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Over Parthenon Marbles, Greece Gets Unexpected Ally from the Far east

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https://cn.nytimes.com/world/20191114/parthenon-marbles-xi-jinping-greece-china/dual/

For almost two centuries, Greece and Britain have tussled over who should possess the Parthenon Marbles, the crowning prize of timeless beauty and ancient civilization taken from Athens and now displayed at the British Museum in London.
近两个世纪以来,希腊和英国一直在为谁应该拥有帕特农神庙的大理石雕塑而争论不休。它们是从雅典抢走、象征着永恒之美和古代文明的最高成就,目前陈列在伦敦大英博物馆(British Museum)。
But Greece had an unexpected ally put its finger on the scale on Tuesday, when President Xi Jinping of China expressed support for the return of the works during his state visit to the country.
不过,希腊意外地获得了一个盟友——周二,中国国家主席习近平在对希腊进行国事访问期间,表达了对归还这些文物的支持。
Mr. Xi’s support is just one measure of the growing affinity between the countries, underscored by a two-day visit during which their leaders signed 16 new agreements.
习近平的支持只是两国关系日益密切的体现之一,在为期两天的访问中,两国领导人签署了16项新协议.

On his second day in Athens, Mr. Xi was given a tour of the Acropolis Museum in Athens by President Prokopis Pavlopoulos, who asked for the Chinese leader’s “support in this struggle for the Parthenon sculptures to return here where they belong.”
在雅典的第二天,希腊国家主席普罗科皮斯·帕夫洛普洛斯(Prokopis Pavlopoulos)陪同习近平参观了雅典卫城博物馆(Acropolis Museum)。帕夫洛普洛斯请求习近平“支持帕特农神庙雕塑回归方面的努力”。
“I not only agree with you,’’ Mr. Xi replied in comments broadcast on Greek national television. “Not only will you have our support, but we thank you because we, too, have a lot of our sculptures abroad and we try as much we can, as soon as we can for these things to return to their homeland.”
“我不仅支持你们,我们还应共同努力,”习近平的回复在希腊国家电视台上播放。“由于历史原因,中希两国都有大量珍贵文物流失海外,双方可以加强合作,使这些文物能够尽早回到自己的祖国。”
The sculptures are also known as the Elgin Marbles, after the 19th-century British lord who brought the collection to Britain.
这些雕塑也被称为埃尔金大理石雕塑(Elgin Marbles),以19世纪将这些藏品带到英国的勋爵埃尔金命名。

China has stepped up calls in recent years to repatriate its ancient artifacts, even sending teams of researchers to overseas museums to catalog the more than one million Chinese antiquities it estimates are on display abroad.
中国近年来加大了让古代文物回国的呼声,甚至派出研究团队前往海外博物馆,对据估计在海外展出的100多万件中国文物进行编目。
Over the years, China has successfully recovered a number of artifacts said to have been looted from the Old Summer Palace. Notably, several bronze animal heads are now back in the country after being bought or recovered from their foreign owners by the state-owned China Poly Group Corporation.
数年里,中国成功追回了一些据说是从圆明园掠夺的文物。值得注意的是,国有的中国保利集团从外国所有者手中买下或收回了几个青铜兽首,让它们回到中国。
On Wednesday, China’s National Cultural Heritage Administration announced that another bronze animal head had been recovered and would be displayed alongside the other repatriated relics in an exhibition at the National Museum of China.
周三,中国国家文物局宣布,又发现了一个青铜兽首,并将它与其他回归文物放一起,在中国国家博物馆展出。

