PAF ‘OPS SWIFT RETORT’ and the effectiveness of air power

[Armchair]

Its not all black and white. The issue lies in indecisive leadership and also the pressures of our allies/friends/powers.

In 65 our plan would have mauled the IAF if not for leadership change at the last minute and the usual self serving suckups foiling our plans. The the IAF behaved the same way it did on the 27th.

In 71 the IAF came back well trained and will a plan, yet we stuck to ours and survived an onslaught.
However, the enemy was able to take the narrative of us attacking their airfield as the trigger to war and they could have repeated it this time as well.

The problem is that when the National leadership has decided that we shall not provoke an all out war and are only engaging in “aggressive diplomacy” then the engagement has to be controlled and strict RoEs adhered to.

Yes, the PAF could have brought down many more IAF aircraft that way by crossing into India deeper but the idea was to not take unnecessary risks both tactically and diplomatically.

The mistake made later had nothing to do with the PAF but with the usual failure of our foriegn office and associated fat flabby corrupt bureaucrats who were unable to wrestle a narrative properly everywhere.

The mistake is our media incapable of pushing a brainwashed narrative like theirs does.

But the crucial mistake was made years earlier when Pakistan was made.. and we never got rid of the ethnic lines or self serving sycophants who took power and looted our coffers throughout.

There are still personnel within the PAF who may have let their American handlers know of any plans.. who may warn the Indians.. there are those who would roll away and bug out at the first sign of a BARS radar showing up on their RWR.. and there are those that made millions by fleecing the PAF for spare purchases or useless equipment.

As long as they and the many remain in our society, India had, has and will continue to defeat us in wars no matter how many small battles we win.

Thank you, a sobering reply. Here are some quick thoughts:

1. DGISPR should have released more damning details, the failure to do so was not the fault of our media (which can never compare in the first place to India's), but the fault of the military establishment

2. To get rid of the enemy within, clear policies need to be instituted. Like all military personnel beyond a certain rank cannot send their kids or themselves abroad as long as they live. Like creating a list of the people who are serving other masters. If you draft a plan, I can try my best to get it to Imran Khan.

3. If this was 65, 71 is awaiting us sooner or later. We have to take concrete steps to be ready for that challenge and learn from history.

Thanks again for a thought provoking reply.

 

[SIPRA]

Indian Army commanders left Brigade HQ ‘minutes before’ PAF bomb fell in compound 27 Feb
Pakistan has claimed bomb was dropped near Brigade HQ in Rajouri to show its capability. India believes PAF actually planned to hit the facility.
SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP Updated: 27 May, 2019 10:07 am IST

Northern Army Commander Lt. Gen. Ranbir Singh had the visited troops along LoC in Rajouri Sector on February 27. | Twitter: @NorthernComd_IA
Text Size:





New Delhi: When Pakistan Air Force fighter jets dropped a bomb near an Indian defence installation in Jammu and Kashmir on 27 February — a day after the Balakot strike by the Indian Air Force — Islamabad claimed that this was done to display its capability and not target the Indian military.

The H-4 Stand-Off Weapon, a precision-guided glide bomb, dropped by the PAF fell into the compound of the Indian Army Brigade Headquarters in the Rajouri sector, making it a close call.

This call, ThePrint has learnt, was much closer than known earlier as two top Indian Army commanders — Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. Ranbir Singh and 16 Corps Commander Lt Gen. Paramjit Singh — had stepped out of the Brigade Headquarters “minutes before” the bomb fell.


The two commanders, top sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint, had left for a nearby post when the PAF bomb fell into the compound of the Brigade Headquarters. This post was less than 700 metres from the spot where the bomb struck.

The Northern Command and the Indian Army headquarters did not respond to requests for comment from ThePrint for this report.

Also read: How a woman officer helped IAF hit back when Pakistani jets targeted India after Balakot

‘Real plan of PAF’
The PAF fighter jets were chased away by the IAF after a dogfight which saw IAF Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman being shot down and captured by Pakistan. He was released after nearly 60 hours in Pakistani captivity as the two countries pulled back from the brink of war.

