PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

[Kharral]

Perhaps the Europeans would be willing to sell the systems and sub-systems being developed for the Eurofighter ECR programs.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/pre...l-details-of-new-eurofighter-ecr-concept.html



Despite Covid, Pakistan still has to think about its survival, with the kind of government in India right now. It’s only a matter of time before that regime carries out another false flag attack and uses it to attack Pakistan, they have said as much with plans to “take back Azad Kashmir”. Hence why PAF is right to focus on upgrading the mirages and building JF-17 Block III at the current time.

the best weapon Pakistan can acquire is a stable and growing economy.

Say no more.
Mods please close the thread.

 

[Rafale+Meteor+Spectra]

Not only did US approve AIM 120 C5 but it upgraded and added to Pakistani AF capability from CSF funds. That means Pakistan did not spend a dime and got, so far, unmatched missile capability in the region. US knew well that India did not have missiles that outrange the C5.

Aim-120C5 was released tp PAF 5 yrs after it got export clearance to non NATO countries.
When AIM-120C5 was released, US and India agreed that it wont be an issue for India as IAF laso issued tender for MRCA at the same time and what ever fighter was chisen F-16 with 120C will be no match.
So the only problem was delay in MRCA.

 

[airomerix]

Aim-120C5 was released tp PAF 5 yrs after it got export clearance to non NATO countries.
When AIM-120C5 was released, US and India agreed that it wont be an issue for India as IAF laso issued tender for MRCA at the same time and what ever fighter was chisen F-16 with 120C will be no match.
So the only problem was delay in MRCA.

Ofcourse. C5 will never be a problem for India. All puns intended.

 

[Ace of Spades]

instead of day dreaming about foreign cash or some fighter jet gifts from GCC, pakistan should focus on AZM and open the door for the private industrial complex involvement/ investment in military research and development; by integrating universities in R&D.

 

[Ali_Baba]

MBDA has largest influence as far as Meteor is concerned.
Aim-260 won't get FOC before 2026.

NO NO NO NO .. This is a LIE LIE LIE.... The core technoloty is British, not French ... sigh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA

BAE has the same vote as Airbus and both Leonardo and BAE out vote Airbus ..

 

[Zarvan]

PAF for more than five decades has been successfully operating various fighters, and their variants from three major destinations namely the Chinese,the Americans and the Europeans(French) . This tri nation combination has borne PAF major dividends in terms of costs,availability and reliability regarding the platforms. PAF in my opinion will always seek new/refurbished fighters from three sources without tilting the balance to other two.
On this forum we Pakistanis have debated to death ,the various options PAF can exercise for its future needs and replacements. It is widely accepted that the Block3 and further, will be the best options available for the future upgrades for the Thunders. New Blocks of F16s are also considered along with the further upgrades of the remaining fleet. The Mirage fleet of PAF cannot be upgraded further because of their aging airframes. Further French supplies of hardware are not available owing to massive Indian pressure. This leaves us a question what other European source can be visited,some say the Russians(similar to Chinese tech). Since we have friendly ties with other European Nations why not revisit the Eurofighter Typhoons!!!

Indeed they are very expensive machines, but lately many European nations have considered selling them because of varying reasons, like the Italians and the Austrians.
https://www.flightglobal.com/austria-to-retire-eurofighter-typhoons-from-2020/124735.article
PAF pilots have had a taste of Typhoons on numerous occasions,with ACM Tanvir Mahmood also flying it. Some say the Saudi and the Qatari airforces do have some PAF inputs on their Typhoon operations and acquisitions!!!!

Already posted in this forum by mike2000 in 2016 ,tells us the enormous potential of this beast.

There is a continual evolution of many more deadly weapons systems such as SPEAR missiles, brimstone, meteor, Storm shadow, Marte-ER, sensors and information management systems,long lasting airframes and Engines.

There has been a valid concern on their affordability factor. Nevertheless there is no harm in seeking the second hand options to begin with. These beauties in the hands of the PAF professionals will seek havoc on the minds of our arch enemy. We will continue to maintain our psychological edge over them for decades to come.

We need a beast and in large numbers to carry out strikes on cities in India South and other parts of India.

 

[Khanivore]

IMO ... We should focus on acquiring as many JF-17s, i.e., crank up the annual roll-out. Moreover, work with whoever's willing (likely just China, maybe Turkey/RSA down the line) to provide the JF-17 with good AAMs.

That is the best way forward. Ramp up the production of JF-17s from 12 to 24 per year and source better avionics/EW kit + AAMs from China and/or Turkey.

 

[Armchair]

I don't wish PAF to acquire them for strategic and financial reasons but nothing can compare to a Eurofighter armed with LRAAMs other than the F-22 for the "full back" air superiority mission.

 

[SABRE]

باتیں کروڑوں کی دکان پکوڑوں کی
پاکستان زِنده باد‎#​

LOL ... & on the other side of the fence, "Oonchi Dukan Pheka Pakwaan."

 

[ziaulislam]

Aim-120C5 was released tp PAF 5 yrs after it got export clearance to non NATO countries.
When AIM-120C5 was released, US and India agreed that it wont be an issue for India as IAF laso issued tender for MRCA at the same time and what ever fighter was chisen F-16 with 120C will be no match.
So the only problem was delay in MRCA.

Yeah yeah C5 Aint no big deal..wait for aim120d(if PAF wants to invest more in f16s)

All you need is to nudge a few LM execeutive who will nudge everyone in senate to get the deal cleared..

 

[Armchair]

Ofcourse. C5 will never be a problem for India. All puns intended.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Pak C5s have more range than the legacy C5s...

Chinese will lose business from Pakistan the day we start using 3D printing in defense industry. We'll start making things ourselves. Even they wouldnt want that.



