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PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming - TO BE CONFIRMED

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Where did I say that they are used in beavily contested airspace sir.
You stop the advance when enemy armor is advancing in your territory and if your territory has heavily contested air space then denial of air superiority has failed. So in this case you have bigger problems.
The primary use is anti insurgency operations and secondary anti armor/tactical support.

In a Pak-India conflict we are expecting a heavily contested airspace over the battlefield.

BTW history of attack helicopters stared with the Cobra, at that time the US was fighting an insurgency in Vietnam and they needed to escort their helicopter borne forces. The fighters were too fast for the helicopters, therefore they needed something slower.

Helicopters are also very effective in mountainous terrain and in a jungle environment. They are also very good with expeditionary forces - you can easily set up a base if you are fighting abroad and put attack helicopters there.
 
In a Pak-India conflict we are expecting a heavily contested airspace over the battlefield.

BTW history of attack helicopters stared with the Cobra, at that time the US was fighting an insurgency in Vietnam and they needed to escort their helicopter borne forces. The fighters were too fast for the helicopters, therefore they needed something slower.

Helicopters are also very effective in mountainous terrain and in a jungle environment. They are also very good with expeditionary forces - you can easily set up a base if you are fighting abroad and put attack helicopters there.
We are on the same page just posturing
 
Gunships and air superiority are both needed, but we need to prioritize what is more important specially when funding is a problem.

Problem is, we are totally neglecting CAS aircraft. They are designed for ground attack, and are far more survivable in contested airspace. Specially if they are equiped with some particular gadgets.
 
The OH-58D bought second hand from the US could also play a very useful role. They are small, light and armed. A scout helicopter that can fight back a bit. Would complement and get the best use out of the Cobras.



Helicopters being used in contested airspace is actually an urban legend. Helicopters are slow and have giant blades easily spotted by modern fighter radars. They are a turkey shoot for any fighter aircraft. Faster low flying CAS aircraft have always been the best bet in a heavily contested airspace.
Helicopters are best when used under cover of darkness to destroy radar sites something the Apache did in Desert Storm otherwise the classic use is based on popping out from behind mountain or hills to attack armored columns. Hit and run gorilla type of attacks, armour protection and transport support are also trades that attack helicopters fulfill.

Hind was procured by Pakistan for a similar role to provide PA commando's enough coverfire for them to land behind enemy lines using the same helicopter.

Problem is, we are totally neglecting CAS aircraft. They are designed for ground attack, and are far more survivable in contested airspace. Specially if they are equiped with some particular gadgets.
Tactical Nuclear Weapons fulfil the role where there is large concentration or a well deployed air defence system to provide protection.

I agree with your Turk president part. I think he still angry on the coup attempt of 2016.
KAI T/FA-50 is a very good option.IIRC GE-F404 was initially an option for JF-17 as well, so if we can get it with RD-93 or instead make a Blk (50+ planes) of JF-17 which covers LIFT and a dedicated strike will be more beneficial instead of just buying off the shelf.
The issue is USA will never transfer the GE-404 engine unless Pakistan purchases something that uses this engine. The aircraft that can be procured are F-18, Gripen, Tejas and KAI T/FA-50. Gripen and Tejas are out so this leaves Pakistan with the options of F-18 and T-50.

Somehow using JF-17 as LIFT option does not seem feasible even if we have mated them with western engines as this aircraft is not designed for such role.

All major Ops are over now. So drones/UCAV and Hinds might be enough for job on western border.
What my understanding is that attack heli can be deployed effectively by PA when PAF has achieved air superiority.
Lets see how things go in the future but keep in mind that Pakistan always considered Afghanistan as strategic depth.

Eaxactly, those are AH-1Fs cobras being upgraded, not AH-1Ws so agrees with what I said.


View attachment 572473
Super Cobra attack helicopter upgrade programme
A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra known as the H-1 programme is underway. The programme calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra and 100 UH-1N utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration, which will operate to beyond 2020. An upgraded cockpit configuration allows easy co-pilot access to the night targeting system (NTS). These are also remanufactured with ‘zero-time’ airframes comprising advanced technology.

The original two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system has been replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration has led to increases in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.

The USMC subsequently decided on new-build rather than remanufactured UH-1Y helicopters and, in February 2008, awarded Bell a contract for the new build of 40 of the proposed 189 AH-1Z helicopters. Four additional helicopters were ordered in September 2008.

First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The AH-1W entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in October 2003. Five AH-1W helicopters were remanufactured to AH-1Z standard and took part in flight testing at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland, US. Sea trials in May 2005 included the first shipboard landing on USS Bataan, Wasp Class amphibious assault ship.

