PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter

[unicorn148]

Russia approached China for JV on PAKFA before approaching India. There are only two reasons someone would want a partner: for their money or their knowledge. With all due respect to India and China, I don't think the Russians are lacking knowledge in this area. They managed to keep pace with the Americans just fine all by themselves during the Cold War.



Agree. The export version of JXX will be a watered down version, even to Pakistan.

The same as the FGFA (Indian version) will lack certain features the Russians will keep for themselves in their PAKFA.

No country is stupid to give away decades of experience and top secret defence technology even for a few billion dollars.

First of all there is solid proof that Russia approached china with a 50/50 JV if you have show it

and We are Partners in that and not buying some export variant and we will be partners in every technology similar to that of brahmos .....
may be you may get in future a export variant of JXX but not us................

 

[malikkhawar]

Progression for the PAF should be JF-17 upgrades, J-10, FC-20, Upgrades and then J-XX.

 

[rockstarIN]

^^^technology is keep changing and getting costly day by day.

Better not to make a friend disappoint for a current day technology, which others may offer in coming 10-15 years. The friendship left out today might costly more in tomorrow.

 

[SQ8]

First of all there is solid proof that Russia approached china with a 50/50 JV if you have show it

and We are Partners in that and not buying some export variant and we will be partners in every technology similar to that of brahmos .....
may be you may get in future a export variant of JXX but not us................

Perhaps you should consider that every Chinese product we have bought for ourselves..the export variant..has been more advanced and adaptable when compared to its image in the Chinese military..
So in other words..if we did get the J-XX.. it is probably going to be better than what the Chinese have.
History is yet to prove this wrong.

 

[Speeder 2]

First of all there is solid proof that Russia approached china with a 50/50 JV if you have show it

and We are Partners in that and not buying some export variant and we will be partners in every technology similar to that of brahmos .....
may be you may get in future a export variant of JXX but not us................

Russia shares her top weapon secrets with you? you are in the lala land. What India could offer to PAKFA(T-50) btw? Not even its door to put it bluntly.

"software package, etc..."? yeah right, apart from giving India a face-lift in joint media statement, Ruskies might desperately want to put a "hi tech" call-centre into FGFA, really

The more India buys, the stronger the seller's future position ( future R&D funding for the next gen) will be , and the more India must buy in the future for the next, next gen... not the other way around.

Now Pakistan is a different story from India, since it is 10X smaller with similar gdp per cap hence PAF can not afford, understandablely, to compete with India $ for $. There's nothing wrong with it. PAF then has to be smart and solid on how to procure military gears instead of throwing $$$ the way India does.

All in all, completely absorbing JF-17 tech (gradually move on to its next block/s) and FC-20 tech is the solid way, and hence a smart way in the long run, to go for PAF, rather than chasing the latest or future "fashion", since long term planning sterms from a solid basis of today.

The export version of J-XX , which would be equivalent to FGFA tech-wise, will be sent to PAF by China just in time to maintain South Asia's statue quo.

 

[rockstarIN]

Perhaps you should consider that every Chinese product we have bought for ourselves..the export variant..has been more advanced and adaptable when compared to its image in the Chinese military..
So in other words..if we did get the J-XX.. it is probably going to be better than what the Chinese have.
History is yet to prove this wrong.

Unlike Russia & US, China yet to come out with a very good system into the aviation market.

USA never gives full access of its technologies to any allies.

USSR/Russia started giving it after the USSR collapse to counter US technology only.

It is yet to know if China gets an advanced stuff by their own, will they share it with its friends..

 

[rockstarIN]

[

QUOTE=Speeder 2;1354131]Russia shares her top weapon secrets with you? you are in the lala land. What India could offer to PAKFA(T-50) btw? Not even its door to put it bluntly.

Answer - SU-30 MKI( so far the best war plane Russia ever made and they allowed us to modify with our, western systems)

Read the news again about PAK-FA. Only first prototype is out. Russain PAKFA and Indian FGFA designs will be evolved from that only. Its going to take years ( 7 upgraded prototypes planned)

We both will design our planes with the help from each other as per our requirements.

"software package, etc..."? yeah right, apart from giving India a face-lift in joint media statement, Ruskies might desperately want to put a "hi tech" call-centre into FGFA, really

DRDO developed EW systems, integrated life support system for the pilots etc. Also note that FGFA might see our own AESA(JV with others), BVRs (Astra) etc. Since we are years away from FGFA, we can now co -develop the sub systems even with France or Sweden etc to integrate to our fighter.

That way we worked for our MKI and sure we will follow the same.

The more India buys, the stronger the seller's future position ( future R&D funding for the next gen) will be , and the more India must buy in the future for the next, next gen... not the other way around.

Its a partnership and co development, not a seller-buyer.

Now Pakistan is a different story from India, since it is 10X smaller with similar gdp per cap hence PAF can not afford, understandablely, compete with India $ for $. There's nothing wrong with it. PAF then has to be smart and solid on how to procure military gears instead of throwing $$$ the way India does.