Yes. There are several other constants such as offset agreements negotiated, nature of products.

For example, these MPA's have a huge utility in anti piracy, countering drug trafficking and other operations which contribute towards EU efforts for security.



Austrian typhoons do not bring anything new to the table. Except for huge sustainment costs. A terrible idea.

You can actually buy 3D printers commercially from various commercial sources. Just check out online supplier websites.

admittedly not the high end stuff though.

 

[SABRE]

IMO ... the point of a modern fighter is to deploy modern capabilities. If the JF-17 is doing just that (e.g., with the KLJ-7A AESA radar ... or even Grifo-E if the PAF opts for it), then why pursue another type in limited numbers? We should focus on acquiring as many JF-17s, i.e., crank up the annual roll-out. Moreover, work with whoever's willing (likely just China, maybe Turkey/RSA down the line) to provide the JF-17 with good AAMs.

With enough JF-17s -- and the right kind of munitions, especially SOWs like Raptor III and Ra'ad II -- the PAF can still inflict considerable conventional damage. Sure, it may struggle against other fighters, but with SOWs, it could at least hit ground targets. Moreover, with serviceable AESA radars, EW/ECM and a PL-15E-like AAM, it could still be a threat in the air, and by the dozens (if not 100+).

The situation at that point is so unprecedented, two professional and networked air forces will collide, basically. IMO, at that point, neither side will seriously want to be the aggressor.

Finally, with Project Azm, we can make a case that the PAF could gradually build a large fleet over the long-term. No matter how expensive it is, our industry would benefit for even an incremental order.

It's time we stick to what we have, expand upon it (to support our local economic base as much as we can). And for the future, focus on developing the necessary industrial inputs to both source next-gen weapons locally, and in all seriousness, improve our economy and its ability to generate revenue for the state.

Theoretically, all that you have said is correct. I do, however, respectfully differ on the 3rd paragraph. If a full-scale war breaks out, neither air forces would play defensive. For forces that are heavily dependent on technologies as means of fighting, its either "use it or lose it" situation. Being the smaller amongst the two, PAF has a greater realization of this and would start to play "reactionary-aggressor." India has been pondering complete dominance over PAF to achieve their war objectives, as evinced in their self-confusing Cold Start Doctrine. I thus expect PAF to go head-on and try to achieve its objectives within days by inflicting unacceptable damage to IAF. This might result in severe attrition on PAF's side as well. But it's better to lose your assets while destroying that of the enemy.

Theoretically speaking again, punch and prestige combo is an important element in warfare. JF-17 is a good punch element for the PAF but complementing it with a good Western platform would add prestige element (also enhance the punch exponentially), which would psychologically weigh heavy on the adversary. We have already seen how F-16s undermined the IAF's psyche (& that of India as a whole) during Op Swift Retort (OSR). Previously, in 1965, the mere presence of F-104 Starfighter forced IAF fighters to flee, and in that confusion, one IAF Gnat landed inside Pakistan (now in PAF museum). Right now the IAF has one-upmanship against PAF with their Rafale.

 

[Armchair]

Theoretically, all that you have said is correct. I do, however, respectfully differ on the 3rd paragraph. If a full-scale war breaks out, neither air forces would play defensive. For forces that are heavily dependent on technologies as means of fighting, its either "use it or lose it" situation. Being the smaller amongst the two, PAF has a greater realization of this and would start to play "reactionary-aggressor." India has been pondering complete dominance over PAF to achieve their war objectives, as evinced in their self-confusing Cold Start Doctrine. I thus expect PAF to go head-on and try to achieve its objectives within days by inflicting unacceptable damage to IAF. This might result in severe attrition on PAF's side as well. But it's better to lose your assets while destroying that of the enemy.

Theoretically speaking again, punch and prestige combo is an important element in warfare. JF-17 is a good punch element for the PAF but complementing it with a good Western platform would add prestige element (also enhance the punch exponentially), which would psychologically weigh heavy on the adversary. We have already seen how F-16s undermined the IAF's psyche (& that of India as a whole) during Op Swift Retort (OSR). Previously, in 1965, the mere presence of F-104 Starfighter forced IAF fighters to flee, and in that confusion, one IAF Gnat landed inside Pakistan (now in PAF museum). Right now the IAF has one-upmanship against PAF with their Rafale.

Interesting post. I am thinking that a peer-on-peer war between India and Pakistan will start of with skirmishes, and then lead to a sudden expansion of aggressive assaults.

The one key glaring weakness for Pak would be close air support. While India has attack helicopters and a large number of ground attack aircraft, PAF does not have the numbers to give out valuable strike and air superiority assets to close air support.

Compounding this problem is that the Mirages aren't suitable for close air support at all, and Pak would largely have to rely on a handful of tired and dilapidated AH-1s.

This means that PAF will largely be fighting a separate air war while PA's largely infantry dominated forces duke it out against a much larger and better equiped force.

 

[airomerix]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Pak C5s have more range than the legacy C5s...

It is not the case. However, the exact ranges of these missiles are never made public.

You can actually buy 3D printers commercially from various commercial sources. Just check out online supplier websites.

admittedly not the high end stuff though.

They are available. But they can be used for prototyping at best that too with polymers.

3D printing with titanium/composites/metals is altogether a different game. Only a few countries have them.

 

[Armchair]

The reason I said the PAF C5s may be a bit different from the legacy C5s, is because when the PAF C5s were produced, the US was already producing more advanced AMRAAM variants, meaning some of the components sourced may have been of a superior performance, as old production components were not available.

Just a gossip I saw somewhere online. You surely would know a lot more than me on that. Still, the C5s are really scaring the Indians out of their wits to this day.

Thanks for your reply, always a pleasure to read your informative posts!

@airomerix