These similarities in their history provided a unifying narrative for Chinese and Greek leaders during Mr. Xi’s visit.
习近平访希期间,两国历史上的这些相似之处为中国和希腊领导人提供了一种统一叙事。
In welcoming Mr. Xi, Prime Minister Kiriakos Mitsotakis said that the Greek and Chinese people are “carriers of great ancient civilizations that sealed the course of humanity.”
基里亚科斯·米佐塔基斯(Kiriakos Mitsotakis)总理在欢迎习近平主席时表示,希腊和中国人民是“伟大古代文明的载体,开启了人类前进的道路”。
Mr. Xi, in an article in the Greek newspaper Kathimerini preceding his visit, wrote: “Confucius and Socrates are two masks that cover the same face: the brightest face of human logic,” borrowing a line from the Greek writer Nikos Kazantzakis.
习近平访问前在希腊《每日报》(Kathimerini)上发表的一篇文章中引用希腊作家尼科斯·卡赞扎基斯(Nikos Kazantzakis)的话说:“苏格拉底和孔子是人类的两张面具,面具之下是同一张人类理性的面孔。”

In 2016, COSCO, the Chinese state-owned shipping group, bought more than half of Piraeus, Greece’s biggest port, turning it into the busiest port in the Mediterranean, according to the port.
2016年,中国国有航运集团中远集团收购了希腊最大港口比雷埃夫斯一半以上的股份据该港口的数据,它因此成为了地中海地区最繁忙的港口。

On Tuesday Mr. Xi, Mr. Mitsotakis, and the chairman of COSCO and the Piraeus Port Authority oversaw a deal between the port authority and the European Investment Bank, which agreed on a 20-year, 140-million-euro loan for Piraeus’s expansion and upgrade.
周二,习近平、米佐塔基斯以及中远集团和比雷埃夫斯港务局(Piraeus Port Authority)的主席主持了港务局和欧洲投资银行(European Investment Bank)之间达成一项协议,后者同意为比雷埃夫斯的扩建和升级提供为期20年、1.4亿欧元的贷款。
Greece’s new center-right government under Mr. Mitsotakis welcomed the Chinese investment as well as China’s huge export market for its agricultural goods, according to experts.
专家表示,米佐塔基斯领导下的希腊新中间偏右政府对中国的投资和中国巨大的农产品出口市场表示欢迎。
China, in return, experts say, is keen to deepen its influence in NATO and the European Union, of which Greece is part.
专家表示,作为回报,中国渴望加深在北约(NATO)和欧盟的影响力,希腊是欧盟的一部分。

The Parthenon Marbles include an 80-meter frieze depicting the Great Panathenaia, the ancient Greek feast in honor of the goddess Athena, the muscled body of an ancient Greek river god lounging in midair and voluptuous female figures.
帕特农神庙的大理石雕塑包括一件80米长的浮雕,描绘了泛雅典娜节大庆,这是古希腊为纪念女神雅典娜而举行的盛宴,古希腊河神健壮的身体懒洋洋地躺在半空中,还有丰满妖娆的女性形象。
They were obtained by the British Museum after the British Parliament bought them in 1816 from Lord Elgin, who was a British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire when Greece was still a part of it.
1816年,英国议会从埃尔金勋爵(Lord Elgin)手中买下它们后,大英博物馆得到了它们,埃尔金勋爵是英国驻奥斯曼帝国大使,当时希腊仍是奥斯曼帝国的一部分。

Greece argues that Lord Elgin stole the marbles, making the sale illegitimate, and that the artifacts should be returned to their place of origin.
希腊认为,埃尔金勋爵偷走了这些大理石,因此这笔交易不合法,并称这些文物应该归还原属国。

Mr. Mitsotakis has made the return of the works one of his administration’s priorities, and raised the issue in his opening remarks to the Chinese president during their official dinner on Monday.
米佐塔基斯已将归还这些文物列为其政府的优先事项之一,并在周一的正式晚宴上致开幕词时向习近平主席提出了这个问题。
Mark Stephens, a British lawyer who has been advocating for the repatriation of the marbles, called Mr. Xi’s support an “enormous boon.”
一直主张归还这些大理石的英国律师马克·斯蒂芬斯(Mark Stephens)称习近平的支持“大有帮助”。
“You have a major power weigh in,” he said in a telephone interview on Wednesday.
“现在有一个大国参与介入了,”他在周三接受电话采访时说。
“It was a very low cost gesture of good will to Greece,” Thanos Dokos, Greece’s alternate national security adviser, said in an email on Wednesday.
“这是向希腊示好的一个非常低成本的姿态,”希腊候补国家安全顾问萨诺斯·多克斯(Thanos Dokos)周三在一封电子邮件中写道。

