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PAF invited world-famous 'Red Flag' wargames.

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hmm..
couple of questions
Will PAF ever face IAF in red flag?

Hopefully they will, because if PAF have the readiness to join in Red Flag then IAF don't have any problem to accompany them, because it will help to build interoperatibility in future in case of any misunderstanding.

Even if they will play a part of opponent and would like to come head on then only don't worry, both the airforces will keep their radar switch off for obivous reasons. If it shall be F-16s then I guess PAF will have no problem in switching on the radars.

or will they be in same side?

If you see in the light of previous exercise that were held then yes they will because all the contigents were facing only USAF's F-16's and F-15.

it would be interesting in both cases. if this is ever true.. we could expect
4 PAF F-16 MLU M3 in red flag.


I would like the inclusion of JF-17 upon which lots of hopes are rest upon because inclusion of F-16 is of very little use as JF-17 will be PAF's frontline fighter serving the role of F-16s.
 
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LCA I think its fate depends upon its correction of engine errors otherwise it will definetly going to join by 2010.

definitely not! 20 LCA will join IAF at the end of 2011 and FOC in 2013, then other batch of 20 in 2016. it still wont meet IAF ASR. only in 2025 will their be any LCA flying with AESA and kaveir engine with the help of foreigners be flying. so its almost not worth mentioning before 13 years..
 
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LCA before it finishes will be more like a MCA!
 
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Americans aren't that stupid they know our history they wount put us against each other, PAF and IAF on one side now that will be a show to watch. sardar gee and PAF talking in Punjabi the American will like what :lol:
PAF will never put JF-17 on this platform untill the turkey is fully cooked and tasted.
 
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Pakistani F-16s invited to Red Flag

October 13, 2008 (by Asif Shamim) - According to The Times of India, Pakistani F-16s have been invited to participate in the world famous Red Flag exercise held at Nellis AFB.

PAF F-16A block 15 #84709 from 11 sqn is seen landing during Anatolian Eagle 2007/2 at Konya AB on June 19th, 2007. "The US has apparently asked Pakistan whether it will be willing to participate in the Red Flag exercise in 2009. Pakistan's response is not yet known," said a senior official.

Typically the first two of annual Flag exercises are US units only, while the others include coalition forces. The exercises last two weeks. Often two exercises are combined back-to-back, for a four week period.

India see this invite as a "balancing act" after recent return of Sukhoi-30MKI fighters which took part at Red Flag 08-4.

India is more concerned with the military aid support the US is giving Pakistan under the context of the 'War against Terrorism'.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3087.html
 
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Hopefully they will, because if PAF have the readiness to join in Red Flag

care to explain what readiness PAF does not have or should have for the Red flag? :lol: As for switching off radars. i dont even think thats the case though it could be rumors spreading around in BK, though i do know MKI radar was replaced with a older one.
 
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definitely not! 20 LCA will join IAF at the end of 2011

Errr! so sorry but it seems to me that you have committed pretty mistakes in Maths, mate if according to you 20 LCA will going to be inducted to IAF at the end of the 2011, so don't you think first LCA will join the service by 2010, so according to correct calculation suppose even if we assume one LCA join IAF per month basis then you can safely assume that 20 LCA will join IAF by the end of 2011. It is not that we will going to first produce 20 LCA and await its joining by the end of 2011. Even MKI's are following similar pattern and will remain similar for MRCA as well because they will going to join the fleet in bathces.

and FOC in 2013,

You seems to be much more confident about LCA and its joining and hence quoted FOC so easily, even myself wasn't so sure and hence admitted in my previous post that if its fate remain brighter then it will join but you went one step further and determine its FOC, now that's great stuff.

then other batch of 20 in 2016. it still wont meet IAF ASR. only in 2025 will their be any LCA flying with AESA and kaveir engine with the help of foreigners be flying. so its almost not worth mentioning before 13 years..

Ops, You can from now on quote whatever the estimated period you want but I don't want to get into this fight anymore. You can even put LCA's joining by 2050 if it is really giving solace to you.
 