The new information suggests that they may have escalated to an even more serious turn of events had the PAF bomb hit the Brigade Headquarters when the top commanders were inside.


After the dogfight between the two air forces, Pakistani military spokesperson Maj. Gen. Asif Ghafoor claimed that the PAF had intentionally dropped bombs near important military installations (and not at them) to show their capability.

Two days later, on 29 February, Ghafoor said Pakistan knew who was at the Brigade Headquarters when “they intentionally dropped the bombs near it”.

Also read: After Balakot, Pakistani & Indian air forces are now fighting war of uniform patches

Indian defence sources, however, told ThePrint that radio chatter picked up by Indian forces made it clear that the real plan of the PAF was to hit Indian military assets. The sudden appearance of IAF MiG-21s from across the Pir Panjal range thwarted the plan, they said.

At the same time, the sources said the presence of the senior commanders in the area was a matter of chance and something Pakistan couldn’t have known. Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. Singh was there to review the situation near the Line of Control amid suspicions that Pakistan would try and respond to the Balakot air strike.

Indian Army sources explained Ghafoor’s 29 February claim saying Pakistan may have learnt about the visit of the top commanders to the Rajouri Brigade Headquarters as the Northern Command had tweeted news about the visit on 28 February.




NorthernComd.IA

✔@NorthernComd_IA

#ArmyCdrNC visited troops deployed in forward areas along LC in #Rajouri Sector; reviewed operational preparedness; complimented all ranks for their high morale & aggressive domination of LC. @adgpi @PIB_India @SpokespersonMoD


917
10:54 AM - Feb 28, 2019

237 people are talking about this


https://theprint.in/defence/indian-...fore-paf-bomb-fell-in-compound-27-feb/241324/

The rumor here in Pakistan was that it was Indian army chief, who was present in Brigade HQ, when the bombs fell in its compound. This news contradicts it.

 

[CriticalThought]

Thank you, a sobering reply. Here are some quick thoughts:

1. DGISPR should have released more damning details, the failure to do so was not the fault of our media (which can never compare in the first place to India's), but the fault of the military establishment

2. To get rid of the enemy within, clear policies need to be instituted. Like all military personnel beyond a certain rank cannot send their kids or themselves abroad as long as they live. Like creating a list of the people who are serving other masters. If you draft a plan, I can try my best to get it to Imran Khan.

3. If this was 65, 71 is awaiting us sooner or later. We have to take concrete steps to be ready for that challenge and learn from history.

Thanks again for a thought provoking reply.

Tell Imran Khan to please deliver on a one point agenda: give world class primary and secondary education to our children, based on a syllabus that seeks to make them pious Muslims, staunch Pakistanis, and arms them with critical thinking, rationality and creativity. As a first step, this one thing will go a long way in healing this nation and making it stronger.

Dear! The way you tried to explain the basics of semi conductors - well its a defence forum not a physics class.

Are you trying to say that Chinese or Pakistani engineers are not aware of these petty terms????

The military only go for end product - if it jams, covers the frequencies and bandwidth of adversaries than we are good to go.

Due to Qatar factor and the fact Rafale is been flying for a long time, we can spy upon the characteristics of its EW suite and then simply buy the stuff that it neutralizes.

Remember, France is all about war economy. It does these cheap marketing stunts and sell things without strings to get money. Otherwise, its simply on par with other european nations and we have good market in italy and spain.

And then I dont need to waste my time with french. Why should I? I am just competing with Indians who are into buys international toys and all we have to do is to get a toy form somewhere that offers deterance.



Nothing officially is available about PL-15. But considering its size and Chinese tech everyone is speculating longer ranges on par with Meteor.

You have the full mental capacity of becoming a top notch cook. You understand there are components, and you need to mix them up. I would encourage such natural talent. Why are you wasting your time in a defence forum?

Meanwhile I am sick and tired of cluebies who are fed information and come here acting like they shot down the entire Indian Western Command.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

Perfect my foot---. The ACM was happy with what he had done---if it was not for the reaction of the public and the juniors---he was satisfied.

