P-3C Vs. P-8I: India, Pakistan And The Naval Balance – Analysis

[selvan33]

P-3C Vs. P-8I: India, Pakistan And The Naval Balance – Analysis

Naval aviation is an important part of the naval strategy of India and Pakistan. The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Sea King helicopters fitted with anti-ship missiles. It also acquired the US supplied P3C Orion with Harpoon missiles.

Although the Indian naval leadership had acknowledged the role of and the need for long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) aircraft as force multipliers, these platforms were late entrants in the Indian naval force structure. The current Indian LRMP inventory comprises of the Russian origin Tupolev-142 and Ilyushin-38, which have been upgraded; and a few Dornier aircraft. There have been attempts to fit missiles on some of these platforms with mixed results.

In 2009, India signed a contract worth US$ 3.9 billion with Boeing to supply 8 P-8 Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA). The first P-8I (I for the Indian variant) was handed over to the Indian navy in December 2012 and is currently undergoing trials and crew training. The balance seven aircraft will be delivered in 2013 (two) and 2015 (seven). India is the first international customer for the P-8, and the acquisition of the platform is a good example of the growing Indo-US naval cooperation.

The on-board equipment of the P-8I is similar to that of the P-8A of the US navy, but a number of equipment and sub-assemblies developed by Indian Defence Public Sector Undertaking (DPSU) and private companies have been fitted. The P-8I has a range of over 1200 nautical miles, is capable of in-flight refuelling, and can remain on task at a station for 4 hours. Its weapon suite includes the Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile, Mk-54 torpedoes, and depth charges.

The Harpoon missile is not new to the Indian sub-continent and therefore merits attention. In 2005, the US transferred nine P3C Orion aircraft and 60 Harpoon (40 air-launched and 20 ship launched) missiles to Pakistan. The total package – including a ‘close-in-weapon system’ was worth US$ 970 million. There were concerns among Indian naval planners, as the US had defended the sale of the hardware citing Pakistan’s legitimate self-defence capability.

In May 2011, two Pakistan navy P3C Orion aircraft were destroyed in a terrorist attack on PNS Mehran naval airbase in Karachi. During the 21st meeting of the US-Pakistan Defence Consultative Group (DCG) in December 2012, Pakistan had requested the US for replacements of the P3C Orion aircraft to make up for the losses and it was noted, “The provision of three or four more such aircraft would also help increase the counterterrorism capacity of Pakistani navy.”

The P-8I aircraft is designed for a number of roles and missions including surveillance, reconnaissance, detection, and prosecution of surface and subsurface targets at sea, imaging targets in the littorals, and search and rescue. The Arabian Sea is likely to be high on Indian navy’s deployment priorities where it must contend with the Pakistan navy.

The Pakistan navy has acquired Augusta 90 B submarines fitted with AIP system and there are plans to equip these platforms with Harpoon Block II missiles. Interestingly, the Pakistan naval leadership has noted that these submarines can be modified to deliver nuclear weapons. There have been speculations that Israel may have developed technological capability to miniaturise a nuclear warhead to be fitted on a Harpoon missile. Apparently, the US navy had spotted missiles being tested by an Israeli submarine in the Indian Ocean. It is quite unlikely that Pakistan has the technological knowhow to develop a miniaturised nuclear warhead of such sophistication unless it can obtain assistance from China, which has supported its nuclear weapons programme.

At another level, it is interesting that the Indian navy did not explore the possibility of equipping the P-8I with the Brahmos missile. There could have been at least two reasons: first, the Brahmos is a joint project of the Indian and Russian companies called Brahmos Aerospace, and there may be contractual limitations precluding its fitment on US origin platforms. Second, India has been attempting to diversify its military acquisitions to avoid overdependence on a single source; and in that context, the US naval hardware is a good alternative.

Finally, the P-8I is a significant addition to the Indian navy’s armoury. It is a force multiplier and can significantly augment the maritime air surveillance, reconnaissance, and combat capabilities of the Indian navy. It would have to be cleverly deployed keeping in mind that the Pakistan navy is also equipped with Harpoon missiles and has a good knowledge of the missile’s technical parameters and exploitation doctrine. However, the P-8I is a technologically advanced platform as compared to the P3C Orion, and can offer technological edge over the Pakistan navy.
P-3C Vs. P-8I: India, Pakistan And The Naval Balance - Analysis Eurasia Review

 

[Ganges Zephyr]

Why talk about naval balance between India and Pakistan when both countries have entirely different needs. India has a huge coastline whereas Pakistan can close the gap with 1/10th of that needed for India. Also, India has to counter major powers like China in future whereas Pakistan can itself use China's assets

 

[peep]

India had better p3C orions than PN..still it is going for P8Is .. nuff said !!

