PAF CAS confirmed the SU-30MKI kill in addition to MiG-21 Bison - Alan Warnes

[Flight of falcon]

Doesn't matter if we hit them on the same night or the next day.

However we should have struck hard instead of showing restraint. Had we plastered them on 27th, the morale of the entire Indian nation would've been shattered. You just don't show restraint when you've the upper hand.

War is inevitable, if we thought we'd avoided war then we are living in a fool's paradise...it was better now than late for us.

They have declared their strikes as a success and sold their narrative to their public successfully. Bipin escaped unscathed(Physically)---Just imagine if he'd been struck along with other targets. India would have been forced to a war which it's armed forces at that time were not prepared to fight since their air defenses appeared to be in a state of total disarray. We won't be presented with that opportunity again.

Now, they know our strategy and will learn, adapt and up their game before striking at us again at the time and place of their choosing.

We are over-concerning ourselves with our image as a "responsible state". We are too naive to believe that the world gives a sht. It's a dog's world out there ---the world which applauds the chuckling of the mighty and turns a deaf ear towards the cries of the weak. The world forced Pakistan into taking action against the people who in the past were associated with the Kashmir movement while the same world stays silent on India's brutalities in Kashmir.

This "avoiding escalation" strategy failed in 65 when Ayub refused to take Akhnoor citing the reason that India will be provoked to attack across the international border (which it did regardless); we've committed the same blunder again.

I am not sure about why some people are obsessed with starting the war. I am Uber patriotic but I fear war. Once you go down that slippery slope there are too many unknowns.

I feel we did well without starting something big over a FAILEd airstrike.

Yes Modi took political advantage by claiming 300 dead and F16 shot down but the entire world saw the incompetence of Indian armed forces and the lie they were forced to tow and defend. This itself is very humiliating for a semi professional force.
In this day and age of satellite , drones and technology Indians are forced to prove their claim by quoting a ISPR statement and some computer generated drawings on the paper.
Just for a second think about how stupid this sounds .

Indian forces were left to defend Modi created claims with nothing more than few computer generated drawings and a piece of missile.
I personally believe we cannot win any war against India. At best We will bruise each other equally but our economy will shackle us and push us back decades. At worse we will go down the nuclear path which will be a disaster for everyone in the world .

 

[Psychic]

I am not sure about why some people are obsessed with starting the war. I am Uber patriotic but I fear war. Once you go down that slippery slope there are too many unknowns.

I feel we did well without starting something big over a FAILEd airstrike.

Yes Modi took political advantage by claiming 300 dead and F16 shot down but the entire world saw the incompetence of Indian armed forces and the lie they were forced to tow and defend. This itself is very humiliating for a semi professional force.
In this day and age of satellite , drones and technology Indians are forced to prove their claim by quoting a ISPR statement and some computer generated drawings on the paper.
Just for a second think about how stupid this sounds .

Indian forces were left to defend Modi created claims with nothing more than few computer generated drawings and a piece of missile.
I personally believe we cannot win any war against India. At best We will bruise each other equally but our economy will shackle us and push us back decades. At worse we will go down the nuclear path which will be a disaster for everyone in the world .

Would have agreed with you had our opponent been not India but some other country.

The mad dog they've elected will go to war sooner or later.

He dared to attack a nuclear country---you can't counter insanity with restraint. Many people like yourself would have even argued against the idea of conducting retaliatory strikes had they not taken place---citing the same reason as yours that it could send us back decades.

I am not sure about why some people are obsessed with starting the war.

What PAF did on 27th also had the ingredients to start a war.

One can only speculate what would've happened had IAF's munitions hit their intended target and cause casualties. The reaction of PAF would have been the same which I opined should have been on 27th. Now upon whom you would've pinned the blame for starting a war then?

There were many voices against PAF's retaliation before it happened arguing that it could lead to a full scale war.

Now with NaMo re-elected, let's see what he does after IAF rectifies it's errors.

 

[SIPRA]

I am not sure about why some people are obsessed with starting the war. I am Uber patriotic but I fear war. Once you go down that slippery slope there are too many unknowns.