The majority world is shocked at india's incompetence---. The americans and israelis knew what pakistan had---and the Paf gave them the details by showing off---.

Read this posts--- Today at 4:02 PM#30 ---and there are others like this one---.

We gave away our secrets for nothing---just for a little show & pomp---.

1. How you concluded that ACM was satisfied on that night of 26th Feb? To me this is once again your utter hatred towards PAF and nothing else. There was never a single gesture from ACM to hint something like that let alone any word.

2. American and Israeli knew what we had ... so why to make a completely self-defeating argument that we gave them away the "details" by showing off?? If they knew they knew! Let it remain there. According to you if PAF don't do anything it is coward and if it does then it is showing off. Do you see how absurd your claims are?

3. Which secret specifically you referring to? If you are talking about 27th Feb and dowing of 2 IAF jets then let me inform you that tactics are develop to deploy and not to keep secrets.

And please there is something known in military literature as "escalation ladder" .... try to read something about it.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I am not trivializing Rafale or its SPECTRA EW suit and my point about having faith is that our reaction should not always be knee-jerk and panic. Members have done that with the MKIs, no doubt a potent platform, which also is not without vulnerabilities.

Rafale is a potent capability that provides high survivability and the promise of mission success to its air crews, however let's also keep in mind that we don't intend to counter Rafale with JF-17s only. When the air force fights, it operates as system. No matter what kind of EW and suppression capabilities you put on a fighter aircraft in the 4/4.5 generation, they can be negated/countered by mission-specific platforms such as AEW&C and EW assets that are in service.

The task of these force multipliers is to operate in a dense EW environment. Secondly, Pakistan has to focus on ensuring that the communications between its fighter and auxiliary fleet (AEW, EW platforms) are secure and not susceptible to jamming which would allow for a high degree of operational freedom at least in the interdiction role.

Coming to the point about the ability of Rafale in strike roles with active jamming/cancellation, that is a concern but it isn't a 100% guarantee of success. "Implementation of active cancellation techniques is extremely difficult due to the complex processing requirements and the difficulty of predicting the exact nature of the reflected radar signal over a broad aspect of an aircraft, missile or other target."

Operating over an airspace with ground based SAM systems with such capability has been shown to be effective (thus the high survivability and success quoted by the French in their Rafale operations in the Sahil, Libya and Afghanistan where the primary threat is from MANPADs and ground based SAM systems), however in an airspace with Over The Horizon AESA radars, its not that simple.

If Pakistan has to contend with the unknowns of Rafale and SPECTRA, the same goes for India operating against wholly Chinese and Pakistani developed systems.

Point being that while we are not discounting the potency of Rafale, we need to realize its not an impossibility to counter and operate against either.

Thanks to Katar AF Rafaels might not be that much unknown quantity to PAF!!!! Don’t know about the others, but the El Sani family has been Sa’dik folks since the Ottoman times....

Follow the trend-line not head lines - President Bill Clinton

The trend-line is in Pak’s favor!!! By the by, Israil won’t give anything to India that might be deadly threatening to China....

Thank you, a sobering reply. Here are some quick thoughts:

1. DGISPR should have released more damning details, the failure to do so was not the fault of our media (which can never compare in the first place to India's), but the fault of the military establishment

2. To get rid of the enemy within, clear policies need to be instituted. Like all military personnel beyond a certain rank cannot send their kids or themselves abroad as long as they live. Like creating a list of the people who are serving other masters. If you draft a plan, I can try my best to get it to Imran Khan.

3. If this was 65, 71 is awaiting us sooner or later. We have to take concrete steps to be ready for that challenge and learn from history.

Thanks again for a thought provoking reply.

1971 requires Mujib, Bhutto, Indira, Kissinger, Brezhnev etc. at the poltical level; Bengali folks at the mass level; colonial heavy drinking womanizer Pak general staffs and Parsi/Jewish/Sikh etc. Indian general staffs with the British traditions etc.!!! None of these ingredients are with India right now....