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care to explain what readiness PAF does not have or should have for the Red flag? :lol:

I never suspected PAF's readiness, but just questioned wheather they would like to join Red Flag in the light of repeated US drone missile attacks. Would they really want to share their expertise with a force which constantly attacking Pakistani border provinence and killing innocence Pakistani citizens.

As for switching off radars. i dont even think thats the case though it could be rumors spreading around in BK, though i do know MKI radar was replaced with a older one.

Oh so rumours, you are simply great person seems to me. Why do someone like IAF require to give Media with a false reports and its intentions of switching off radar? It was well known fact and by questioning its creadibility you are doing not good for yourself.
 
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Pakistan May Participate In Red Flag Exercise

Sep 19, 2008

John M. Doyle

The Defense Department is inviting the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) to participate in the Red Flag aerial combat training exercise next year at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.

An Air Force spokesman told Aerospace DAILY there is “a possibility that the Pakistani Air Force will participate in a Red Flag in 2009.” Group Capt. Ahmer Shehzad, the air attaché at the Pakistani embassy, confirmed that the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) had been invited to Red Flag, but he said officials in Islamabad will decide whether to accept the invitation. India, Pakistan’s regional rival – the two countries have fought three wars since they both gained independence in 1947 – participated in Red Flag for the first time this past summer.

First indications of Pakistan’s participation came at a hearing before a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee earlier this week in which State and Defense Department witnesses tried to persuade skeptical lawmakers of the merits of reprogramming more than $250 million in military assistance funding to pay for upgrades to Pakistan’s aging fleet of F-16A/Bs (Aerospace DAILY, Sept. 17).

Bush administration officials insisted that the U.S.-funded upgrades to Pakistan’s 1980s F-16s will be used to counter al Qaeda terrorism – not Indian air superiority.

Air Force Maj. Gen. Burton M. Field, vice director of strategic plans and policy on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff, told committee members the upgrades will allow the PAF to conduct close air support and precision strikes at night – which it can’t do now.

Field said Pakistan’s participation in Red Flag would be preceded by “a series of progressive building block approaches over in their own country, getting them ready for that large scale program.”

source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 091908.xml
 
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Pakistan May Participate In Red Flag Exercise

Sep 19, 2008

John M. Doyle

The Defense Department is inviting the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) to participate in the Red Flag aerial combat training exercise next year at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.


Field said Pakistan’s participation in Red Flag would be preceded by “a series of progressive building block approaches over in their own country, getting them ready for that large scale program.”

source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 091908.xml


if I am not mistaken it costs about 25 million sterling to attend such an exercise so I guess Pakistan may decline or is the US paying for it ?

Regards
 
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if I am not mistaken it costs about 25 million sterling to attend such an exercise so I guess Pakistan may decline or is the US paying for it ?

Regards

its too much sir if its right then why us pay this?
 
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errrrrrr..

FROM FORCEIndia

By Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (retd)


Media reports published in June 2008 indicate that the Tejas programme has made progress towards attaining Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by the end of 2010. Two aircraft doing long distance ferry flights from Bangalore to Nagpur and back, hot weather trials during which the aircraft and its systems have behaved satisfactorily and the first flight of the second Limited Series Production (LSP-2) aircraft with the General Electric F 404 IN 20 engine are small but significant steps towards the objective of introducing the aircraft into IAF squadron service in the next three years or so. To be sure, envelope expansion to the Air Staff Requirement (ASR) specified limits must be completed at the same time. Other reports in the media suggest that the LSP-3 aircraft fitted with an Indo-Israeli Multi Mode Radar (MMR) will fly later this year paving the way for full fledged integration trials of the radar, helmet mounted display and the close combat missile. As the Litening infra-red targeting pod, which gives the aircraft the capability to deliver laser-guided bombs with pin point accuracy, has already been integrated, the aircraft will enter service with useful operational capability as an interim step.