For many Greeks, the fact that the Parthenon Marbles remain at the British Museum is a travesty, said Tatiana Flessas, an associate professor of law at the London School of Economics.
伦敦政治经济学院(London School of Economics)法学副教授塔蒂亚娜·弗莱萨(Tatiana Flessas)表示,对许多希腊人而言,帕特农神庙的大理石雕塑放在大英博物馆是一种嘲弄。
“It is a real cause célèbre,” she said by phone on Wednesday, as both sides want “actual ownership” of the marbles.
“这是一个真正的轰动事件,”她周三在电话中说,因为双方都想要这些大理石的“实际所有权”。
Neither seems ready to budge.
双方似乎都不准备让步。
“The museum’s collections represent the whole world,’’ said Hannah Boulton, a spokeswoman for the British Museum, in a statement on Wednesday. ‘‘It is a unique resource to explore the richness, diversity and complexity of all human history.”
“博物馆的藏品代表了全世界,”大英博物馆发言人汉娜·博尔顿(Hannah Boulton)在周三的声明中说。“它是一种探索人类历史的丰富性、多样性和复杂性的独特资源。”
 
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Xi should take his words seriously and returns the stuffs that his ancestors stole from Viet Nam during the occupation by the Ming.
 
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China Sides with Greece Over Return of Parthenon Marbles
President Xi Jinping, expressed his support of Greece’s request to win back the 2,500-year-old friezes after 30 years of British refusal.

Hakim BisharaNovember 14, 2019

The British Museum in London, which for decades evaded the Greek government’s requests to repatriate the Parthenon Marbles to Athens, is now facing pressure from one of the world’s most powerful leaders, Chinese President Xi Jinping.

Xi expressed his support of Greece’s demand to win back the 2,500-year-old friezes during a visit to the Acropolis Museum on Tuesday, October 12, where he was accompanied by his Greek president Prokopis Pavlopoulos.

The Chinese leader was prompted to take a stance on the issue by Pavlopoulos while the two viewed plaster casts of the marbles. “Imagine this place with the marbles, and [then] imagine how the marbles are at this moment in the British Museum, which is holding them illegally and against every sense of culture,” the Greek president said.

“I totally agree with you,” Xi replied, according to a report by Aljazeera. “Not only will you have my support, we should work together,” the Chinese president continued. “We, too, have our own [treasures] outside the country and are doing everything we can to get them home.”

Parthenon Marbles (also called the Elgin Marbles) were originally part of the temple of the Parthenon in the Acropolis. The British Museum purchased the sculptures about 200 years ago from Lord Elgin, who was serving as the first British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire. Supporters of Elgin claim that he removed the friezes from the at the acropolis with permission from the Ottoman Sultan. Greece, on the other hand, argues that the Ottoman empire was an occupying force and any permission granted during that period is not valid.

In 2013, UNESCO offered the British Museum to mediate a deal between it and the government of Greece, which has been calling for the return of the marbles with for the past 30 years. But the museum has reportedly rejected the request.

Last year, British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn announced that if elected, he would return the friezes to Greece. “They were made in Greece, and that is where they were for thousands of years until they were taken by Lord Elgin,” he told the Greek newspaper told Ta Nea. “We should be engaged in constructive talks with the Greek government about returning the sculptures.”

https://hyperallergic.com/528276/china-sides-with-greece-over-return-of-parthenon-marbles/
 
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Xi should take his words seriously and returns the stuffs that his ancestors stole from Viet Nam during the occupation by the Ming.
I doubt if Vietnam had anything back then other than endless jungles, China gave you everything, writing, culture, philosophy, architecture, goverance... would you like to give them back to us.
 