The point MK is making is that when we had the chance to "mow through them like a hot knife through butter" we didn't have the balls to do so. Not now, not in 65 and in fact, never. Every chance we get, we surrender it. Right now we let Modi win when we could have severely damaged his campaign. We let the MKIs go. We let the sub go. No self-respecting nation would have done these blunders.

@MastanKhan thank you for your analysis.

So, basically, all Pakistan can do is keep defending while it gets chipped off bit by bit. East Pakistan, Siachin, TTP, BLA, MQM, bit by bit, in the long term, the only conclusion is, Pakistan will be chipped away. There is no reposte.

I beg to differ!! Modi is your best bet for you need Firaun, Nemrut, Ebu Lehap, Ebu Jahil etc. as your opponent to maximize the probability of success....

I am not trivializing Rafale or its SPECTRA EW suit and my point about having faith is that our reaction should not always be knee-jerk and panic. Members have done that with the MKIs, no doubt a potent platform, which also is not without vulnerabilities.

Rafale is a potent capability that provides high survivability and the promise of mission success to its air crews, however let's also keep in mind that we don't intend to counter Rafale with JF-17s only. When the air force fights, it operates as system. No matter what kind of EW and suppression capabilities you put on a fighter aircraft in the 4/4.5 generation, they can be negated/countered by mission-specific platforms such as AEW&C and EW assets that are in service.

The task of these force multipliers is to operate in a dense EW environment. Secondly, Pakistan has to focus on ensuring that the communications between its fighter and auxiliary fleet (AEW, EW platforms) are secure and not susceptible to jamming which would allow for a high degree of operational freedom at least in the interdiction role.

Coming to the point about the ability of Rafale in strike roles with active jamming/cancellation, that is a concern but it isn't a 100% guarantee of success. "Implementation of active cancellation techniques is extremely difficult due to the complex processing requirements and the difficulty of predicting the exact nature of the reflected radar signal over a broad aspect of an aircraft, missile or other target."

Operating over an airspace with ground based SAM systems with such capability has been shown to be effective (thus the high survivability and success quoted by the French in their Rafale operations in the Sahil, Libya and Afghanistan where the primary threat is from MANPADs and ground based SAM systems), however in an airspace with Over The Horizon AESA radars, its not that simple.

If Pakistan has to contend with the unknowns of Rafale and SPECTRA, the same goes for India operating against wholly Chinese and Pakistani developed systems.

Point being that while we are not discounting the potency of Rafale, we need to realize its not an impossibility to counter and operate against either.

The engineering product literature is based on the best favorable case sceneries to optimize quarter end profit margins!! The bonus of the top management depends on that and orders are passed down accordingly....

Mathematicians assume everything but responsibility.....

Here is the situation. Pakistan doesn't have semi-conductor manufacturing. Consequently, PAF has zero knowledge and expertise of sensor manufacturing. They do not understand the state of the art in the field. Which means they don't even understand the extent of French capability. They cannot make a good judgement call on characteristics such as component density, the semi-conductor band gap, power efficiency etc. Without knowing the hardware, they will assume characteristics such as radar temperature that go into computations of radar performance.

Next, Pakistan has no AESA radar manufacturing facility. This means PAF has zero knowledge about the subtlety of AESA characteristics in state of the art systems. How many T/R modules can be fit in a given space? What types of beams can be formed and independently controlled? They may have experience with Chinese systems, but what is the state of the art? Without intimate knowledge in this area, tactics such beaming, exploiting the radar notch become suspect.

Pakistan has not much research into detection algorithms. Maybe some at NUST but certainly not world beating. Today there is a huge body of research that looks at non-Gaussian characteristics of radar response. And partners of Dassault hold extensive IP in this area. They literally define the state of the art.

Here is what PAF us actually capable of. It buys electronics off the shelf and is given a manual detailing capabilities. In order to maintain manufacturer warranties and agreements, it must operate them within specified parameters. They develop their tactics on top of that and are limited in what they achieve as a result. Understand this: PAF is only capable of achieving what its suppliers allow it to achieve. No more and no less.

With Rafale, Dassault's reputation is at stake. It will do everything to guarantee its success against PAF. It has much deeper relationships with suppliers like SAAB. Its engineers understand SAAB systems better than PAF.

