PAF & IAF weapons procurement delay

[Abingdonboy]

dude....your procurement and induction process is so slow and convoluted that by the time you actually induct them into squadrons and they are operational we will probably already be inducting new aircraft into our inventories

Another all too convenient "truth" many fanboys here like to parade around and let's just ignore the inherent differences in scale and procurement processes of India and Pakistan. By the way I've been hearing about Pakistan getting the J-10s and J-11s since before I joined PDF but whilst India makes tangible force additions, Pakistan speculates.

What aircraft will you be inducting when the Rafale starts being delivered to the IAF? Will it be as capable as the Rafale? Nope. So what is your point exactly?

Geo political situation hasnt changed much. Our policies have been fairly the same since that time.

On the contrary, India is the fastest growing large economy on the planet and ISAF are pulling out of Afghanistan and the West are thus less reliant on keeping Pakistan "on side" so your policies may have remained stable but the world has changed around you.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Another all too convenient "truth" many fanboys here like to parade around and let's just ignore the inherent differences in scale and procurement processes of India and Pakistan. By the way I've been hearing about Pakistan getting the J-10s and J-11s since before I joined PDF but whilst India makes tangible force additions, Pakistan speculates.

Nope! Pakistan evaluated the FC-20/J-10 platform but there was never talk on official level of procuring them. 36 FC-20s were offered to Pakistan just immediately following the United States' offer for F-16C/D Block 52 aircrafts (18 of which we inducted following an agreement signed in the same year as these aforementioned exercises with French)

What you 'hear' is talk on PDF circles. This is a defense forum. On official (PAF) level it is not their modus operandi to just talk away. A lot of the deals lack noise. Agreements are made and then procurement takes place. It is india which keeps talking about MRCA - the MRCA discussions went on and on well before even I joined the forum. The tender took forever, now that india has agreed to the Rafale - there still seems to be budget issues as well as issues vis a vis the agreement

India to decide on Rafale fighter jet deal only after March| Reuters

What aircraft will you be inducting when the Rafale starts being delivered to the IAF? Will it be as capable as the Rafale? Nope. So what is your point exactly?

a fleet of new as well as existing F-16s that were modernized would suffice and keep your newer generation aircrafts in check for the time to come.....What is YOUR point by asking this question? I was just commenting that india's procurement process is slow and incredibly convoluted. We can clearly see that on display. Not our problem though.

On the contrary, India is the fastest growing large economy on the planet and ISAF are pulling out of Afghanistan and the West are thus less reliant on keeping Pakistan "on side" so your policies may have remained stable but the world has changed around you.

this is why you indians always give me a good chuckle.....I think its you indians caught in some kind of time warp. Dont you agree?

Here's a reality check for you. Take it how you want to. The reality is that Pakistan predicted all that is happening back in 2001.......literally every play by play has gone as we predicted they would, and that is why NATO/ISAF needs Pakistan for its exit strategy from Afghanistan........your country's role is irrelevant now, reduced only to a ceremonial "feel good" one...but we digress!

 

[Abingdonboy]

The tender took forever, now that india has agreed to the Rafale - there still seems to be budget issues as well as issues vis a vis the agreement

Budget was never an issue, the sticking point(s) has been about liability. Anyway this appears to have been cleared up now.

What is YOUR point by asking this question? I was just commenting that india's procurement process is slow and incredibly convoluted

Perhaps from a Pakistani perspective where not only does your military call the shots in terms of procurement but there is no level of scrutiny or due diligence or even a global tender. You guys buy off the shelf in government to government deals-easy, simple and fast.

NO WONDER you find India's system where they go for global multi-party open tenders often involving significant offsets, ToT and licensed production cumbersome and slow but then who is the real winner long term, I think you can answer that.

Here's a reality check for you. Take it how you want to. The reality is that Pakistan predicted all that is happening back in 2001.......literally every play by play has gone as we predicted they would, and that is why NATO/ISAF needs Pakistan for its exit strategy from Afghanistan........your country's role is irrelevant now, reduced only to a ceremonial "feel good" one...but we digress!

Now THIS makes me chuckle, a lot of Pakistanis seem to think the world revolves around Afghanistan and the conflict in there, you've "won" (ISAF are leaving so you are free to claim it as such but this only provides to the world you have been double dealing with the West the entire time despite your most ardent denials) but so what? Everywhere else Pakistan's presence is hardly noticed, India has, mostly on the back of its economic growth , been able to reduce Pakistan to an irrelevance on the global stage. Whilst you have been "playing" these games for whatever end goal your set yourselves your country has descended into chaos and your image has been tarnished so if you want to chalk this up as a win that is your prerogative.

