Outstanding(Rated) Schools of Birmingham

[KediKesenFare3]

This is very difficult but I am caught between swords ~

• 1. Instinctively I don't like gays. If my son came home and said he had 'gay love' I would best not be pleased. So my personal feelings are against this being taught at schools.
• 2. Tolerance ~ I understand I live in UK and am a minority. I am of Pak extraction anb Muslim. I am well aware that many in the mainstream don't like me or my kind. Indeed some despise us. EDL is a extreme example of that but many more hold similiar if not as extreme views.

So where do I stand. Unfortunately I would have to go with the schools and it's right to teach LGBT rights. If I expect tolerance and diversity from the mainstream I can't very well then pick/choose or refuse to be tolerant to other minorities. This is the price I have to pay living in a liberal, tolerant, diverse friendly society. If this fundamental basis of society I live in is something I can't live with then I better buy a ticket to Pakistan or perhaps Turkey.

@T-123456 @KediKesenFare

On the one hand, I feel bothered by the use of the term 'teaching' in this context. Teaching always includes the intention to guide children into certain behavioural patterns. Teaching involves reflection making the teacher the reflector - and I honestly don't trust a Western teacher to introduce my child into this topic.

I'd rather use the word informing.

It's neutral and it's basically the transmission of information respectively knowledge which is not deniable. For instance, gay people do exist. This is a fact. You're not entitled to hurt them by any means.

In my ideal world, British teachers would explain that our species will die off if all of the humans were gay while informing the children about the individual rights of LGBT people at the same time.

Unfortunately, we don't live in my world.

Apart from that, being a double minority - Pakistani and Muslim/Turk and Muslim - makes us extraordinarily susceptible to racism which not only effects one specific aspect of our lives but all of it on every level.

It's a dilemma which is closely related to our status in the Western society. By any definition, we're bound to make a wrong choice here.

 

[313ghazi]

Agreed. But they do have advantages.

The problem you will find is that what is exactly 'appropriate' is going to be markedly differant from the majority in the country. Most indigenous British are athiest in all intents and purposes and just go along with Christian rituals few times a year.

Yeah and this is where people like us need to work with schools and others in our community to come up with boundaries we're all comfortable with. Like I said earlier, if my kids went to a primary school where there was a trans child, i'd consider it important that the kids at the school are taught about trans identity so the child is not stigmatised. In that scenario it might even make sense to teach the kids that someone who appears to be a boy, might in fact have female body parts and have periods like girls too, but year 5 and 6 might need to know that - not years 1 throught 4.

I think the vast majority of boundaries are common sense we can all agree on; we just need to be presented with and to take an opportunity to be involved so that there is trust between parents and teachers.

As migrants we've experienced discrimination and regardless of how we feel about others sexual choices or gender definitions, i don't want anyone to face bullying or discrimination because of it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This thread is turning into real quality discussion. I really appreciate the posts from @313ghazi @VCheng @KediKesenFare @T-123456 @Menace2Society etc but I have to break off. I will re-join later. I would like to say the same thing for our resident village idiot @Azadkashmir

But alas I can't !

 

[Azadkashmir]

This thread is turning into real quality discussion. I really appreciate the posts from @313ghazi @VCheng @KediKesenFare @T-123456 @Menace2Society etc but I have to break off. I will re-join later. I would like to say the same thing for our resident village idiot @Azadkashmir

But alas I can't !

who are you to call me village idiot you're just a liberal Pakistani who thinks he knows it all and only like to paint pakistanis as negative people. you want us to be like you sorry but that's not how it works.

 

[Death Professor]

I'd rather use the word informing.

It's neutral and it's basically the transmission of information respectively knowledge which is not deniable.

You say it but we have seen cases like these.

Teacher who told kids Santa isn't real removed from New Jersey school district

Not diverting my own thread, but making a point here. It's a fact isn't it? Santa isn't real, so why is above happening then? A person can identify himself to be a cat or dog or attack helicopter, a person can believe in what ever fairy tales he wants to believe but when you start propagating your ideas of belief onto others that is where people should draw a line. You can't expect me to call some one a cat, if he is human. Similarly, you can't expect me to call some a guy, when she biologically is a girl. It's not about being trans-phobic it's about making statements on facts rather than emotions.

 

[insight-out]

Today this, tomorrow something else, all in small incremetal steps. then one day they want sex change becuase it is normal now.