This is what PAF is really up against.

Pak’s good friends China and Turkey are intensely playing with GaN technology, algorithms etc. with their best minds for their own sake!!! Pak can always leverage that...

Its not all black and white. The issue lies in indecisive leadership and also the pressures of our allies/friends/powers.

In 65 our plan would have mauled the IAF if not for leadership change at the last minute and the usual self serving suckups foiling our plans. The the IAF behaved the same way it did on the 27th.

In 71 the IAF came back well trained and will a plan, yet we stuck to ours and survived an onslaught.
However, the enemy was able to take the narrative of us attacking their airfield as the trigger to war and they could have repeated it this time as well.

The problem is that when the National leadership has decided that we shall not provoke an all out war and are only engaging in “aggressive diplomacy” then the engagement has to be controlled and strict RoEs adhered to.

Yes, the PAF could have brought down many more IAF aircraft that way by crossing into India deeper but the idea was to not take unnecessary risks both tactically and diplomatically.

The mistake made later had nothing to do with the PAF but with the usual failure of our foriegn office and associated fat flabby corrupt bureaucrats who were unable to wrestle a narrative properly everywhere.

The mistake is our media incapable of pushing a brainwashed narrative like theirs does.

But the crucial mistake was made years earlier when Pakistan was made.. and we never got rid of the ethnic lines or self serving sycophants who took power and looted our coffers throughout.

There are still personnel within the PAF who may have let their American handlers know of any plans.. who may warn the Indians.. there are those who would roll away and bug out at the first sign of a BARS radar showing up on their RWR.. and there are those that made millions by fleecing the PAF for spare purchases or useless equipment.

As long as they and the many remain in our society, India had, has and will continue to defeat us in wars no matter how many small battles we win.

Only the paranoid survives - Andy Grove, a founding father of Intel Inc. and a holocaust survivor

Pak IMO is getting into a paranoid mode....

I am not trivializing Rafale or its SPECTRA EW suit and my point about having faith is that our reaction should not always be knee-jerk and panic. Members have done that with the MKIs, no doubt a potent platform, which also is not without vulnerabilities.

Rafale is a potent capability that provides high survivability and the promise of mission success to its air crews, however let's also keep in mind that we don't intend to counter Rafale with JF-17s only. When the air force fights, it operates as system. No matter what kind of EW and suppression capabilities you put on a fighter aircraft in the 4/4.5 generation, they can be negated/countered by mission-specific platforms such as AEW&C and EW assets that are in service.

The task of these force multipliers is to operate in a dense EW environment. Secondly, Pakistan has to focus on ensuring that the communications between its fighter and auxiliary fleet (AEW, EW platforms) are secure and not susceptible to jamming which would allow for a high degree of operational freedom at least in the interdiction role.

Coming to the point about the ability of Rafale in strike roles with active jamming/cancellation, that is a concern but it isn't a 100% guarantee of success. "Implementation of active cancellation techniques is extremely difficult due to the complex processing requirements and the difficulty of predicting the exact nature of the reflected radar signal over a broad aspect of an aircraft, missile or other target."

Operating over an airspace with ground based SAM systems with such capability has been shown to be effective (thus the high survivability and success quoted by the French in their Rafale operations in the Sahil, Libya and Afghanistan where the primary threat is from MANPADs and ground based SAM systems), however in an airspace with Over The Horizon AESA radars, its not that simple.

If Pakistan has to contend with the unknowns of Rafale and SPECTRA, the same goes for India operating against wholly Chinese and Pakistani developed systems.

Point being that while we are not discounting the potency of Rafale, we need to realize its not an impossibility to counter and operate against either.

In Hindu faith system, one God’s boon can very much get another one’s curse!! And, they have Gods by tons!!! Hence, according to Hindutuva ideologue Swamy, a Hindu mind is always in a state of conflict for the plurality of purposes!!! Over reliance on Rafael (due to Modi/BS/Ambani etc.) might work against them...