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

P-3C Vs. P-8I: India, Pakistan And The Naval Balance – Analysis

At another level, it is interesting that the Indian navy did not explore the possibility of equipping the P-8I with the Brahmos missile. There could have been at least two reasons: first, the Brahmos is a joint project of the Indian and Russian companies called Brahmos Aerospace, and there may be contractual limitations precluding its fitment on US origin platforms. Second,


P-3C Vs. P-8I: India, Pakistan And The Naval Balance - Analysis Eurasia Review

Even if US allows, Brahmos might be too long for P-8I internal weapon bay and too heavy for the wing stations.

 

[selvan33]

Even if US allows, Brahmos might be too long for P-8I internal weapon bay and too heavy for the wing stations.

but we can go for smaller version of brahmos which they are going to develop for medium combat aircrafts in future. but i doubt that either US allow IN to fit brahmos into P8I.

 

[IND151]

but we can go for smaller version of brahmos which they are going to develop for medium combat aircrafts in future. but i doubt that either US allow IN to fit brahmos into P8I.

I think Russians will object Brahmos integration(mini brahmos) with P 8I, as for integration, US engineers will have to handle and know details of Brahmos

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

but we can go for smaller version of brahmos which they are going to develop for medium combat aircrafts in future. but i doubt that either US allow IN to fit brahmos into P8I.

Russian's won't allow either
Harpoon weight's around 700 Kg and air launched Brahmos comes at 2500Kg. Not feasible unless they can strip down brahmos weight by 40% or more without affecting it's striking capability.

 

[Koovie]

Who writes such BS????

 

[INDIAISM]

Who writes such BS????

Idiots who call themselves as the So Called defence Analysts who don't even know ABCD about defence....Damm even a person with 200 posts {Trolls apart} in this forum has more knowledge in defence related matters then them....I mean this person is writing an article about Indian Navy P-8I and he don't even know that P-8I deal was of 2.2 Billion Dollars....

 

[arp2041]

I guess this is much better comparison (cross posting from another thread):

The Navy's jet-powered P-8 Poseidon patrol plane boasts plenty of advances over the P-3 Orion turboprops it will replace, but for the sensor operators the favorite feature will be very basic: They won't throw up as much.

The P-3's notoriously rough ride at low altitudes and the gunpowder-like stench from the launch tube shooting sonar buoys out the back meant that, "typically, every mission or two you'd have somebody get sick [and] start throwing up into their air sickness bag," said Navy Captain Aaron Rondeau, a P-3 veteran who now runs the P-8 program. "We haven't seen that much with the P-8."

With its more modern and less rigid wing, "it's a much smoother ride than the P-3," Rondeau explained, and the buoys are now launched by compressed air, without the old system's stink. And that just means, he said, that "If your aircrews aren't sticking their heads in barf bags, they can do their missions better."

Not everyone really cares whether the operators barf in the back and believe in the P-8's higher-altitude approach. "I don't think it will work as well," noted naval expert Norman Polmar said bluntly. "It's rather controversial."

In particular, after some waffling back and forth, the Navy decided to leave off a sensor called the Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD), which can detect the metal hulls of submarines -- if the plane flies low enough. MAD was crucial to the P-3's traditional low-altitude tactics. Significantly, the P-8 variant that Boeing is building for the Indian Navy will still have it; only the US Navy P-8 will not. Both Rondeau and Boeing argue that the P-8 can more than compensate with more sophisticated sensors and by using its superior computing power to interpret their data.

So with the P-8, the Navy is not just replacing a sixties-vintage propeller plane with a more modern jet, derived from the widely used Boeing 737. It's also betting on new technology to enable a high-altitude approach to both long-range reconnaissance and hunting hostile submarines.

Traditional "maritime patrol aircraft" like the P-3 spend part of their time at high altitude but regularly swoop down, sometimes as low as 200 feet above the waves, to drop sonar buoys, scan for subs with the magnetic anomaly detector, launch torpedoes, and simply eyeball unidentified vessels on the surface. But jets like the P-8 are significantly less fuel-efficient at low altitudes than turboprops like the P-3.

"There's a misconception," said Rondeau. "Some people think that that means P-8 can't do low-altitude anti-submarine warfare [ASW]. We can, and it's very effective down low, [but] we will eventually get to the point where we stay at higher altitudes."