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I doubt if Vietnam had anything back then other than endless jungles, China gave you everything, writing, culture, philosophy, architecture, goverance... would you like to give them back to us.
Place India where [Vietnam] is and Pakistan where [China] is and you could be talking about our history. We gave Ganga everything when they were endless junglee swamps.
 
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I doubt if Vietnam had anything back then other than endless jungles, China gave you everything, writing, culture, philosophy, architecture, goverance... would you like to give them back to us.

If Vietnam can list their treasures lost to China explicitly with clear names, dates, owners and records etc, I'm willing to give them back.
 
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Xi should take his words seriously and returns the stuffs that his ancestors stole from Viet Nam during the occupation by the Ming.

And I don't think there's any way to verify your claims that happened 6 centuries ago. If you go to French museum, you would probably find Vietnamese treasures with tangible proofs. If you insist on your claims, a clear list of all the treasures lost is the minimal requirement.
 
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https://cn.nytimes.com/world/20191114/parthenon-marbles-xi-jinping-greece-china/dual/

For almost two centuries, Greece and Britain have tussled over who should possess the Parthenon Marbles, the crowning prize of timeless beauty and ancient civilization taken from Athens and now displayed at the British Museum in London.
近两个世纪以来,希腊和英国一直在为谁应该拥有帕特农神庙的大理石雕塑而争论不休。它们是从雅典抢走、象征着永恒之美和古代文明的最高成就,目前陈列在伦敦大英博物馆(British Museum)。
But Greece had an unexpected ally put its finger on the scale on Tuesday, when President Xi Jinping of China expressed support for the return of the works during his state visit to the country.
不过,希腊意外地获得了一个盟友——周二,中国国家主席习近平在对希腊进行国事访问期间,表达了对归还这些文物的支持。
Mr. Xi’s support is just one measure of the growing affinity between the countries, underscored by a two-day visit during which their leaders signed 16 new agreements.
习近平的支持只是两国关系日益密切的体现之一,在为期两天的访问中,两国领导人签署了16项新协议.

On his second day in Athens, Mr. Xi was given a tour of the Acropolis Museum in Athens by President Prokopis Pavlopoulos, who asked for the Chinese leader’s “support in this struggle for the Parthenon sculptures to return here where they belong.”
在雅典的第二天,希腊国家主席普罗科皮斯·帕夫洛普洛斯(Prokopis Pavlopoulos)陪同习近平参观了雅典卫城博物馆(Acropolis Museum)。帕夫洛普洛斯请求习近平“支持帕特农神庙雕塑回归方面的努力”。
“I not only agree with you,’’ Mr. Xi replied in comments broadcast on Greek national television. “Not only will you have our support, but we thank you because we, too, have a lot of our sculptures abroad and we try as much we can, as soon as we can for these things to return to their homeland.”
“我不仅支持你们,我们还应共同努力,”习近平的回复在希腊国家电视台上播放。“由于历史原因,中希两国都有大量珍贵文物流失海外,双方可以加强合作,使这些文物能够尽早回到自己的祖国。”
The sculptures are also known as the Elgin Marbles, after the 19th-century British lord who brought the collection to Britain.
这些雕塑也被称为埃尔金大理石雕塑(Elgin Marbles),以19世纪将这些藏品带到英国的勋爵埃尔金命名。

