PAF doomed

[Pfpilot]

The title should be Pakistan doomed not just the airforce because as of now the whole of Pakistan seems to be doomed with no light at the end of the tunnel.
On topic if war ever happens, the greastest beating that any of the three departments of the armed forces will receive is going to be the navy followed on by the airforce and as for the army, it cannot sustain war on its own without a running economy which will be completely halted once PN gets wiped out and without an effective aircover which will not be possible once PAF gets blown out. Germany lost because Its airforce was unable to stop the bombing of German cities and factories by the allied forces day in and day out. Unfortunately in Pakistan army takes the major chunk of the budget followed by the airforce. navy which is an equally important if not more part is neglected to the fullest.
But this is what we know already and this is why our focus is on nuclear development and this is why we continue lowering our nuclear threshold.

This is the most important post on this topic good sir. In modern combat, air superiority is the game changer, upon which the results of any conflict depend. Without wresting control of the skies from the adversary, no amount of ground forces, regardless of how advanced their capability is, will make any real progress in war.

It is interesting that while a powerful Air Force could compensate for a weakened and limited army, the PA takes the lion's share of the budget. Which makes it the branch that most closely matches the IA in capability. A comparable capability that is instantly lost once modern net centric warfare necessitates the use of all forces as one fluid and dynamic entity. There is a desperate need to reevaluate the distribution of funds to closely match the needs of the present reality of warfare. Which requires a greater expenditure on the PAF, at the expense of the PA.

The PN on the other hand is the elephant in the room. A force so weak that even the most ardent patriot cannot look beyond its inability to defend the coastline. The moment the coast is blockaded, the rest of the discussion is moot. As the PN section of this forum shows, the navy isn't nearly as interesting to talk about. So while we discuss the merits of the Air Force, everyone is overlooking where any future conflict would be decided. If we lose our coastal supply corridor, the most lethal Air Force and army wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[fatman17]

poor economy means no revitalization of the military - all the major procurement plans - 2025 for all three services are behind schedule. so in that sense - yes doomed.

 

[GoodBoy]

Let me add to my previous post-
Pakistan cannot sustain a war with india using conventional weapons- i stand by it-
But the nuclear factor/ deterrence- and its affects are overwhelming-
The idea of surrender is out of the window now--

in 65 we saved our izzat ourselves- while you were trying hard to take it-
Lets not be overzealous about that-

Now since you were saved of humiliation in 65 you can say anything but no one can change the fact that Pakistan was more than happy choosing a truce over certain defeat and shameful surrender.

About nukes... seems like its mandatory for each Pakistani to mention "Hamare paas noooclear bumb hai, hum fod denge" all the time but couldn't use in Kargil when you knew India has moved its missiles for total annihilation of Pakistan in case it escalates war in wrong dimension.You couldn't even use your AF.

 

[TOPGUN]

Dont wanna annoy anyone, but what the hell PAF is having that can challenge anyone, and the answer is simple "nothing". this would be the case in the future or something would take place for the betterment. I am here for some logical answers with facts

You have some serious reading and homework to do my dear friend alot of reading go read first before opening up such a uncalled for thread.

 

[Windjammer]

Now since you were saved of humiliation in 65 you can say anything but no one can change the fact that Pakistan was more than happy choosing a truce over certain defeat and shameful surrender.

About nukes... seems like its mandatory for each Pakistani to mention "Hamare paas noooclear bumb hai, hum fod denge" all the time but couldn't use in Kargil when you knew India has moved its missiles for total annihilation of Pakistan in case it escalates war in wrong dimension.You couldn't even use your AF.

This, that, would, could, should.....but it didn't.....just like some former Indian warlord was ranting on the absence of IAF during 1962 war with China caused Indian defeat....... may i remind you, during the Kargil conflict, all the fighting took place on the Indian side of LOC....the few times the IAF ventured on the Pakistan side, their tails got flamed.... when there was no fighting taking place on our side, there was no question of Pakistan using any forum of missiles.....and if you want to understand the threat of Pakistani missiles, all the mobilisation and deployment and then remaining paralysed for 12 months on the border should put a lid on it.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

This is the most important post on this topic good sir. In modern combat, air superiority is the game changer, upon which the results of any conflict depend. Without wresting control of the skies from the adversary, no amount of ground forces, regardless of how advanced their capability is, will make any real progress in war. ...........

I disagree Sir. The most important post is this one:

poor economy means no revitalization of the military - all the major procurement plans - 2025 for all three services are behind schedule. so in that sense - yes doomed.

With a collapsing economy, no amount of reallocation of a shrinking pie will keep any service arm viable for meeting its responsibilities. What we need to do first is enlarge the economic pie first and foremost. Only then what you suggest is possible.

 

[Pfpilot]

I disagree Sir. The most important post is this one:



With a collapsing economy, no amount of reallocation of a shrinking pie will keep any service arm viable for meeting its responsibilities. What we need to do first is enlarge the economic pie first and foremost. Only then what you suggest is possible.

Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with you an Mr. Fatman. But considering virtually all of my posts have that same repetitive message, I felt I owe it to this forum to present a viewpoint that deviates at least a little from my usual rambling.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with you an Mr. Fatman. But considering virtually all of my posts have that same repetitive message, I felt I owe it to this forum to present a viewpoint that deviates at least a little from my usual rambling.

