

The issue with the Jaguar is it low power and India has decided not to replace the engine as it was originally planned. One of the justification for PAF to continue using its Mirages is the IAF Jaguars. Mirages are much more effective in their strike roles.

True but the Jaguar gives them stoke capability freeing up aircraft for other roles

I see the IAF deploy the following

strike package Pakistani air bases and installations
Su-30 as air dominance aircraft
Mirage 2000 as strike element for precision strikes

suppression of enemy air defence SEAD
Su-30 as air dominance aircraft
Mirages as strike element with HARM type weapons

CAS and strikes against our mobile armored formations will be
su-30 in air dominance role and
Jaguars in strike role

the is especially true if our armored formations are operating inside liberated Indian territory.

I see Rafael’s only used for air defence role against Pakistan within Indian territory. They are two few and valuable to be lost to JF-17s in Pakistan

the will be used in long range strikes against China hence the 3 -6 air bus tankers.
It maybe that they are used as escorts in CAS type mission with mirages

we all know that Indian mirages can share data with their rafaels with the sagem data link the mirage 2000 uses

they will be used as long range strike elements with possibilities su-30 escorts or Rafael only strike packages

I see mig-29, mig-21 and tejas as more than point defence aircraft. They lack the range to conduct strike operations or escort missions in Pakistani territory.

I look forward to your opinion


K

 

[Paro_Peagus]

True but the Jaguar gives them stoke capability freeing up aircraft for other roles

I see the IAF deploy the following

strike package Pakistani air bases and installations
Su-30 as air dominance aircraft
Mirage 2000 as strike element for precision strikes

suppression of enemy air defence SEAD
Su-30 as air dominance aircraft
Mirages as strike element with HARM type weapons

CAS and strikes against our mobile armored formations will be
su-30 in air dominance role and
Jaguars in strike role

the is especially true if our armored formations are operating inside liberated Indian territory.

I see Rafael’s only used for air defence role against Pakistan within Indian territory. They are two few and valuable to be lost to JF-17s in Pakistan

the will be used in long range strikes against China hence the 3 -6 air bus tankers.
It maybe that they are used as escorts in CAS type mission with mirages

we all know that Indian mirages can share data with their rafaels with the sagem data link the mirage 2000 uses

they will be used as long range strike elements with possibilities su-30 escorts or Rafael only strike packages

I don’t see mig-29, mig-21 and tejas as more than point defence aircraft. They lack the range to conduct strike operations or escort missions in Pakistani territory.

I look forward to your opinion


K

Just a correction. Su30s can carry 20 saaws each alone. So you’ll have to consider all su30 package with a pair being used as bomb trucks and another 2 pairs for air domination and ew cover. A bomb package alone can level an airfield. IAF probably doesn’t want to revel their attack profile as it is going to be their primary attack package in a full fledged war. This is one of reasons Saaws wasn’t used in last years attack and iaf went with mirage 2k hanging off the shelf weapons. Now saaws are even being integrated with hawks too, my understanding is saaws will end up being widely produced by private sector.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

The long and short of it – every fighter in the subcontinent, barring the Mir-III/V can leave the Jag behind in rate of turn, acceleration and climb rate. However, the Jag excels in handling, visibility and availability, which feed quite effectively into its daily tactic of saturation strikes. Jags fly in hoards at tree-top altitudes. Imagine a formation of very-very high-speed choppers. These birds are impossible to spot from the sky and difficult to track from the ground.”

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