All in all, completely absorbing JF-17 tech (gradually move on to its next block/s) and FC-20 tech is the solid way, and thence a smart way, to go for PAF. .

I agree on this

 

[Speeder 2]

Answer - SU-30 MKI( so far the best war plane Russia ever made and they allowed us to modify with our, western systems)

That you can't think doesn't mean others can't think either.

We both will design our planes with the help from each other as per our requirements.

First show me the result of "We both will design our basic rifles with the help from each other as per our requirements", before talking about designing one of the most sophisticated warplanes in the world history.

DRDO developed EW systems, integrated life support system for the pilots etc. Also note that FGFA might see our own AESA(JV with others), BVRs (Astra) etc. Since we are years away from FGFA, we can now co -develop the sub systems even with France or Sweden etc to integrate to our fighter.

your own aesa? BRVs? of course "your own".

I have "my own" super wide flat TV, and "my own" ipad as well on top of which I put a cool surfing sticker of mine.

And your point being?

As for integrated life support system, good lord you need that, and fast, particularly you "design" your own 5th gen. BTW, shall I need to mention to you that the "EJECT" button must be BIG and HANDY?

Its a partnership and co development, not a seller-buyer.

How about "my name is Yuri GuptaNov"?

Frankly, with sh!tload of $$$ in sight, Yuri will say anything when really required in front of cameras.

 

[rockstarIN]

..Troll...

..If you have nothing to say logically, better keep quite...

 

[VelocuR]

Sick of fifth generation fighters packages!


We SHOULD focus on Pakistan's economy at this moment to make it a big differences tmw! Then we will discuss next-generator fighters later.

I repeat: Economy, invest Economy, GROW Economy....

 

[SQ8]

Unlike Russia & US, China yet to come out with a very good system into the aviation market.

USA never gives full access of its technologies to any allies.

USSR/Russia started giving it after the USSR collapse to counter US technology only.

It is yet to know if China gets an advanced stuff by their own, will they share it with its friends..

Depends on your definition of a "good system" is..
One that does its job..or one that spends its time in maintenance most of the time..like the B-1.. or the Mig-29..
The F-7MG is a good system...
The J-10..is a good system..

Now you are just being biased here.

 

[rockstarIN]

^^^

I said a very good system in aviation, not saying their stuff is bad, but all are new, and the same systems are available in the market, which they will definitely sale, but 5th gen tech which is rare and complex, hope you understand my point

 

[SQ8]

^^^

I said a very good system in aviation, not saying their stuff is bad, but all are new, and the same systems are available in the market, which they will definitely sale, but 5th gen tech which is rare and complex, hope you understand my point

Compared to the industrial complex that is aviation manufacturing in the US and Russia..They are doing quite well.
This isnt the 70's...
Technology has been proliferates to such an extent..that some of the best hardware is available commercially.
Competition forces that people sell.. would you have supposed 30 years ago that India would have had access to the best processors and equipment?..and not just the government.. ..small enterprises have access to mainframes if they wish.
Its just way..Moore's law applies here.. the rate it took the US to come up with a 5th gen..isnt the rate it will take the Chinese..or you.

 

[Storm Force]

First of All THANKS to ALL members for taking Part in debate.

From what we have seen We have concluded a no of things.

Firstly JXX is a highly secretive Chinease Project that is arguably their most advanced military project. For this reason nobody really knows hw far advanced it is in terms of technology, first flight or ioc. Also the concensus seems to be that China will not allow or does not want to share in the development in the project.

When it does become available again varying estimates between 2018-2025 the feeling is China may not export this for several years (alias USA & F22 refusal to Japan & Israel) reasons are simple they are so rich they don,t need the money BUT most important they wish to guard their technology closely to their chests.

Finally even if the PAF could join the leap from Thunder to JXX is so huge and the cost so immense it would be impractical to do so.

For the reason most reasonable minds have suggested a efficient trusted route of more F16s and Thunders and a steady transcend to a 4.5 generation Fighter FC20 between 2015- 2020.

This incendently could see spin offs from JXX project as it matures into flights testing.

Almost ceraintly some aspects of PAKFA will appear on SU30MKI upgrades in india.

 

[Storm Force]

Regarding Russia,s decision to give india the Partnership for FGFA and use their PAK FA as the template this is imo the real reason why it has happened.

Russia certainly does not need the money regardless of wat people say they have $500 billlion in forex (3rd largest in the world) and is a BRICS nation. Rapid GDP growth.

The real reason is as some one said competition. The indian Arms Market had been exclusively Russian. But India has opened the floodgates to USA Israel and Europe. The Russians know their are a handful of countries in the world with enornmous indian buying power between 2010-2025. They fear losing to EADS or America in MMRCA COMPETITION and will give India a slice of PAK FA for keeping at least 50% share of the indian market.

India has boxed clever on this. They will use the PAK FA template but will bring in Western cockpit weapons and sensor fusion into their version called FGFA..SOME OF THIS COULD WELL BE SPIN OFFS from mmrca winner be it Typhoon,s meteore missles or F18S/H smart cockpit layout.

Both india and Russia need this deal to work for their own vested interests.