India is irrelevant in Afghanistan? I don't think this is particularly accurate but even if it is who really cares? Afghanistan is hardly a major interest of India's beyond the security domain.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Budget was never an issue

India delays Rafale deal after exhausting capital budget| Reuters

Perhaps from a Pakistani perspective where not only does your military call the shots in terms of procurement but there is no level of scrutiny or due diligence or even a global tender. You guys buy off the shelf in government to government deals-easy, simple and fast.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the first part. Yes the military calls the shots in terms of MILITARY procurement. The way it should be. Either there's tender or the branches evaluate different systems then choose based on requirements needs and budget. It's worked well for us so far.

NO WONDER you find India's system where they go for global multi-party open tenders often involving significant offsets, ToT and licensed production cumbersome and slow but then who is the real winner long term, I think you can answer that.

by any standard your procurement process is laughably slow, but again - it's not our problem or concern so chuck it


by the way, on ToT

"Dassault, however, has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.

"It would be clinically insane for Dassault to guarantee HAL-built planes. The only way forward for the program is to drop this absurd idea," said Richard Aboulafia, vice-president of analysis at aerospace and defence consultancy Teal Group.
"
India to decide on Rafale fighter jet deal only after March| Reuters

Now THIS makes me chuckle, a lot of Pakistanis seem to think the world revolves around Afghanistan and the conflict in there, you've "won" (ISAF are leaving so you are free to claim it as such but this only provides to the world you have been double dealing with the West the entire time despite your most ardent denials) but so what?

The US and the EU double deal with eachother on a near daily basis - overtly and behind the scenes. Countries do what is in their best interests. Pakistan kept its options open but we took a stand. There wasn't really much double dealing. We took criticism at times but in the end all our predictions came true. Given our extensive experience in Afghanistan they are coming to us again and asking for our help vis a vis exit strategy and road-map. Irritants (read 'indian operatives') have been deleted from the picture and sent to the garbage disposal

India has, mostly on the back of its economic growth , been able to reduce Pakistan to an irrelevance on the global stage.

More chuckle-worthy material from the standard indian. Delusions on full display.

India is irrelevant in Afghanistan? I don't think this is particularly accurate but even if it is who really cares? Afghanistan is hardly a major interest of India's beyond the security domain.

your security interests in Afghanistan have literally been shat on...your project in afghanistan didnt go so well. We'll be taking over from here. thanks.

 

[Abingdonboy]

India delays Rafale deal after exhausting capital budget| Reuters

This report is entirely inaccurate because in 2014 (the date of this article being published) this deal was NOWHERE near being signed as is obvious by the fact the deal is STILL being discussed so the funds earmarked for the Rafale were simply diverted elsewhere last year once it became clear this deal wasn't going to be signed in the 2013-14 finical year.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the first part. Yes the military calls the shots in terms of MILITARY procurement

In Pakistan this is how it works, not in India where the military is subservient to the civilians.

"Dassault, however, has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.

"It would be clinically insane for Dassault to guarantee HAL-built planes. The only way forward for the program is to drop this absurd idea,"

News from a couple of days ago:

Now Only A Question Of How Dassault Underwrites HAL-built Rafales

The Indian government is understood to have made it clear that it is no longer a question of whether Dassault Aviation will underwrite the 108 Rafales that HAL proposes to license-build in Bengaluru (a top MoD official indicated to Livefist that the RFP was explicit about this), but a question of how it will do so. Yesterday's hour-long deliberations at the MoD involved discussions on possible options. In very limited conversations with all sides, the following threads become apparent:

• Dassault and HAL will need to hammer down licensee/licensor modalities that will pave the way for a possibly complex matrix of agreements on the central issue of liability. It's clear now. It is this set of agreements that will provide a solution to the guarantee issue. The question is how long it would take to do this.
• Second, the extent of inspection and post-manufacture testing of equipment at HAL that would be the minimum required for Dassault to underwrite HAL-built jets.
• Whether there are any financial implications to additional understandings between HAL and Dassault for the process of underwriting jets produced on the former's production line in Bengaluru. Also, financial implications of the transfer of liability as a result of any additional agreements between HAL and Dassault.
• Both sides appear committed to finding a solution before Prime Minister Modi's visit to Paris in April, but is that a realistic time-frame? Sources suggest HAL and Dassault have already held extensive discussions on the liability issue and should be in a position to move quickly.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/...medium=twitter


Clearly the situation has changed and both sides have revised their positions as is normal in such negotiations.

 

[farhan_9909]

Our procurement process is not slow but we don't have the funds.

 

[farhan_9909]

whereas pakistani procurement and induction is so fast that you have inducted 50 jf in 8 yrs now that is quite fast
^^^^^^^

The manufacturing of JF-17 Block 1 Started in mid 2009 and and stopped in late 2013 which also include the 1 year delay.

So it took 4 and half years against the target of 3 or 3 1/2.

