PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

[Tipu7]

It was around this time the PAF officially announced Project AZM.

I don't think it's a mystery. If the PAF is working on a real NGFA, then it will need a sustained cash outlay of at least $200-250 m per year, and that's assuming most inputs are coming COTS from China. But if you're trying to convert those COTS inputs to domestic ones, then that spending easily climbs to $500-600 m per year.

So, let's average it out to $300-350 m per year. That's how much Project AZM needs.

The idea was to raise a handsome fleet of EFTs with new and surplus birds as a stop gap measure till materialization of NGFA project (the stealth fighter project under umbrella of Project Azam). The arrival of EFT was meant to close the chapter of F16 in PAF thus giving PAF more "breathing space" against US imposed restrictions. Su35 was also in consideration as backup plan for similar purpose as PAF leadership was also closely observing the political restrictions faced by Saudi EFTs during Yemen conflict. Meanwhile Jf17, due to collaboration of foreign vendors, was to evolve into a bird which could replace Mirages also. But none of it happened. And the sad part is, unlike most Pakistan Defense modernization programs, finances was secondary reason of failure of these plans.

And now while Indian Air Force's Rafales exists in physical form (in France though), Jaguar's Darin III upgrade is underway, Tejas Mk1 has received FOC and the work is underway for Super Sukhoi upgrade, we are still confused about our modernization program. After spending months in debating, PAF is now going to upgrade its Mirages AGAIN! and will possibly upgrade other birds too (minus F16). And the plans were to get rid of majority of all that old glorified junk by 2020 with much better replacement options.

Pakistan doesn't have the fiscal capacity to sustain both a NGFA and a costly import, not without flexible financing conditions on the latter (impossible due to FATF as per @airomerix)

FATF restrictions were imposed in near past. When all this EFT saga took place, there were no restrictions. And yes, grey listing by FATF hampers the military acquisition programs linked with Western World. However weapon systems which fall within category of defensive systems or supportive assets can be acquired, e.g. AEWCs, MPA, Transport Aircrafts, radar systems etc. Offensive assets like Fighter jets, combat naval vessels and armored vehicles, gunships are hard to get as long as we are not in the White list.

The PAF is now, officially, in 'eating grass' mode. Yes, it's not great in the short-term, it makes us look empty handed while all others are decking out with nice hardware. But all I ask is that we look at South Africa. Its projects (e.g., Cheetah, Rooivalk, Oryx, etc) came alive (albeit for a few years) because they ate grass, and now folks want their IP.

When it comes to combat capacity building we often face this eating-grass type situation. But when it comes to personal luxury expanses of our Military Elite, we rarely compromise below Farmhouse Villas.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

For God's sake dont open threads like these.

What do you expect people sitting home after covid-19 to do lol?On a serious note i am sure the Sheikhs can lend us a few from their 150 billion dollar reserves as they did last year. I am not talking about brand new,off the shelf second hand can suffice for know .

The idea was to raise a handsome fleet of EFTs with new and surplus birds as a stop gap measure till materialization of NGFA project (the stealth fighter project under umbrella of Project Azam). The arrival of EFT was meant to close the chapter of F16 in PAF thus giving PAF more "breathing space" against US imposed restrictions. Su35 was also in consideration as backup plan for similar purpose as PAF leadership was also closely observing the political restrictions faced by Saudi EFTs during Yemen conflict. Meanwhile Jf17, due to collaboration of foreign vendors, was to evolve into a bird which could replace Mirages also. But none of it happened. And the sad part is, unlike most Pakistan Defense modernization programs, finances was secondary reason of failure of these plans.

And now while Indian Air Force's Rafales exists in physical form (in France though), Jaguar's Darin III upgrade is underway, Tejas Mk1 has received FOC and the work is underway for Super Sukhoi upgrade, we are still confused about our modernization program. After spending months in debating, PAF is now going to upgrade its Mirages AGAIN! and will possibly upgrade other birds too (minus F16). And the plans were to get rid of majority of all that old glorified junk by 2020 with much better replacement options.