China has stepped up calls in recent years to repatriate its ancient artifacts, even sending teams of researchers to overseas museums to catalog the more than one million Chinese antiquities it estimates are on display abroad.
中国近年来加大了让古代文物回国的呼声,甚至派出研究团队前往海外博物馆,对据估计在海外展出的100多万件中国文物进行编目。
Over the years, China has successfully recovered a number of artifacts said to have been looted from the Old Summer Palace. Notably, several bronze animal heads are now back in the country after being bought or recovered from their foreign owners by the state-owned China Poly Group Corporation.
数年里,中国成功追回了一些据说是从圆明园掠夺的文物。值得注意的是,国有的中国保利集团从外国所有者手中买下或收回了几个青铜兽首,让它们回到中国。
On Wednesday, China’s National Cultural Heritage Administration announced that another bronze animal head had been recovered and would be displayed alongside the other repatriated relics in an exhibition at the National Museum of China.
周三,中国国家文物局宣布,又发现了一个青铜兽首,并将它与其他回归文物放一起,在中国国家博物馆展出。

These similarities in their history provided a unifying narrative for Chinese and Greek leaders during Mr. Xi’s visit.
习近平访希期间,两国历史上的这些相似之处为中国和希腊领导人提供了一种统一叙事。
In welcoming Mr. Xi, Prime Minister Kiriakos Mitsotakis said that the Greek and Chinese people are “carriers of great ancient civilizations that sealed the course of humanity.”
基里亚科斯·米佐塔基斯(Kiriakos Mitsotakis)总理在欢迎习近平主席时表示,希腊和中国人民是“伟大古代文明的载体,开启了人类前进的道路”。
Mr. Xi, in an article in the Greek newspaper Kathimerini preceding his visit, wrote: “Confucius and Socrates are two masks that cover the same face: the brightest face of human logic,” borrowing a line from the Greek writer Nikos Kazantzakis.
习近平访问前在希腊《每日报》(Kathimerini)上发表的一篇文章中引用希腊作家尼科斯·卡赞扎基斯(Nikos Kazantzakis)的话说:“苏格拉底和孔子是人类的两张面具,面具之下是同一张人类理性的面孔。”

In 2016, COSCO, the Chinese state-owned shipping group, bought more than half of Piraeus, Greece’s biggest port, turning it into the busiest port in the Mediterranean, according to the port.
2016年,中国国有航运集团中远集团收购了希腊最大港口比雷埃夫斯一半以上的股份据该港口的数据,它因此成为了地中海地区最繁忙的港口。

On Tuesday Mr. Xi, Mr. Mitsotakis, and the chairman of COSCO and the Piraeus Port Authority oversaw a deal between the port authority and the European Investment Bank, which agreed on a 20-year, 140-million-euro loan for Piraeus’s expansion and upgrade.
周二,习近平、米佐塔基斯以及中远集团和比雷埃夫斯港务局(Piraeus Port Authority)的主席主持了港务局和欧洲投资银行(European Investment Bank)之间达成一项协议,后者同意为比雷埃夫斯的扩建和升级提供为期20年、1.4亿欧元的贷款。
Greece’s new center-right government under Mr. Mitsotakis welcomed the Chinese investment as well as China’s huge export market for its agricultural goods, according to experts.
专家表示,米佐塔基斯领导下的希腊新中间偏右政府对中国的投资和中国巨大的农产品出口市场表示欢迎。
China, in return, experts say, is keen to deepen its influence in NATO and the European Union, of which Greece is part.
专家表示,作为回报,中国渴望加深在北约(NATO)和欧盟的影响力,希腊是欧盟的一部分。

The Parthenon Marbles include an 80-meter frieze depicting the Great Panathenaia, the ancient Greek feast in honor of the goddess Athena, the muscled body of an ancient Greek river god lounging in midair and voluptuous female figures.
帕特农神庙的大理石雕塑包括一件80米长的浮雕,描绘了泛雅典娜节大庆,这是古希腊为纪念女神雅典娜而举行的盛宴,古希腊河神健壮的身体懒洋洋地躺在半空中,还有丰满妖娆的女性形象。
They were obtained by the British Museum after the British Parliament bought them in 1816 from Lord Elgin, who was a British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire when Greece was still a part of it.
1816年,英国议会从埃尔金勋爵(Lord Elgin)手中买下它们后,大英博物馆得到了它们,埃尔金勋爵是英国驻奥斯曼帝国大使,当时希腊仍是奥斯曼帝国的一部分。