I feel we did well without starting something big over a FAILEd airstrike.

Yes Modi took political advantage by claiming 300 dead and F16 shot down but the entire world saw the incompetence of Indian armed forces and the lie they were forced to tow and defend. This itself is very humiliating for a semi professional force.
In this day and age of satellite , drones and technology Indians are forced to prove their claim by quoting a ISPR statement and some computer generated drawings on the paper.
Just for a second think about how stupid this sounds .

Indian forces were left to defend Modi created claims with nothing more than few computer generated drawings and a piece of missile.
I personally believe we cannot win any war against India. At best We will bruise each other equally but our economy will shackle us and push us back decades. At worse we will go down the nuclear path which will be a disaster for everyone in the world .

You are perfectly right. People, suggesting a more aggressive path for Pakistan against India, totally fail to recognize our inherent and glare weaknesses in virtually every sphere of statehood including political, economic, technological, military and diplomatic. I rather believe that Pakistan's response was far more aggressive than what its circumstances permitted.

 

[Armchair]

I beg to differ sir. We gave them prompt, completely proportional and it turned out embarrassingly brutal response.
We hit them harder and bolder and We successfully avoided going up the escalation ladder . Starting a war would have been foolish and catastrophic .

You cannot start a war for one missed air attack. Especially when you have managed to humiliate your enemy by proving your seriousness and capabilities.
They hit one target, we hit six. They hit trees in a jungle we hit their trees around brigade headquarters. they came at night we went in broad day light. They attacked with eight aircrafts we went with 24. We delivered our packege and they deliver to us Abhi none done. We delivered embarrassment and humiliation they delivered nothing in return.
Talking about starting a war is easy.... controlling it and suffering cost wise is beyond anyone’s control.

We won a military tactical battle, no doubt. They won the political war at home. That's what the Pak military didn't understand / couldn't understand. They don't have the skill set to understand it.

India will not bother us for the next 2 years. Modi will spend time setting his house in order, IAF will rebuild itself with Rafales. Meanwhile, Iran will be turned into cinders by the US.

The sane strategic thing to do is to spend this time:

1. Rebuilding our economy and infrastructure
2. Destroying the internal enemies such as BLA, PTM and TTP remnants
3. Building strategic depth for long term sustainability, via a new "Great Game" in Afghanistan - a new FATA-like tribal belt on the borders of Pakistan.
4. Inducting whatever weapons we can at a steady pace - whether T-90s from Russia or MiG-35s, or J-10s or submarines, or 54As, or whatever we can get our hands on. Even more surplus Italian / European equipment and French Mirage III/Vs.

 

[IFB]

You are somewhat right; but, I think that, it is not only a matter of knowledge, but also of objectivity in analysis. For carrying out a true analysis, it is necessary to overcome, as far as possible, one's prejudices, by conscious effort; though a human being can never be fully free of certain biases.

My education (more like the lack of it lol) does not allow me to phrase words so eloquently like you...but the bolded part is so spot on.

I have observed that there are many posters on PDF, who appear to be very educated, knowledgeable and intelligent, from their language, communication skills and argumentation. But, to my mind, they inadvertently arrive at wrong conclusions, owing primarily to their inbuilt prejudices, which they are unable to control somehow.

sir they indeed are highly educated, knowledgeable and intelligent...this includes some think tank members as well in this very forum...many are so full of hate that its almost impossible to have a decent conversation with them.

 

[SIPRA]

My education (more like the lack of it lol) does not allow me to phrase words so eloquently like you...but the bolded part is so spot on.

sir they indeed are highly educated, knowledgeable and intelligent...this includes some think tank members as well in this very forum...many are so full of hate that its almost impossible to have a decent conversation with them.

For the first part, I don't think that you lack the communication skills, in any way. I have read many of your posts and they are very illuminating. Thanks, any way. Allah aap ko khush rakhay.

Hatred is also a product of extreme prejudices. It has not much to do with intelligence and education. Rather, these faculties sometimes pronounce the intensity of prejudice and consequent hatred.