For some of the new sub-hunting technologies, Rondeau argued, going higher actually gives you a better look. Today, for example, one key tool is a kind of air-dropped buoy that hits the water and then explodes, sending out a powerful pulse of sound that travels a long way through the water and reflects off the hulls of submarines, creating sonar signals that other, listening-device buoys then pick up. (The technical name is Improved Extended Echo Ranging, or IEER). Obviously, an explosive buoy can only be used once, and the sonar signal its detonation generates is not precisely calibrated. So the Navy is developing a new kind of buoy called MAC (Multistatic Active Coherent), which generates sound electronically, allowing it to emit multiple, precise pulses before its battery runs down.

"It will last longer and you're able to do more things with it," Rondeau said. And because a field of MAC buoys can cover a wider search area, he said, "we need to stay up high... to be able to receive data from all these buoys and control all these buoys at the same time."

An early version of MAC will go on P-3s next year and on P-8s in 2014, but only the P-8 will get the fully featured version, as part of a suite of upgrades scheduled for 2017. The Navy is deliberately going slow with the new technology. Early P-8s will feature systems already proven on the P-3 fleet and will then be upgraded incrementally. The P-8 airframe itself is simply a militarized Boeing 737, with a modified wing, fewer windows, a bomb-bay, weapons racks on the wings, and a beefed-up structure.

This low-risk approach earned rare words of praise from the Government Accountability Office, normally quick to criticize Pentagon programs for technological overreach. "The P-8A," GAO wrote, "entered production in August 2010 with mature technologies, a stable design, and proven production processes." (There have been issues with counterfeit parts from China, however).

"We had to have this airplane on time," Rondeau said: The P-3s were getting so old, and their hulls are so badly metal-fatigued, that they were all too often grounded for repairs.

So far, Boeing has delivered three P-8As to the training squadron in Jacksonville, Florida. They were preceeded by eight test aircraft, some of which have just returned from an anti-submarine exerise out of Guam. The first operational deployment will come in December 2013, to an unspecified location in the Western Pacific. There the Navy will get to test its new sub-seeking techniques against the growing and increasingly effective Chinese underwater force.


Navy's P-8 Sub Hunter Bets On High Altitude, High Tech; Barf Bags Optional

 

[selvan33]

I think Russians will object Brahmos integration(mini brahmos) with P 8I, as for integration, US engineers will have to handle and know details of Brahmos

Anyhow we are not going to install brahmos into it.

 

[selvan33]

Idiots who call themselves as the So Called defence Analysts who don't even know ABCD about defence....Damm even a person with 200 posts {Trolls apart} in this forum has more knowledge in defence related matters then them....I mean this person is writing an article about Indian Navy P-8I and he don't even know that P-8I deal was of 2.2 Billion Dollars....

huh huh really!! you know every nook and corners of that deal huh. dude it's $3.9 bil deal only and not a 2.2 bil.$ deal. just for your sake am posting this links.
India receives first P-8I Neptune aircraft
INDIA RECEIVES FIRST P-8I NEPTUNE AIRCRAFT | Article - Fri 21 Dec 2012 03:53:00 AM UTC | airsoc.com, reach for the sky.
And can you pleaseexplain me what idiotics you found in that article.

 

[Rain]

what a comparison between P3C Orion and P8I, this guy needs some training in writing skills.

 

[INDIAISM]

huh huh really!! you know every nook and corners of that deal huh. dude it's $3.9 bil deal only and not a 2.2 bil.$ deal. just for your sake am posting this links.
India receives first P-8I Neptune aircraft
INDIA RECEIVES FIRST P-8I NEPTUNE AIRCRAFT | Article - Fri 21 Dec 2012 03:53:00 AM UTC | airsoc.com, reach for the sky.
And can you pleaseexplain me what idiotics you found in that article.

Sorry let me correct myself its not 2.2 Billion dollar deal its 2.1 Billion Dollar deal

Navy receives first of P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft
PTI Dec 19, 2012, 07.32PM IST
Tags:
tamil nadu | P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft | Indian Navy | Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Limited | Boeing | Bharat Electronics
(Defence PSU BEL has also&#8230
NEW DELHI: Boosting its anti-submarine warfarecapabilities, the Indian Navy today received its first of the eight P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft from Boeing.
India had signed a deal worth over USD 2.1 billion with the American firm in January 2009 for procuring eight P-8I long-range surveillance aircraft which are equipped with anti-submarineweaponry

Navy receives first of P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft - Economic Times

..

 

[DrSomnath999]

how can someone compare P3 with P 8

it is just like comparing Su 30 with Su 35

common !!!