As for the Muslins, Ve Kharihi Ve Sherrihi Minallahi Tevala - both good and bad are with the permission from Allah-u Azimushshan. HIS Riza is in Khair, but Irade is in both Khair and Sher...

 

[HawkEye27]

You have the full mental capacity of becoming a top notch cook. You understand there are components, and you need to mix them up. I would encourage such natural talent. Why are you wasting your time in a defence forum?

Meanwhile I am sick and tired of cluebies who are fed information and come here acting like they shot down the entire Indian Western Command.

Typical approach when loosing an argument

I don’t need to show off my technical skills and vocabulary just to impress the folks here. You like to call me a cook, its up to you.

But my point remains simple, if Indians can get something from french then we can get its counter from various other sources.

Rafale will tilt the balance, yes temporarily. But things don’t remains much like that for long. Take it or simply keep praising your french masters

And no body is claiming we blew up the whole Western Command of IAF. But we got em with their pant down, thats a big Yes!!!!

 

[Zulfiqar]

Its not all black and white. The issue lies in indecisive leadership and also the pressures of our allies/friends/powers.

In 65 our plan would have mauled the IAF if not for leadership change at the last minute and the usual self serving suckups foiling our plans. The the IAF behaved the same way it did on the 27th.

In 71 the IAF came back well trained and will a plan, yet we stuck to ours and survived an onslaught.
However, the enemy was able to take the narrative of us attacking their airfield as the trigger to war and they could have repeated it this time as well.

The problem is that when the National leadership has decided that we shall not provoke an all out war and are only engaging in “aggressive diplomacy” then the engagement has to be controlled and strict RoEs adhered to.

Yes, the PAF could have brought down many more IAF aircraft that way by crossing into India deeper but the idea was to not take unnecessary risks both tactically and diplomatically.

The mistake made later had nothing to do with the PAF but with the usual failure of our foriegn office and associated fat flabby corrupt bureaucrats who were unable to wrestle a narrative properly everywhere.

The mistake is our media incapable of pushing a brainwashed narrative like theirs does.

But the crucial mistake was made years earlier when Pakistan was made.. and we never got rid of the ethnic lines or self serving sycophants who took power and looted our coffers throughout.

There are still personnel within the PAF who may have let their American handlers know of any plans.. who may warn the Indians.. there are those who would roll away and bug out at the first sign of a BARS radar showing up on their RWR.. and there are those that made millions by fleecing the PAF for spare purchases or useless equipment.

As long as they and the many remain in our society, India had, has and will continue to defeat us in wars no matter how many small battles we win.

The moles and the traitors are not just in the military but strategic organizations as well.

Won't go into details but two high level moles were caught working for a western country. One was a former PA one star.

While the other was a civvie who got cultivated while he was studying abroad in a western country. He rose to a senior position here.

Some of our programs could be considered compromised from western country perspective.

One of the reasons I am glad that more people are sent to China instead of western countries.

 

[SecularNationalist]

I was told few days ago that Mi-17 was an A-A kill.While Abhinundun was busy in valley flying (trying to play cool by doing low flying and surprising Paf) his wingman was flying high (who himself was later locked by Paf),as soon as he had a target,he fired missile and the target turned out to be Indian Mi-17.

Well i have been told by the indians here is that the pilot of Mi-17 forgot to switch on his friend and foe identification system and as a result the indian SAM battery on the ground hit him.
From where did you get your info and how credible it is?

Thank you for your reply. I understand that it may be possible to meet them in the EW arena, more or less. However, the kinematics, the aerodynamics and the BVR capability of the Rafale, when combined, gives them a decisive edge to shoot first, and from a better vantage. We don't have anything to counter this. That's a technical bottleneck IMHO.

Rafale will tilt the balance, yes temporarily. But things don’t remains much like that for long. Take it or simply keep praising your french masters

Are rafales any better and advanced than the current SU-30 MKI,s they have in their inventory?Su-30 is a beast.I don,t think rafales makes a difference .The problem lies in their pilot training and morale.Also the maintenance if their fighter jets is poor.