Final Operational Clearance (FOC) expected by the year 2012-2013 time frame, will require integration of a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile, a GSH-23 gun, a data link and a state of the art Electronic Warfare (EW) suite. An Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) sensor has also been planned but no reports have appeared in the media about the status of development. The manner in which data streams from different sensors are fused and presented to the pilot and the crucial data link will determine the tactical situational awareness of the pilot, other members of the formation, controllers in the Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft and controllers on the ground. It is this aspect of a modern aircraft weapon system coupled with off bore sight launch capability available with the helmet mounted display which is of great importance reducing to some extent the value of traditionally used parameters like instantaneous and sustained turn rates and Specific Excess Power (SEP). The extensive work required for FOC is being attempted for the very first time in the country and the learning curve of all those working in the project will be steep. Delays and failures will occur as it is in the very nature of all complex developmental activity wherein the workforce has to learn on the job. The IAF will have to play a lead role in laying down realisable objectives for this phase of the programme. Perhaps the block development model adopted by Lockheed Martin for the F-16 Fighting Falcon could be adopted as it is a time-tested approach. To use space jargon, the final goal can be reached only by a multi-stage and not a single stage to orbit rocket! The developing agencies ADA, DRDO and HAL, it is hoped, will do their utmost to marshal the required human and material resources to complete this very demanding phase of development in a reasonable time frame.

It is vital for the long term interests of the IAF, Indian aeronautics and indeed the nation itself that the Tejas is inducted into frontline squadron service with the capabilities described. As mentioned we will be attempting this level of complex electronic and weapons integration for the first time and the knowledge and experience gained will give our designers and engineers the confidence to move to the next level with the fifth generation fighter, medium transport aircraft and armed helicopter programmes. The benefits of the Tejas programme are already visible in the short period of 22 months taken from metal cutting to first flight of the first prototype of the Intermediate Jet Trainer, Sitara. A large number of Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) developed by both public and private sector industries in the country for the Tejas have been used in this aircraft. HAL has benefited immensely by the experience gained so far, not the least in modern programme management methods and in the use of contemporary aeronautical technologies. The visible movement towards greater indigenous design capability will only accelerate as the Tejas attains FOC. The decision makers in the IAF and the developing agencies must not hesitate to move forward and avoid focusing exclusively on minor shortfalls in performance and maintainability. Only by fielding our own home grown weapon system and operating it in the field for a couple of decades will we be able to build a database on failure rates of important components, form ideas for product improvement and learn other vital lessons to be used in future programmes. Every significant aeronautical power in the world has travelled this route, so why not us? The IAF is justifiably proud of the fact that it is the fourth largest in the world but does not yet operate a single indigenous front line fighter. The time is nigh to do that. An anonymous writer wrote many years ago ‘On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of many millions for at the dawn of victory they lay down to rest never to rise again’. At this stage of the Tejas’s journey towards FOC, we must not hesitate.

Newspaper reports about the search for a new engine due to shortfalls in Tejas’s performance and the slow pace of development of the Kaveri are disquieting for two reasons. Firstly, failure to fly the Kaveri, at least in the flying test bed in Russia, will be a serious mistake. Our tardy progress in the development of the Kaveri can be attributed in large measure to our failure to get the GTX-VS-35 development engines into the air in the late Seventies and early Eighties. At that time, the developing agency did not even contemplate a flying test bed programme nor did the IAF press for it.

If we had had the vision we could have easily done a flying test bed programme because we had the C-119 Packet aircraft in service fitted with an Orpheus jet engine (jet pack) on top of the fuselage. This was done to improve safety while operating in the Ladakh region in case one of the two main piston engines failed, a fairly frequent occurrence at one point in time. Removing the Orpheus engine and replacing it with a GTX engine would have been a relatively simple engineering task and the engine could have been put through its initial paces in perfect safety. The lessons learnt from that exercise would have provided a far better level of understanding and confidence for the engine design team at the launch of the Kaveri programme. Alas! We missed that bus but let us not repeat the same mistake three decades later. Even if there are no plans to fit the Kaveri in a Tejas airframe, we must go through with the flying test bed programme of about 100 hours in Russia. We can call this the Kaveri Mk 1. The benefits to the designers will be immeasurable. When we finally embark on joint development of an engine for the Tejas with a foreign partner, our designers can interact with them with confidence born out of experience.