 

[A2Z]

Procurement of PAF is effected by their limited budget but still they modernize their fleet from time to time. However on the other hand IAF has no problems reguarding the budget, but they are stuck in between either to get the aircrafts or manufacture them indigenously.
Tejas faces this problem, India wanted to do all the work by itself and the result is that even 3 decades later it still not inducted. And now they have put Rafale in same situation, they want HAL to manufacture them on which french aren't agreeing. So to sum up IAF's procurement could be increased easily just by careful planning.

 

[That Guy]

A comparison of defence budgets will show who will have more power. What is Pakistan's defence budget?

Defense budgets aren't a good way of showing power, in fact, they're pretty terrible to show power projection.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Another all too convenient "truth" many fanboys here like to parade around and let's just ignore the inherent differences in scale and procurement processes of India and Pakistan. By the way I've been hearing about Pakistan getting the J-10s and J-11s since before I joined PDF but whilst India makes tangible force additions, Pakistan speculates.

What aircraft will you be inducting when the Rafale starts being delivered to the IAF? Will it be as capable as the Rafale? Nope. So what is your point exactly?

You've been talking about this MMRCA thing since when? 2007? That's a fair delay.
And the man is right, we've inducted 2 new platforms since that date, and are continuing procurement of one of those.
We've got our new batch of F-16s, Jordanian F-16s and an entirely new platform the JF-17 and the next block is due, probably before the Rafale arrives in India we'll be talking about further batches and blocks of the JF-17.

Why this warranted the need for another thread I have no idea.

Also, amateurs on the internet and forums like this have been confirming news of the J-10, J-11 and J-20, Mirages and so on for many years. It's not fair to compare the 'delay' absence of these aircraft from the PAF that were based on rumours, compared to the IAF's 7 year saga about this competition which was supposedly won, but still there's a wait on.

On the contrary, India is the fastest growing large economy on the planet and ISAF are pulling out of Afghanistan and the West are thus less reliant on keeping Pakistan "on side" so your policies may have remained stable but the world has changed around you.

True, India compared to Pakistan has grown faster and at a greater volume, both naturally and in comparison term.
But your part about ISAF pulling out isn't all that relevant. The US and the West is not done in the region that extends from as far as Libya and Nigeria to Pakistan and Afghanistan. You are right that we can't pressure the US in particular as we could back in the mid 2000 era. But things aren't as gloomy as you're saying. And also notice the other change which you're COMPLETELY ignoring. China's on the rise and they're set to become our most vital ally in all sectors and fields, including military and weapons procurement, yes we can't pressure the US into giving us half decent tech, but that's the purpose the Chinese have been and will continue to fulfil.

 

[Plotinium]

Well if war were wons based on budgets, then all afgani taliban be dead in 80's

 

[MilSpec]

You've been talking about this MMRCA thing since when? 2007? That's a fair delay.
And the man is right, we've inducted 2 new platforms since that date, and are continuing procurement of one of those.
We've got our new batch of F-16s, Jordanian F-16s and an entirely new platform the JF-17 and the next block is due, probably before the Rafale arrives in India we'll be talking about further batches and blocks of the JF-17.

Yes, but you seem to be forgetting that we added 88 MKI's, 24 Mig29K's, Upgrade program from Mirage 2000 and Mig29M UPG, along with Indigenous Awacs, and, 23 Mig27 Dare III upgrades, Heavy transport c17, tactical transport C130J and P8I systems in the same timeframe. Sure Rafale is delayed, but such massive evaluation and book order is a first for India too, planning and execution has been shoddy, but nevertheless it is comming soon.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yes, but you seem to be forgetting that we added 88 MKI's, 24 Mig29K's, Upgrade program from Mirage 2000 and Mig29M UPG, along with Indigenous Awacs, and, 23 Mig27 Dare III upgrades, Heavy transport c17, tactical transport C130J and P8I systems in the same timeframe. Sure Rafale is delayed, but such massive evaluation and book order is a first for India too, planning and execution has been shoddy, but nevertheless it is comming soon.

That you did, but the man who was quoted is speaking truth, by the time the Rafale does come round we will also have new aircraft inducted, as might you but that's beside the point but still technically correct.

 

[Gufi]

Pakistani delay reasons.

• Lack of funds
• natural disasters

Indian delay reasons.

• Lack of leadership and decision making
• red tape and kick backs
• lack of communication between different departments
• Constantly over estimating local production capabilities
• civilians interfering in military matters

 

[Jungibaaz]

Pakistani delay reasons.

• Lack of funds
• natural disasters

Indian delay reasons.

• Lack of leadership and decision making
• red tape and kick backs
• lack of communication between different departments
• Constantly over estimating local production capabilities
• civilians interfering in military matters

Some good reasons there. But kickbacks are also an issue for us, they're very well hidden in the military, but they're there and they're ugly.