Greece argues that Lord Elgin stole the marbles, making the sale illegitimate, and that the artifacts should be returned to their place of origin.
希腊认为,埃尔金勋爵偷走了这些大理石,因此这笔交易不合法,并称这些文物应该归还原属国。

Mr. Mitsotakis has made the return of the works one of his administration’s priorities, and raised the issue in his opening remarks to the Chinese president during their official dinner on Monday.
米佐塔基斯已将归还这些文物列为其政府的优先事项之一,并在周一的正式晚宴上致开幕词时向习近平主席提出了这个问题。
Mark Stephens, a British lawyer who has been advocating for the repatriation of the marbles, called Mr. Xi’s support an “enormous boon.”
一直主张归还这些大理石的英国律师马克·斯蒂芬斯(Mark Stephens)称习近平的支持“大有帮助”。
“You have a major power weigh in,” he said in a telephone interview on Wednesday.
“现在有一个大国参与介入了,”他在周三接受电话采访时说。
“It was a very low cost gesture of good will to Greece,” Thanos Dokos, Greece’s alternate national security adviser, said in an email on Wednesday.
“这是向希腊示好的一个非常低成本的姿态,”希腊候补国家安全顾问萨诺斯·多克斯(Thanos Dokos)周三在一封电子邮件中写道。

For many Greeks, the fact that the Parthenon Marbles remain at the British Museum is a travesty, said Tatiana Flessas, an associate professor of law at the London School of Economics.
伦敦政治经济学院(London School of Economics)法学副教授塔蒂亚娜·弗莱萨(Tatiana Flessas)表示,对许多希腊人而言,帕特农神庙的大理石雕塑放在大英博物馆是一种嘲弄。
“It is a real cause célèbre,” she said by phone on Wednesday, as both sides want “actual ownership” of the marbles.
“这是一个真正的轰动事件,”她周三在电话中说,因为双方都想要这些大理石的“实际所有权”。
Neither seems ready to budge.
双方似乎都不准备让步。
“The museum’s collections represent the whole world,’’ said Hannah Boulton, a spokeswoman for the British Museum, in a statement on Wednesday. ‘‘It is a unique resource to explore the richness, diversity and complexity of all human history.”
“博物馆的藏品代表了全世界,”大英博物馆发言人汉娜·博尔顿(Hannah Boulton)在周三的声明中说。“它是一种探索人类历史的丰富性、多样性和复杂性的独特资源。”
Hain? Greece needs allies? No. Greece needs money and that's it.
 
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If Vietnam can list their treasures lost to China explicitly with clear names, dates, owners and records etc, I'm willing to give them back.
Ok let’s see: the Ming stole the original 30 volume Book “Đại Việt sử ký” (history of Great Viet). You can start with it. I am pretty sure, the original books are hidden somewhere in the catacombs in Beijing.


Dai_Viet_su_ky_toan_thu___bia_1___w_EZID.jpg
 
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Ok the Ming stole the original 30 volume Book “Đại Việt sử ký” (history of Great Viet). You can start with it. I am pretty sure, the original books are hidden somewhere in the catacombs in Beijing.


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This can't be real. Most small-sized treasures were transferred to Taiwan's Palace Museum by 1949. You really need to double check. Even if China's willing to give it back, it's not in Beijing's museum. You see the problem?
 
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Place India where [Vietnam] is and Pakistan where [China] is and you could be talking about our history. We gave Ganga everything when they were endless junglee swamps.
The Indus valley civilisation is dharmic civilisation. How does Pakistan have to do anything with it? Indus valley civilisation was in similar timeline as Mahabharatha and that is clearly something related to dharma. If anything, current Pakistan becomes illegitimate if one goes to talk of Indus valley civilisation or Takshashila
 
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