 

[MastanKhan]

Doesn't matter if we hit them on the same night or the next day.

However we should have struck hard instead of showing restraint. Had we plastered them on 27th, the morale of the entire Indian nation would've been shattered. You just don't show restraint when you've the upper hand.

War is inevitable, if we thought we'd avoided war then we are living in a fool's paradise...it was better now than late for us.

They have declared their strikes as a success and sold their narrative to their public successfully.
Bipin escaped unscathed(Physically)---Just imagine if he'd been struck along with other targets. India would have been forced to a war which it's armed forces at that time were not prepared to fight ---since their air defenses appeared to be in a state of total disarray.
We won't be presented with that opportunity again.

Now, they know our strategy and will learn, adapt and up their game before striking at us again at the time and place of their choosing.

We are over-concerning ourselves with our image as a "responsible state". We are too naive to believe that the world gives a sht. It's a dog's world out there ---the world which applauds the chuckling of the mighty and turns a deaf ear towards the cries of the weak. The world forced Pakistan into taking action against the people who in the past were associated with the Kashmir movement while the same world stays silent on India's brutalities in Kashmir.

This "avoiding escalation" strategy failed in 65 when Ayub refused to take Akhnoor citing the reason that India will be provoked to attack across the international border (which it did regardless); we've committed the same blunder again.

Hi,

Here is why you don't let go of the 'first time'---. It was already announced---The targeted areas were also mostly known---. You made the enemy feel brave---they completed their targeted goal and then let their media do the rest---.

Paf tried to play the old trick---' we escorted the enemy out of our borders '---.

If it had not been for public and internal outrage---Paf generals were happy of not doing anything else---.

This reaction also showed that the Paf had decidedly become a 'defensive' force.

Now---we both agree on the second day strike---. The Paf had the opportunity to pummel the enemy when it was down---.

Out of COWARDICE---the generals decided to let the biggest prize of them escape as well---the submarine---.

That was a despicable decision by the commander in chief Gen Bajwa---.

The reaction also showed was that the Paf was LOW IN NUMBERS of frontline fighters---.

There are idiots on this defense forum who have claimed the J10's bring nothing to the table---.

For those fools---the J10 brings NUMBERS to the table---which were woefully low on the 26th & 27th---.

The number of frontline fighters in Paf inventory are below the MINIMUM THRESHOLD level---. That number needs to be between 350 + 100 plus mirage 3/5's.

I beg to differ sir. We gave them prompt, completely proportional and it turned out embarrassingly brutal response.
We hit them harder and bolder and We successfully avoided going up the escalation ladder . Starting a war would have been foolish and catastrophic .

You cannot start a war for one missed air attack. Especially when you have managed to humiliate your enemy by proving your seriousness and capabilities.
They hit one target, we hit six. They hit trees in a jungle we hit their trees around brigade headquarters. they came at night we went in broad day light. They attacked with eight aircrafts we went with 24. We delivered our packege and they deliver to us Abhi none done. We delivered embarrassment and humiliation they delivered nothing in return.
Talking about starting a war is easy.... controlling it and suffering cost wise is beyond anyone’s control.

Hi,

young man---this is war---. In war---when you have the chance---you smash the enemy down to the max---.

This is not a high school fight when you can claim of proportional response and be happy with it---.

 

[Flight of falcon]

Hi,

Here is why you don't let go of the 'first time'---. It was already announced---The targeted areas were also mostly known---. You made the enemy feel brave---they completed their targeted goal and then let their media do the rest---.

Paf tried to play the old trick---' we escorted the enemy out of our borders '---.

If it had not been for public and internal outrage---Paf generals were happy of not doing anything else---.

This reaction also showed that the Paf had decidedly become a 'defensive' force.

Now---we both agree on the second day strike---. The Paf had the opportunity to pummel the enemy when it was down---.

Out of COWARDICE---the generals decided to let the biggest prize of them escape as well---the submarine---.

That was a despicable decision by the commander in chief Gen Bajwa---.

The reaction also showed was that the Paf was LOW IN NUMBERS of frontline fighters---.

