PAF Air Refueling Capability

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Saheb, the poster is not an aviation enthusiast, only a casual reader/surfer who is visiting this thread because he likes to see certain aircrafts in the colors of PAF. Instead of talking this harsh to him, you could have sent him a private message explaining politely what he should do. You are a very senior and respected member here hence try to patronize those who do not have much knowledge insted of brushing them aside.

Qsaark,

How is my brother? We haven't talked in awhile.

I was just driving home from Berkely, had dinner at Naan n Curry with some buddies and I was thinking---what are the chances of Qsaark replying to this post---and I answered to myself---very high. I love it---walllah. I knew that you would come to the party.

As for the poster---he is a senior member just like myself with many a posts---he has a habbit of dumping stuff on this defence board without doing any homework and without any legs to stand on. He has opened many a non-sensical threads on the boards with no head or tail. Months ago, when he started doing that, I told him so---.

We are all enthusiaists over here except for a few genuine warriors---but after the first 10 post one must develop the habbit to do some research, put some kind of effort, look at the integrity of the board and help in raising the bar.

Senior members are the leaders of the board---they need to have integrity in their posts---they need to have done their homework----they need to put in some effort of understanding what they want to write about.

I disagree with your term 'patronizing'---this I firmly believe is not patronizing---in 1972---my udru teacher gave me an assignment as homework---I was into playing sports and didnot spend the time to write it till the day the assigment was due---.

The teacher knew what I had done---he knew that it was way below the standard that he was accepting of me---and I got a tongue lashing for that right in front of the class---I knew that I had only put 50% or less effort in that job---I knew that I had let myself down in front of him and I was coming up with all kinds of excuses to cover up my lack of committment.

Was he patronizing me---not all---I just tried to trick him into giving me passing grades and he didnot fall for it.

This board is a fun place for newbies---that should be okay if you are a newbie---but when you become a senior memebr---it is your turn to lead---it is expected from you to have better knowledge than others.

Like many other posters who have brought legitimacy to this board, I also work very hard at posting correct and legitimate information to the best of my abilities---I maynot be correct all the time---but I do give it my 100% of effort.

I would really really love it if you would stand by me in raising the standard of the posts on the board by the members---you and I may agree to disagree on many a things, but that should not stop us from raising the bar a couple of notches higher.

 

[MastanKhan]

I have a question, what if PAF needs to strike east coast of india, than how the refulling will occur, coz india hides its strategic weopens there, to use its land depht OR we will use billistic missiles.

Hi,

You have asked a very pointed question. First of all, the refuelling can only occur during the time of war in the region of baluchistan----at least two hundred plus miles away from the border---other than that, there is seemingly no safe place to refuel---specially with indian air dominance fighters within 30 miles of the pak borders and indian awacs keeping a watch 200 miles into pak territory.

Rest assured that due to the lack of depth---the refuellers will be shot down in the first 48 to 72 hrs when the war breaks out except maybe for those around gwadar / pasni or upper baluchistan.

Practically---there cannot be any missions against the east coast by paf---too much enemy terrain under the control of enemy awacs---better enemy missile defences and radar coverage and better enemy fighter interceptors.

Tankers can only help in keeping the planes in air towards the arabian sea---refuelling over gwadar area and then going on the sea patrol.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi,

You have asked a very pointed question. First of all, the refuelling can only occur during the time of war in the region of baluchistan----at least two hundred plus miles away from the border---other than that, there is seemingly no safe place to refuel---specially with indian air dominance fighters within 30 miles of the pak borders and indian awacs keeping a watch 200 miles into pak territory.

Rest assured that due to the lack of depth---the refuellers will be shot down in the first 48 to 72 hrs when the war breaks out except maybe for those around gwadar / pasni or upper baluchistan.

Practically---there cannot be any missions against the east coast by paf---too much enemy terrain under the control of enemy awacs---better enemy missile defences and radar coverage and better enemy fighter interceptors.

Tankers can only help in keeping the planes in air towards the arabian sea---refuelling over gwadar area and then going on the sea patrol.

Mastan Sir, if guys like us know about what problems the aerial tankers are gonna face, well then off course they the PAF would have thought about it also and would have devised strategies and tactics to counter these threats to the maximum.

And as for strategic depth, well kindly go to Google and measure the distance between Afghan Border up to Lahore border, you will get a 450+KM figure, and in some areas from Baluchistan, the distance is even 700+KM.

The only major vulnerable area with very less distance is the Kashmir Side, facing Islamabad, where AJK comes, but as majority of the Indian airbases are in India and not occupied Kashmir and as per previous war record, major attacks are gonna come from the Indian bases, which start from the Lahore border and up to Badin area in Sindh and then off course we have Karachi facing threats from the sea side.

So even if the tankers are flying 300+KM deep inside Pakistan from the border, the Indian planes will have to come 150-200KM inside Pakistan to launch their missiles at them and then escape.

And it won't be easy to come so deep inside Pakistan and not get confronted by either PAF interceptors or SAM systems.

Same case for the AEW&Cs.

To counter such threats to these assets, PAF interceptors as well as a very good long range SAM system would be enough to counter any incoming Indian planes.