The second reason for concern is the search for a engine with more than 90kilo Newtons (kN) thrust. There are two main candidate engines which meet this thrust requirement, the US-origin GE-F 414 which powers the F-18 Super Hornet and the EJ-200 which powers the European Typhoon. While performance parameters may be met, there are no free lunches in the world. More thrust means more fuel consumed and if internal and external fuel capacity is not increased, the range and endurance of the Tejas will suffer. Clamour for more internal fuel will definitely arise leading to changes in the airframe, flight controls and undercarriage. The rear fuselage will require modifications to accommodate the new engine and engine health monitoring software will have to be developed and tested. All this is major design activity. Given our protracted decision making process, it will be at least two years from now before work can start on a Tejas airframe. If flight testing time is included we are looking at a five to seven year time frame before FOC can be issued for the re-engined Tejas, say in 2015-2017. This aircraft will be the Tejas Mk 2 and will hopefully meet all IAF specified performance parameters.

In my view it will be better to plan three separate tracks, the first track leading to FOC with all capabilities mentioned earlier for the Tejas with the GE F-404 IN 20 engine. We can call this aircraft the Tejas Mk 1. Efforts to reduce airframe weight, drag and improve installed thrust should be pursued with vigour. This will be a painstaking exercise as no single big ticket item can suddenly improve aircraft performance. If this exercise is done diligently we may end up with an aircraft with very small shortfalls in the performance the IAF is looking for. The IAF may well order more than the 40, being contemplated today. In terms of priority track one should be the highest priority.

The second track should be for the re-engined Tejas Mk 2 which can be produced in the required numbers by 2020 or so. Finally, in the third track we can look at Tejas Mk 3 fitted with the Kaveri Mk 2 engine jointly developed with a foreign partner in the 2025 time frame. This aircraft should have Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. By then the indigenous Airborne Early Warning programme should have been completed and AESA know how will be available to our radar designers. Software upgrades to the Mission Computer (MC) based on the experience of operating the Tejas Mk 1 in service could also be done at the same time.

The LCA, Kaveri and MMR programmes have always received generous support from the Government of India, regardless of the political hue of the party in power at the Centre. Developmental problems and lack of human resources leading to time overruns and IAF concerns over falling force levels have given the average citizen the impression that precious money is being spent on a wasteful programme. Nothing could be farther from the truth which is that induction of the Tejas is absolutely necessary for the future of Indian aeronautics. The media will definitely make caustic comments about how the nation has taken four decades to develop an indigenous fighter which is already obsolete and thousands of crores have gone down the drain. The aeronautical community should maintain a smug silence because what would have been achieved by 2025 could not have been done anywhere else in the world for a development cost of between three and four billion dollars while at the same time building strong and vibrant aeronautical design and manufacturing capability in the country. Chak de Tejas!

The writer has spent nine years in various capacities with the LCA programme and is the author of the recent book, ‘The Tejas Story’

A Complete News Magazine on National Security
 
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its too much sir if its right then why us pay this?

Because its a logistic nightmare and usually such exercise are very expensive and each country participating pay their expenses.

Maybe Muradk can explain better.

Regards
 
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Because its a logistic nightmare and usually such exercise are very expensive and each country participating pay their expenses.

Maybe Muradk can explain better.

Regards



Anatolian Eagle 2007: total number of PAF personal 67 cost of exercise 3 million dollors. And we only went with F-16s, If we goto Red flag the cost is between 5 to 10 million $$. We will send 4 or 5 fighters, Fuel tanker, atleast 3 C-130s to carry men and equipment. Officers get $420/- per day TADA Airmen get $215/- perday and PAF pays for it, Even boarding and lodging is also paid by the visiting members.

The figures I am giving you are from 1995, For every Mirage which is in the air costs Rs45000/- a day . F-16 RS 57,000/- a day per aircraft.
 
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Anatolian Eagle 2007: total number of PAF personal 67 cost of exercise 3 million dollors. And we only went with F-16s, If we goto Red flag the coast is between 5 to 10 million $$. We will send 4 or 5 fighters, Fuel tanker, atleast 3 C-130s to carry men and equipment. Officers get $420/- per day TADA Airmen get $215/- perday and PAF pays for it, Even boarding and lodging is also paid by the visiting members.

The figures I am giving you are from 1995, For every Mirage which is in the air costs Rs45000/- a day . F-16 RS 57,000/- a day per aircraft.

thanks sir i know you answer us

now i ask sir how much important is to go there and what we get affter all this ?
 
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