There are idiots on this defense forum who have claimed the J10's bring nothing to the table---.

For those fools---the J10 brings NUMBERS to the table---which were woefully low on the 26th & 27th---.

The number of frontline fighters in Paf inventory are below the MINIMUM THRESHOLD level---. That number needs to be between 350 + 100 plus mirage 3/5's.



Hi,

young man---this is war---. In war---when you have the chance---you smash the enemy down to the max---.

This is not a high school fight when you can claim of proportional response and be happy with it---.

All I can say is that I hope and pray that you are not in any decision making position in Pakistan.
War is not started and fought based on a single missed airstrike. We are not America and perhaps that’s exactly what our enemy wanted. To over react and start something bigger than what we can handle.
You sitting on a chair somewhere typing away wanted a war that we cannot afford and defenietly cannot win?
The whole world wants to see us fail. This would not be a war against India .... it would be against Pakistan vs rest of the world ( minus hand full of countries).
I am very proud of our generals .... they are not cowards nor foolish. They study and judge the situation and then respond appropriately. We have performed exceptionally well in fight against terrorism and holding off India.

India wants to provoke us so they can cry in front of the world and make our case as aggressors .
Forget who attacked first. We are at extremely delicate time in our history economically. If the economic turn around succeeds it will put Pakistan on a path to long term growth and away from the clutches of loans. This is exactly what India wants to fail us in. Start a useless war and sink what ever we have left and get the country pushed back to stone ages.
Modi staged the whole drama for his retarded nation. They danced, drank, ate malai kofta, made a Bollywood movie , sang songs and assured each other they are the super power and went home leaving their stench and vote for Modi.

 

[SIPRA]

All I can say is that I hope and pray that you are not in any decision making position in Pakistan.
War is not started and fought based on a single missed airstrike. We are not America and perhaps that’s exactly what our enemy wanted. To over react and start something bigger than what we can handle.
You sitting on a chair somewhere typing away wanted a war that we cannot afford and defenietly cannot win?
The whole world wants to see us fail. This would not be a war against India .... it would be against Pakistan vs rest of the world ( minus hand full of countries).
I am very proud of our generals .... they are not cowards nor foolish. They study and judge the situation and then respond appropriately. We have performed exceptionally well in fight against terrorism and holding off India.

India wants to provoke us so they can cry in front of the world and make our case as aggressors .
Forget who attacked first. We are at extremely delicate time in our history economically. If the economic turn around succeeds it will put Pakistan on a path to long term growth and away from the clutches of loans. This is exactly what India wants to fail us in. Start a useless war and sink what ever we have left and get the country pushed back to stone ages.
Modi staged the whole drama for his retarded nation. They danced, drank, ate malai kofta, made a Bollywood movie , sang songs and assured each other they are the super power and went home leaving their stench and vote for Modi.

Very sane opinion, and well expressed, as well.

 

[Hayreddin]

Hi,

Here is why you don't let go of the 'first time'---. It was already announced---The targeted areas were also mostly known---. You made the enemy feel brave---they completed their targeted goal and then let their media do the rest---.

Paf tried to play the old trick---' we escorted the enemy out of our borders '---.

If it had not been for public and internal outrage---Paf generals were happy of not doing anything else---.

This reaction also showed that the Paf had decidedly become a 'defensive' force.

Now---we both agree on the second day strike---. The Paf had the opportunity to pummel the enemy when it was down---.

Out of COWARDICE---the generals decided to let the biggest prize of them escape as well---the submarine---.

That was a despicable decision by the commander in chief Gen Bajwa---.

The reaction also showed was that the Paf was LOW IN NUMBERS of frontline fighters---.

There are idiots on this defense forum who have claimed the J10's bring nothing to the table---.

For those fools---the J10 brings NUMBERS to the table---which were woefully low on the 26th & 27th---.

The number of frontline fighters in Paf inventory are below the MINIMUM THRESHOLD level---. That number needs to be between 350 + 100 plus mirage 3/5's.