Developmental testing was completed in February 2006 and two test aircraft began operational evaluation (OPEVAL) with the USMC in May 2006. The first production AH-1Z helicopter was delivered to the USMC in January 2007. Phase II of OPEVAL began in February 2008, and the OPEVAL was completed in October 2010. In November 2010, the AH-1Z was approved for the full-rate production. Initial operating capability of the AH-1Z Cobra took place in February 2011.

The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of 145 helicopters required. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).

The government of the Republic of Korea requested a possible foreign military sale of 36 AH-1Z helicopters in September 2012. The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency approved a possible foreign military sale of 15 AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.
 
@Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?
 
@Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?
We need to increase the size of force and assets force size started at Raheel sharif era now time to grow mussle
 
Helicopters are best when used under cover of darkness

This is actually not true. There is no "darkness" in modern combat. You cannot hide behind a tree from an enemy that has fighters in the sky. And we aren't even going to talk about AWACS.

The singular exception is with India, where their fighter planes can hide from radars not only in the dark, but when there is cloud cover.

@Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?

Not to mention that coming genocide India is planning in Kashmir. We cannot just sit and watch that sanguine show. What this means is that, despite the economy and all apparent common sense, we need to grow into a larger military force.

For the army, the way forward, with limited budget, is to follow on the lines of Switzerland / Israel, with a hybrid army. This means we need to recruit a chunk of the army via conscription. I believe IK and the government is aware of this need but does not wish to interfere in army affairs thus has remained silent. It is up to the top brass to realize this need and take it forward.
 
Helicopters are best when used under cover of darkness to destroy radar sites something the Apache did in Desert Storm otherwise the classic use is based on popping out from behind mountain or hills to attack armored columns. Hit and run gorilla type of attacks, armour protection and transport support are also trades that attack helicopters fulfill.

Hind was procured by Pakistan for a similar role to provide PA commando's enough coverfire for them to land behind enemy lines using the same helicopter.


Tactical Nuclear Weapons fulfil the role where there is large concentration or a well deployed air defence system to provide protection.


The issue is USA will never transfer the GE-404 engine unless Pakistan purchases something that uses this engine. The aircraft that can be procured are F-18, Gripen, Tejas and KAI T/FA-50. Gripen and Tejas are out so this leaves Pakistan with the options of F-18 and T-50.

Somehow using JF-17 as LIFT option does not seem feasible even if we have mated them with western engines as this aircraft is not designed for such role.


Lets see how things go in the future but keep in mind that Pakistan always considered Afghanistan as strategic depth.


Super Cobra attack helicopter upgrade programme
A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra known as the H-1 programme is underway. The programme calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra and 100 UH-1N utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration, which will operate to beyond 2020. An upgraded cockpit configuration allows easy co-pilot access to the night targeting system (NTS). These are also remanufactured with ‘zero-time’ airframes comprising advanced technology.

The original two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system has been replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration has led to increases in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.

The USMC subsequently decided on new-build rather than remanufactured UH-1Y helicopters and, in February 2008, awarded Bell a contract for the new build of 40 of the proposed 189 AH-1Z helicopters. Four additional helicopters were ordered in September 2008.

First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The AH-1W entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in October 2003. Five AH-1W helicopters were remanufactured to AH-1Z standard and took part in flight testing at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland, US. Sea trials in May 2005 included the first shipboard landing on USS Bataan, Wasp Class amphibious assault ship.

Developmental testing was completed in February 2006 and two test aircraft began operational evaluation (OPEVAL) with the USMC in May 2006. The first production AH-1Z helicopter was delivered to the USMC in January 2007. Phase II of OPEVAL began in February 2008, and the OPEVAL was completed in October 2010. In November 2010, the AH-1Z was approved for the full-rate production. Initial operating capability of the AH-1Z Cobra took place in February 2011.

The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of 145 helicopters required. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).

The government of the Republic of Korea requested a possible foreign military sale of 36 AH-1Z helicopters in September 2012. The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency approved a possible foreign military sale of 15 AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.
See my post earlier with updated information in regards to the AH-1W upgrade program. It was curtailed already hence makes no sense to buy those as used examples and then try to upgrade them to the Z standard. Better just to buy new choppers for about the same price and upgrade the existing AH-1Fs.
 
well since every body here wants a Block 72 & MRR Radar and used F-16s but what i want is different!

I want MiG-29UPG or better Su-30MKI both FMC bearing Indian insignia ...
Come on @the tallguy u know more than US tell us more what else is coming from our wish list
 
@mingle
@airomerix said 8 MOU so my educated guess is we know 3 of them up-till now.

What i Know? hmm..

I know 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 and 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ Viper Upgrade.
I know these will happen due to exchange of both IDF/AF Pilots.

@pakistanipower
Why not? wishes do come true!
What is you educated baseless guess worth nothing and as for your day dreaming we just started our warm relations with Russia it is too early that Russia will gives us big ticket items (Trust) in near future and also don't forget Indian lobby in Russian Duma @TheTallGuy
 
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