 

[HawkEye27]

Are rafales any better and advanced than the current SU-30 MKI,s they have in their inventory?Su-30 is a beast.I don,t think rafales makes a difference .The problem lies in their pilot training and morale.Also the maintenance if their fighter jets is poor.

Rafale has some advantages

-Lower RCS than Su30
-Meteor Factor which is way ahead of Adder
-Better EW as Su30 is a blend of Russian, Israeli, French and Local Indian sensors where as Spectra is a well integrated EW suite

 

[Talon]

Well i have been told by the indians here is that the pilot of Mi-17 forgot to switch on his friend and foe identification system and as a result the indian SAM battery on the ground hit him.
From where did you get your info and how credible it is?

I was told this by a Paf pilot ofcourse,I wasn't sure whether to believe it but then this article claims the same,so it could be true,after all each claim of India is a fabrication so I would believe Paf rather than Iaf.

 

[Arsalan 345]

Some people dont know what SOWs are and dont grasp simple physics..its simple physics that a Indian fighter doing a routine flight over IOK can dash And be in Pakistani territory in under a minute..thus any such thing as absolute interception is simply IMPOSSIBLE

SOW weapons means that by staying inside IOK fighters can drop bombs that can travel all the way into KPK. Balajot is only 49km from IOK..a SOW has a minimum range of 50-60km. Spice 2000 advertised a range of 100km(their youtube official video)

What would you have done SAMs to intercept fighters in indian territory ??.. Also you would have to bring sams close enough to be hit by arterllery fire(~40km)

Very long range SAMs at >60km are not as effective anyway

Bottom line
Indka launched a SOW strike..both countries can do it for the foreseeable future no matter how many SAMs are added ..

When it comes to SAMs..if there is an option to choose(due to limited resources) every country will choose fighter due to it's flexibility and multipurpose use unless it lacks the man power to use it than SAM will be the choice

a fighter jet even flying subsonic can enter Pakistan territory from airbases in IOK under 6minutes ..even CAP in air will have problem catching them everytime, forget about a scramble

I am no expert but this is physics

Distance between srinagar and Azad Kashmir 88km
Speed of sound at 30,00 feet 1100km
Distance covered at subsonic speed per minute 18km
Time to reach from Srinagar to Azad Kashmir 4 minutes

Sir I am not worried about sow attack.both air forces can use sow.my point is all out attack and kindly notice that indian fighter jets intruded deep in our territory.how can we defend ourselves with large number of intruding fighter jets? We can't abandon idea of Sams just because it can't intercept sow.current situation demands better protection against incoming indian jets.they are primary air defence against intruding fighter jets.pakistani fighter jets can't stop intruding indian jets everytime.you also mentioned distance and it clearly shows the need of sams.this logic that sow can be used from indian airspace is wrong.practically India can Target us from their territory but they want chest thumping that's why they intruded during balakot.idea is to check pakistani air defence systems.their next level of provocation is to attack air bases and finally war.war is coming.to protect our skies,we must buy more sams.i don't think that India will attack using sow from their own airspace.they want to create fear and that's why intruded during balakot.they know we have less number of sams and this is what they want.

 

[CriticalThought]

Typical approach when loosing an argument

I don’t need to show off my technical skills and vocabulary just to impress the folks here. You like to call me a cook, its up to you.

But my point remains simple, if Indians can get something from french then we can get its counter from various other sources.

Rafale will tilt the balance, yes temporarily. But things don’t remains much like that for long. Take it or simply keep praising your french masters

And no body is claiming we blew up the whole Western Command of IAF. But we got em with their pant down, thats a big Yes!!!!

I can't do anything about your inability to understand simple English: EW is not about making a shopping list and going on a buying spree. It's not that you don't need to show off your technical knowledge. It's more the case that you have none. Why do you insist on showing off your lack of understanding? Quit this nonsense and go do something else.