Hi,

young man---this is war---. In war---when you have the chance---you smash the enemy down to the max---.

This is not a high school fight when you can claim of proportional response and be happy with it---.

On 26 paf could not intercepted , its not like they " didn"t " . And it proved blessing in disguise , 6 su30mki accompanied by mig2k crossed loc in bad weather condition. If IAF wld have been intercepted there wld loss from both sides but paf losses wld have been more .Luckily IAF couldnt achieve ground targets .
You know what the very next day our assets were airborne in "knee jerk reaction" but mission was postponed , and again lucky day for paf as radars shown iaf assets on various border locations with hige numbers of 24 , 16, 18 ...
We must appreciate paf made operation swift retot a perfect plan next day on 27 and iaf lost the game that day completly .
I strongly agree with your point that we are extremely low numbers and need j10c or EF type jet in our inventory .
Letting Submarine go was not a coward act but very wise decision not let things get escalated , Pakistan is not in a postion to sustain a full fledge war at the moment and letting abhi nandan go was also timely decision to cool down things for a moment .
Psychological pressure on Indian armed forces is enormous after all this lost . IAF lost jets and chopper . IA lost posts and huge number of soldiers . IN submarine was locked . But for pak armed forces it was a win win siuation . So stoping game here was wise instead of letting it continue and they could have turn the table in their favor .

 

[Shane]

The problem with letting the enemy go is that he will regroup and reorganize based on newfound insight into your abilities.

Yes, but only if you think that is what happened that we had them in crosshairs like sitting ducks for slaughter but we choose not to fire...etc etc, but letting go is a serious simplification and entirely based on playing down your adversary, not a good idea, as you advised @RIWWIR yourself.

Do not overestimate yourself and do not underestimate the enemy.

To put things in perspective, if one's delta can out run a scramble then so can the other's. That's why both sides used mirages in turn to good effect.

As for the aerial skirmish of 27th, it was not about giving new insight into your abilities, that was unavoidable after 26th, but it was more about deliberately creating a credible aerial deterrent against a belligerent enemy unreasonably high on its own high-tech, Air superiority asset's projected capabilities.

To date, the aerial deterrent stands justified.

PAF got the better of IAF as the latter choose to persue the aggressors and paid dearly for getting caught in PAF's trap, something that PAF had managed to avoid a day earlier.

Both Air Forces got the chance to learn perticular tactics, capabilities, strengths and weaknesses but in a specific scenario as both sides executed some specific tactical strategies during their time of choosing. So who is stopping both sides to improve and improvise, induct and specialize?

Unless an all out war, that is how it works both ways, in a tit for tat Air skirmish.

There is a part two of this post about Brahmos but I will post it later to avoid a lengthy post.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Yes, but only if you think that is what happened that we had them in crosshairs like sitting ducks for slaughter but we choose not to fire...etc etc, but letting go is a serious simplification and entirely based on playing down your adversary, not a good idea, as you advised @RIWWIR yourself.


To put things in perspective, if one's delta can out run a scramble then so can the other's. That's why both sides used mirages in turn to good effect.

As for the aerial skirmish of 27th, it was not about giving new insight into your abilities, that was unavoidable after 26th, but it was more about deliberately creating a credible aerial deterrent against a belligerent enemy unreasonably high on its own high-tech, Air superiority asset's projected capabilities.

To date, the aerial deterrent stands justified.

PAF got the better of IAF as the latter choose to persue the aggressors and paid dearly for getting caught in PAF's trap, something that PAF had managed to avoid a day earlier.

Both Air Forces got the chance to learn perticular tactics, capabilities, strengths and weaknesses but in a specific scenario as both sides executed some specific tactical strategies during their time of choosing. So who is stopping both sides to improve and improvise, induct and specialize?

Unless an all out war, that is how it works both ways, in a tit for tat Air skirmish.

There is a part two of this post about Brahmos but I will post it later to avoid a lengthy post.