With future acquisitions of F-16s, FC-20s and JF-17s, there would be potent platforms to even counter MKIs. MKIs are large planes with huge RCS, which can be detected at good ranges, even the JF-17 can detect it at 100+KM range and fire its BVR missiles.

I hope, we get a HQ-9 kind of system with minimum 150KM range, with nearly 15-20 batteries, nearly all of Pakistan will be covered by them, thus freeing the fighters to concentrate more on other jobs.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

i don't know what is the purpose for of upgrading such an old horse with such rear and new capability,they should have tried this capability on thunders

 

[notorious_eagle]

I hope, we get a HQ-9 kind of system with minimum 150KM range, with nearly 15-20 batteries, nearly all of Pakistan will be covered by them, thus freeing the fighters to concentrate more on other jobs.

What makes you think we dont have them sir , its best to underestimate your Assets and let the enemy get overconfident. Although i agree with your assessment that PAF must have devised tactics to ensure the safety of IL78's, i am sure PAF wouldnt have dumped huge amount of $$$ for nothing.

 

[TaimiKhan]

What makes you think we dont have them sir , its best to underestimate your Assets and let the enemy get overconfident. Although i agree with your assessment that PAF must have devised tactics to ensure the safety of IL78's, i am sure PAF wouldnt have dumped huge amount of $$$ for nothing.

Well I do assume that we have HQ-9s, but may be not in enough numbers, rather some systems placed strategically.

What i wish for is to cover nearly all Pakistan, especially the eastern borders.

And not revealing it would be the perfect option, how much and where and in what role, that will enable surprise for the enemy.

But we should get more of them and the better ones.

 

[TaimiKhan]

i don't know what is the purpose for of upgrading such an old horse with such rear and new capability,they should have tried this capability on thunders

For you it may be an old horse, but for PAF this horse has still a lot of life left and it is the perfect platform to test this new capability.

Thunders might not need that much fuel compared to the Mirages, as Mirage engines need a lot of fuel due to their old tech and these Mirages are our elite strike formations, thus they also need this capability, as they are tried and tested platforms, who have still nearly a decade or so life left in them.

 

[Creder]

Hi,

You have asked a very pointed question. First of all, the refuelling can only occur during the time of war in the region of baluchistan----at least two hundred plus miles away from the border---other than that, there is seemingly no safe place to refuel---specially with indian air dominance fighters within 30 miles of the pak borders and indian awacs keeping a watch 200 miles into pak territory.

Rest assured that due to the lack of depth---the refuellers will be shot down in the first 48 to 72 hrs when the war breaks out except maybe for those around gwadar / pasni or upper baluchistan.

Practically---there cannot be any missions against the east coast by paf---too much enemy terrain under the control of enemy awacs---better enemy missile defences and radar coverage and better enemy fighter interceptors.

Tankers can only help in keeping the planes in air towards the arabian sea---refuelling over gwadar area and then going on the sea patrol.

Thats a good angle MK, but just my two cents..wouldn't it be possible to create specific perimiters within Pakistan not near the border but not exactly in Baluchistan either.. Now if these perimiters were to be guarded by an extensive SAM network like HQ-9, and have a decent cover from interceptors..that would enable these tankers to stay up there under effective cover within a resonable range from all of our forward bases.

This kinda scenario in my opinion, is more effective, feasible and the optimum solution for our air refueling needs during a time of war

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

That is what it would seem like---the tankers flying in certain areas alone---.

Now this is a pretty big tanker---how much room does it have left inside its belly----how many troops can it carry and what kind of other equipment---. Can it be used for paratroopers and deploying heavy equipment as well---.

Because, simply just by being a tanker itself, doesnot cut it. There has to be some other use for this plane alongwith quenching the thirst.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi,

That is what it would seem like---the tankers flying in certain areas alone---.

Now this is a pretty big tanker---how much room does it have left inside its belly----how many troops can it carry and what kind of other equipment---. Can it be used for paratroopers and deploying heavy equipment as well---.

Because, simply just by being a tanker itself, doesnot cut it. There has to be some other use for this plane alongwith quenching the thirst.

Sir, we have the MRTT version, Multi Role Tanker Transport.

Meaning, they have fuel tanks which can be removed and the aircraft can be changed into a transport plane.

As per sources it has two removable fuel tanks, which can be removed when required.

Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News

And if our IL-78s have the PS-90 engines, then its cargo capacity is around 55+tons, which is huge if we look at our C-130s. More then double the capacity of C-130s.

 

[TailChoppers]

i don't know what is the purpose for of upgrading such an old horse with such rear and new capability,they should have tried this capability on thunders

I guess its meant to be nothing more than a test bed for our Thunders/FC-20s. This way when the time comes to implement the same on those platforms PAF would have had already done most of their homework and the process would be a lot more streamlined + until that happens our Mirages get an additional punch anyways.

 

[Rank]

Yesturday over islamabad @ 7 PM i saw IL 78 flying very very low and very slowwwwwwwwwwwwww!! i took some pictures as well but they are not good just because of evening light time...

 

[nightrider_saulat]

i want to see my thunders and falcons doing this

 

[MJaa]

ASIAN DEFENCE: Pictures of PAF's Mirage-III Rose-I being Air Refueled by IL-78P Midas R09-001

 

[thunder rules]

Yesturday over karachi i saw IL 78 flying over my university.. ..