Some important messages bear repeating until they are heeded. I would request you to keep on reiterating your message for it is an important one. Sadly, the chances of it being heeded in a timely fashion are not exactly stellar.

 

[Emmie]

Dont wanna annoy anyone, but what the hell PAF is having that can challenge anyone, and the answer is simple "nothing". this would be the case in the future or something would take place for the betterment. I am here for some logical answers with facts

To understand logical answers to your question you need to understand the basic logic behind the purpose & priorities of any given air force in prior. Anyway, PAF primarily offers defence & for that purpose it has got enough. Besides for showing inordinate frugality in the procurement of assets, it's the poor economical condition of your country which thins the list of options.

 

[Storm Force]

PAF DOOMED is NOT the correct term.

PAF limited IS A BETTER anaology.

PAF has enough ASSETS (BVR F16/JF17 & AWCS & SAMS) in its own airspace to GIVE the enemy A HARDTIME/bloody nose)

PAF cannot GO toe to toe IN EVERY POSSIBLE scenario WAR THEATRE THAT MAY DEVELOPE. Its assets are limited in nos and load and range...BUT not in technology. ie F16 & AMRAAM are as good as anything in IAF.

Overall PAF is in better shape to fight the ENEMY than its NAVY which will FALL FIRST but not as strong as its ARMY which in most cases is alomost comparable to INDIA.

meduim term 2013-2020 FAR GREATER INVESTMENT PLANS by the enemy will mean PAF facing the same odds as the NAVY.

unless PAF can pull a rabbit out of the HAT

 

[Cheetah786]

On some other thread Pakistan was claiming it's gonna overtake IAF in 1 or 2 years.

Read that thread again it was IAF claiming that to Indian politicians not PAF.

 

[TOPGUN]

This dumb troll attracting thread needs to be closed as it has no value to make sense in anyway from any angle simply the one who opened it needs to gain much knowledge before just opening his or her mouth without any homework you are in no place to opene a thread be proud of our armed forces be proud of PAF do some reading people before jumping the gun .

 

[Capt.Popeye]

People keep forgetting that IAF has to cover a large area from leh to Andaman thats 3000 kilometers and Bengal to Punjab.
For that reason they need bigger planes..
PAF covers from Khunjarab to Gawadar,thats only 1500 kilometers....hence smaller planes...

LOLLLLLL, Hey Frizzie; only you can come up with such "convoluted Logic"!!!

Large Country, larger borders >>>> "bigger planes"!
Small Country, smaller borders >>>> "smaller planes"!

So; maybe the Swiss Airforce should fly what.......battery-powered RC aircraft from BANANA HOBBIES ?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

This is the most important post on this topic good sir. In modern combat, air superiority is the game changer, upon which the results of any conflict depend. Without wresting control of the skies from the adversary, no amount of ground forces, regardless of how advanced their capability is, will make any real progress in war.

It is interesting that while a powerful Air Force could compensate for a weakened and limited army, the PA takes the lion's share of the budget. Which makes it the branch that most closely matches the IA in capability. A comparable capability that is instantly lost once modern net centric warfare necessitates the use of all forces as one fluid and dynamic entity. There is a desperate need to reevaluate the distribution of funds to closely match the needs of the present reality of warfare. Which requires a greater expenditure on the PAF, at the expense of the PA.

The PN on the other hand is the elephant in the room. A force so weak that even the most ardent patriot cannot look beyond its inability to defend the coastline. The moment the coast is blockaded, the rest of the discussion is moot. As the PN section of this forum shows, the navy isn't nearly as interesting to talk about. So while we discuss the merits of the Air Force, everyone is overlooking where any future conflict would be decided. If we lose our coastal supply corridor, the most lethal Air Force and army wouldn't stand a chance.

The underlined part is the one that really bears thinking about. War-fighting capability today is not so much about how many Squadrons or how many Divisions.
It is about the ability to replace and replenish in times of war. It is about the ability to keep critical Strategic Supplies moving in war-time. The most critical of these is Fuel or simply POL! Any country that produces less of these is even more vulnerable. And desperately needs to keep open the SLOCs open at all times as well as having a resonably wide enough Industrial Base to keep the "wheels of war moving".
How is Pakistan placed in this respect? Not very well, I am afraid. Kargil in 1999 was a case in point. Pakistan was down to 6 days of POL supply, mind you; we're not even talking about Embargoes! Which affect Combat Eqpt. but Commercial Supplies (albeit of Strategic Nature) imported under Commercial contracts.

Has anybody in Pakistan's Strategic Leadership done any worthwhile SWOT analysis in this aspect?

@Pfpilot, 1965 was a wake-up call for India in this matter; it woke up India to the need of both: maintaining security of SLOCs as well as developing atleast a reasonable industrial base to sustain war-fighting capability. Which is seemingly much less "awesome and romantic" than the fancy hardware that Armies posess.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Don't vote for PMLN, i said don't vote for Nawaz sharif party, they are not interested in defense related issues. PPPP is capable for high defense deals, don't vote for PMLN but we should try PTI.