Well reasoned imho. No course of action was clear cut for Pak but on balance, the safe approach we adopted was marginally favourable over a provocation into all out war. Several members have mentioned that holding back on a fully armed rampage has gotten us nowhere in the past and India has attacked us all the same regardless, to which the question arises, where is the evidence that the all out rampage will result in a different eventual outcome? When in Pak's history have we tried this Russian roulette type of gamble, that we can assume it would work today? Pearl Harbour worked well for the Japs did it? Please recall also that the Americans willingly lured the Jap Imperial forces into attacking Pearl Harbour, knowing that the temporary devastation would eventually be absorbed and reversed due to American superiority in terms of geography, industry, politics, technology and financial resources, all in all not too dissimilar to what may be the case if PAF decided to decimate India for a single day in the present.

The real loss imho is the erosion of our initial informational, propaganda and political advantage. We could have fleeced that for all it was worth but the aces we held early on in that particular field was overturned by Indian relentless propaganda overdrive and our own informational surrender domestically and internatonally.

Instead of selfies with bits of debris, we could have exposed India as a false flagged, as an aggressor and as an abuser of Kashmiris and as a purveyor of terrorism within Pak but we contrived to miss that opportunity.

 

[Shane]

Please recall also that the Americans willingly lured the Jap Imperial forces into attacking Pearl Harbour, knowing that the temporary devastation would eventually be absorbed and reversed due to American superiority in terms of geography, industry, politics, technology and financial resources, all in all not too dissimilar to what may be the case if PAF decided to decimate India for a single day in the present.

Thank you for your reply.

While the Indian strike was a clear provocation and staged to achive political mileage at home, it was also an attempt to try to tick other boxes as added benefit in the longer run.

To the Indian leadership was looking to score a landslide in elections over Balakot strike, it looked like a win win situation no matter the response from Pakistan but all their designs were foiled to their bewilderment:

• India wanted to establish Aerial Strike Superiority - Foiled.
• India wanted Pakistan to accept strike beyond LOC - Foiled.
  
• India wanted to establish Air Superiority - Foiled.
• India wanted Pakistan to surrender its aerial sovereignty - Foiled.
• India wanted the world to blame Pakistan as the real agressor - Foiled.
• India wanted the world to witness Pakistan's defeat - Foiled.

That Modi benefitted from the strike to gain political mileage at home, is no surprise due to the delusional - high on itself, Indian nation led by equally delusional Hindutwa leadership.

That Pakistan ended up foiling the Indian attempt to tick any boxes but completely turned the tables against India is a - hither to unknown catastrophe - for Indian designs.

The pompous, mediocre minded Gujrati Butcher and IAF stands shell shocked to this day. The mad man brags embarrassing cloudy details, while crying...if only we had Rafael...yet the delusional Indian cheers on...much to the bemusement of the rest of the world.

The Japs vs US analagy is slightly off as the Japs did not posses any Nuclear deterrent like the substantial Nuclear arsnel we have in stock for good reason...but more about it later in another post as Indians may well be sneaking towards another option derived from a similar strategy that Russians prepaired for the US.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes, but only if you think that is what happened that we had them in crosshairs like sitting ducks for slaughter but we choose not to fire...etc etc, but letting go is a serious simplification and entirely based on playing down your adversary, not a good idea, as you advised @RIWWIR yourself.


To put things in perspective, if one's delta can out run a scramble then so can the other's. That's why both sides used mirages in turn to good effect.

As for the aerial skirmish of 27th, it was not about giving new insight into your abilities, that was unavoidable after 26th, but it was more about deliberately creating a credible aerial deterrent against a belligerent enemy unreasonably high on its own high-tech, Air superiority asset's projected capabilities.

To date, the aerial deterrent stands justified.

PAF got the better of IAF as the latter choose to persue the aggressors and paid dearly for getting caught in PAF's trap, something that PAF had managed to avoid a day earlier.

Both Air Forces got the chance to learn perticular tactics, capabilities, strengths and weaknesses but in a specific scenario as both sides executed some specific tactical strategies during their time of choosing. So who is stopping both sides to improve and improvise, induct and specialize?

Unless an all out war, that is how it works both ways, in a tit for tat Air skirmish.