For more astute readers who want to understand the details, here is the first curved ball: not much is actually known in open source literature about Rafale's capabilities. We are left guessing about key aspects such as:

1. Does it utilize LPI radar? We must assume it does. Which company sells an RWR that can detect LPI radars? Answer: no one publically claims to do this. Detecting LPI radars is a distributed detection and computation problem. You need sensors dispersed in space and communicating with each other to ascertain with any degree of certainty whether an LPI radar is emitting. Now if the radar is using very thin beam, the problem just became harder. This problem cannot even be solved by a single type of sensor. You need sensor fusion to correlate incoming radar energy with signals in other parts of the spectrum. How successful would this be? We don't know. The makers of aircrafts such as F-35 haven't shared these details with anyone. This technology is highly classified and is simply unavailable on the market. You need to create a custom solution. And you need very intelligent people in large numbers to attack this problem from multiple angles to come up with more types of solutions. And then you need to be able to manufacture that solution. Pakistan simply doesn't have the industry for it.

That was simply one aspect of LPI radar. There are many such problems that Rafale brings for the enemy. And this moron @tipu_ssw wants to go on a shopping spree to cancel Rafale's EM radiation. This thread describes the causes behind such a pattern of thought:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistaniat-and-its-remedy.559533/

 

[ziaulislam]

Sir I am not worried about sow attack.both air forces can use sow.my point is all out attack and kindly notice that indian fighter jets intruded deep in our territory.how can we defend ourselves with large number of intruding fighter jets? We can't abandon idea of Sams just because it can't intercept sow.current situation demands better protection against incoming indian jets.they are primary air defence against intruding fighter jets.pakistani fighter jets can't stop intruding indian jets everytime.you also mentioned distance and it clearly shows the need of sams.this logic that sow can be used from indian airspace is wrong.practically India can Target us from their territory but they want chest thumping that's why they intruded during balakot.idea is to check pakistani air defence systems.their next level of provocation is to attack air bases and finally war.war is coming.to protect our skies,we must buy more sams.i don't think that India will attack using sow from their own airspace.they want to create fear and that's why intruded during balakot.they know we have less number of sams and this is what they want.

who said that?
ISPR clearly said it was only a few mins, while IAF said they didnt intruded and used spice 2000, a SOW(the second statement, first statement was it was 11 min long intrusion

you dont use SOW in deep intrusion, a simple smart bomb or gravity dumb bombs will do fine

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

I understand---.



Hi,

For reason I have stated---being prepared and hitting back the first night ie the 26th and doing the most damage would have been the best option---.

Because you could always blame it on the knee jerk reaction---uncertainty---or any other excuse that you could come up with---. Like we did not know what to do---they kept coming and we kept reacting---they threatened to attack us---we thought they would attack with two aircraft---but they sent in 26---( the number of aircraft coming towards Bahawalpur---.

Even HKhan of Pakdef (Harris Khan, retired PA, real estate developer in Florida with very close contacts in the Pak military and the US defense establishment) said the same thing - should have attacked on that very night.

However, I am just wondering aloud that this may not actually have been the best policy, as the Indians would have set traps for such a knee jerk reaction.

Between, people like HKhan shouldn't exist. We need to ensure our military personnel stay our military personnel. Perhaps we should ban them from going abroad after retirement altogether, as well as their progeny.

 

[HawkEye27]

And this moron @tipu_ssw wants to go on a shopping spree to cancel Rafale's EM radiation

Watch out your language there! I can roast you in a way you can’t even imagine.

Again playing gimmicks with these tech terminologies and west praising syndrome. Do you think LPI is something very new in market? You think Italians, Spanish, American, Chinese are sitting their praising the masters of EW the french?

My logic is very simple, for every problem there is a solution. And if that thing is commercial. Rafale is a commercial product where french are trying to sell it to everyone.

You keep yourself busy with the gimmicks and narrow minded google research.

The guys in PAF EW wings are way ahead of your tunnel vision. They travel the world and interact with folks. Not like you and me sitting on our mobiles.

Accept the fact that Rafale is not end of the world. PAF did kicked Indians ***. They had French Mirages who fucked up the bombing and their Su30 also had french avionics who was busy dodging our missiles.

If Rafale was so out of the world, their sale to Egypt and Qatar would have given Israel and Saudia sleepless nights.