FATF restrictions were imposed in near past. When all this EFT saga took place, there were no restrictions. And yes, grey listing by FATF hampers the military acquisition programs linked with Western World. However weapon systems which fall within category of defensive systems or supportive assets can be acquired, e.g. AEWCs, MPA, Transport Aircrafts, radar systems etc. Offensive assets like Fighter jets, combat naval vessels and armored vehicles, gunships are hard to get as long as we are not in the White list.

When it comes to combat capacity building we often face this eating-grass type situation. But when it comes to personal luxury expanses of our Military Elite, we rarely compromise below Farmhouse Villas.

The best post of the day,thanks.

 

[airomerix]

Thats really unfortunate

BTW Why can't we get 3D printers from China?

Chinese will lose business from Pakistan the day we start using 3D printing in defense industry. We'll start making things ourselves. Even they wouldnt want that.

So, basically, the only things the Europeans could approve is the stuff Pakistan can pay in cash upfront (e.g., the ATR-72 MPA conversion in Germany)?

Yes. There are several other constants such as offset agreements negotiated, nature of products.

For example, these MPA's have a huge utility in anti piracy, countering drug trafficking and other operations which contribute towards EU efforts for security.

You have a point,lets say for the sake of argument if PAF is interested in Austrian jets,it will at least take a few years from the first signature to the first landing. Hopefully FATF will be sorted by then!!!

Austrian typhoons do not bring anything new to the table. Except for huge sustainment costs. A terrible idea.

 

[Kharral]

Indians becoming more belligerent after Rafale acquisition.
https://theprint.in/defence/if-we-h...ets-after-balakot-iaf-ex-chief-dhanoa/363080/

& You believe them ?
Barking Dogs Seldom Bite.
If you are getting nervous about Indian oratory over Rafale acquisition then you must be too young to remember all the bravado post SU 30Mki acquisition, the signing of nuclear treaty with USA and the rest, in a post 9/11 world.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Austrian typhoons do not bring anything new to the table. Except for huge sustainment costs. A terrible idea

Any new inductions will bring costs. The EF brings everything whether new or old.

Barking Dogs Seldom Bite

Modi did put out a stunt in Balakot last year.

 

[Kharral]

Any new inductions will bring costs. The EF brings everything whether new or old.

Modi did put out a stunt in Balakot last year.

& then what happened ? if he were such a lunatic as you make him out to be & his bhakts believe him to be or even the political gurus who so carefully crafted his strong man image, wished him to be, should'nt he have escalated ?
Why back down then ?
What could be a bigger provocation than 27/02 to a Strong Man at the helm of a Strong state and that too by a virtually bankrupt state ?

 

[Falcon26]

Yea, different era. If we had foreign funding support, we would've used it yesterday.

I have always said the Pakistanis haven’t leveraged their relationship with the Saudis. With the exception of cheap oil, this relationship has been stagnant for years now, with the Saudis even backing India on important issues and non-committal on FATF. Considering Pakistan plays a bigger role on securing the defense of the Saudis, it’s astonishing Pakistan hasn’t played hard ball with them. Riyadh funded Egypt’s shopping spree few years ago which saw the Egyptian Air Force induct top Russian & French fighter jets backed by Saudi cash. Pakistan’s foreign policy is stuck on the 1950s mode. It needs to get real.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

I have always said the Pakistanis haven’t leveraged their relationship with the Saudis.

The Egyptian have, they can pick and choose any fighter they want!!!!

 

[NA71]

we are upgrading mirages . i think mirages woulb be replaced by project Azm

why don't we buy 50 P-51 Mustang or Spitfire and upgrade them to 4++ fighter jets?

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

why don't we buy 50 P-51 Mustang or Spitfire and upgrade them to 4++ fighter jets?

I dont think we can find any trace of them even in the bone yard. Maybe can get a handful from some museums.

 

[NA71]

I dont think we can find any trace of them even in the bone yard. Maybe can get a handful from some museums.

believe me if we be able to trace them, the next moment we will place our bid.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

upgrade other birds too

Sir F7s?

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

believe me if we be able to trace them, the next moment we will place our bid.

From Typhoons to the Spitfires Yallah please help us.

 

[NA71]

From Typhoons to the Spitfires Yallah please help us.

we have no money.....lots of buying options.....

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

we have no money.....lots of buying options.