There is a part two of this post about Brahmos but I will post it later to avoid a lengthy post.

First if all, when I decry letting the enemy go, I am not advocating an all out war. If you read my posts since Feb 27 I have been advocating a firm diplomatic stance to make the world recognize Indian belligerence and to penalize it. This is a failure at the topmost levels of our leadership.

Second, I was going to write an article, Insha Allah, explaining just how much you give away in any skirmish and why ROEs need to be updated. Look out for it.

 

[Psychic]

Here is why you don't let go of the 'first time'---. It was already announced---The targeted areas were also mostly known---. You made the enemy feel brave---they completed their targeted goal and then let their media do the rest-

I am of the opinion that their munitions missed because of some minor technical error. They missed their intended target by less than a kilometer. And that was a madrassa full of children at that time. There was a reason why they announced 300 casualties the very first day because they were expecting that many casualties.

Had their munitions scored bullseye, our doves of peace would have asked us to show restraint to avoid total war? I wonder.

Now---we both agree on the second day strike---. The Paf had the opportunity to pummel the enemy when it was down---.

Out of COWARDICE---the generals decided to let the biggest prize of them escape as well---the submarine---.

That was a despicable decision by the commander in chief Gen Bajwa---.

Exactly.
But instead of pummeling them to ground, we let the prey go. Had we taken out 8-10 frontline aircraft when we had them jammed and spoofed, we would've gained such an advantage already over our beaten and demoralized opponent which would've helped us to inflict further defeats had they dared to make this allout war (which they wouldn't have---they would have run to the US and world to intervene and stop)

The reaction also showed was that the Paf was LOW IN NUMBERS of frontline fighters---.

There are idiots on this defense forum who have claimed the J10's bring nothing to the table---.

For those fools---the J10 brings NUMBERS to the table---which were woefully low on the 26th & 27th---.

The number of frontline fighters in Paf inventory are below the MINIMUM THRESHOLD level---. That number needs to be between 350 + 100 plus mirage 3/5's.

They have the money for eight subs but not for a couple squardons of J-10s with PL-15s.

Then they also spend tons of money on stupid luxuries of theirs---then they asked the poor or middle class to stop complaining about lack of numbers and start paying taxes(As if they make bucketloads of money like trader class)

They forget that defence comes first and foremost. We'd rather eat a little less than become the Gaza of South Asia.

Hi,

young man---this is war---. In war---when you have the chance---you smash the enemy down to the max---.

This is not a high school fight when you can claim of proportional response and be happy with it---.

As I said it earlier;
There were many voices against PAF's retaliation before it happened arguing that it could lead to a full scale war.

Then this post which suggested the exact same thing that we should've shown even more restraint.

I rather believe that Pakistan's response was far more aggressive than what its circumstances permitted.

I have been advocating a firm diplomatic stance to make the world recognize Indian belligerence and to penalize it. This is a failure at the topmost levels of our leadership.

We got nothing.

Our naive posters here brag about IAF's humiliation by NYT and other international newspapers while totally ignoring the fact that the same world after Feb 27th, twisted our arm and forced us to take action against the people who, in the past were associated with Kashmir freedom movement---

pdf fanboys are content that IAF made itself look like a joker but what really matters in terms of substance is that----- India was assured by the world that Pakistan will be forced to take action against "terrorism"---

the world didn't care to give a statement or two about the resolution of Kashmir issue which was the root cause of whatever had happened.

Let pdf fanboys keep braging about the "humliation" of IAF while we were forced to appease India by the same world which stayed silent over India's blatant aggression and jumped in once IAF got slapped the next day.

Second, I was going to write an article, Insha Allah, explaining just how much you give away in any skirmish and why ROEs need to be updated. Look out for it.

IAF had displayed a very different mindset in 71 as compared to 65---They learned from their mistakes. PAF still gave a good account but we musn't forget that those were good old days of dogfighting where pilot skill and intelligent asset placement played a crucial role. Now, electronics and technology can turn the best topgun of the world to a blind sitting duck taken out with a bvr coming out of nowhere.