It is true that there is a movement/trend towards normalizing LGBT, and the dominant culture of the majority, especially in "Western" countries, is increasingly embracing this trend.

If you look at it dispassionately, in a democracy that holds moral values to be relative (not enshrined), it cannot be any other way. You cannot promote freedom of expression and freedom of choice while denying the freedom of sexual orientation. The logical trajectory of that is acceptance and tolerance of differences in sexual orientations and practices. That should lead to guarantees of their rights, and that will naturally require its inclusion in the school curriculum. So from a logical point of view it all fits very well within the values of the dominant culture.

Now, if you do not agree with these cultural values, you do have the right to oppose and push back, employing generally accepted norms of protest i.e. social activism, or through your vote. But given that you are a visible, religious, and ethnic minority, you should expect to be seen as an "outsider" trying to impose your own exotic cultural values, even if what you're espousing is no different from others who may be part of the religious/ethnic majority.

If you are unwilling to accept the trend towards normalizing LGBT, and are unwilling to employ legitimate methods of protest, and this issue is a deal breaker for you, then the only other alternative is to move to a society that is more aligned to your values. I do not say this in a derogatory way. It is the pragmatic thing to do, and would be of benefit to you and the community you live in.

 

[313ghazi]

You say it but we have seen cases like these.

Teacher who told kids Santa isn't real removed from New Jersey school district

Not diverting my own thread, but making a point here. It's a fact isn't it? Santa isn't real, so why is above happening then? A person can identify himself to be a cat or dog or attack helicopter, a person can believe in what ever fairy tales he wants to believe but when you start propagating your ideas of belief onto others that is where people should draw a line. You can't expect me to call some one a cat, if he is human. Similarly, you can't expect me to call some a guy, when she biologically is a girl. It's not about being trans-phobic it's about making statements on facts rather than emotions.

I'm not sure the analogy quite works but i think there is a swing of the pendulum too far in the other direction - an over compensation for baseless discrimination.

Now if you or I were to disapprove of homosexuality, we could justify our stance using our religion or our culture. In British society this hasn't been the case since the 50's. For the last 70 years the abuse the homosexual community has faced or the discrimination has been based on bias against their preferences - a rejection of the other (something which is very British). Religiously they don't care, culturally they've declare it ok, but people have still been discriminated against for no offence other than being different. Because there was no ideological support for this bias, there is guilt associated with it and over compensation the other way.

This is a story from Bristol where a white man was banned from the "free speech society" for tweeting women can't have penises.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/student-trans-row-banned-bristol-2536648

Now his statement is a biological fact, but in todays political climate - also a political statement, as this whole thing was a big twitter hashtag a while ago by elements within the LGBQT community who are pushing hard to disassociate gender identity with physical form and associate it with how one "feels" or chooses to identify.

Free speech gives both parties the right to hold their views in my opinion - but the earth is not flat regardless of how many famous people become flat earthers and women don't have penises, regardless of how many people want me to accept an edge case which should be an exception, as the rule.

----

My concern is that primary school children are not equipped to understand this sort of complex arguement. 15, 16 year olds probably are, but certainly not much younger than that.

 

[T-123456]

good for you now wear a dress.

What is the problem,he cant have a different opinion that you start the insults?
Why do you think people respect him?
I really dont like the way some of you Pakistanis treat a well respected countryman.
Dont be an idiot,try be nice to people with different views.

 

[Azadkashmir]

What is the problem,he cant have a different opinion that you start the insults?
Why do you think people respect him?
I really dont like the way some of you Pakistanis treat a well respected countryman.
Dont be an idiot,try be nice to people with different views.

What is the problem,he cant have a different opinion that you start the insults?
Why do you think people respect him?
I really dont like the way some of you Pakistanis treat a well respected countryman.
Dont be an idiot,try be nice to people with different views.

Are you iliterate read his post carefully he called me village idiot for no reason.
He alway does this hit and run tactics. I replied in defence. He disagrees with my view and starts to insult me first. He has in the past ruined my post with his comments.

 

[Safriz]

Yeah we doing the same in Manchester
We don't want our children to grow up gender confused and don't want them to know who bums who and who licks who's carpet

 

[insight-out]

My concern is that primary school children are not equipped to understand this sort of complex arguement. 15, 16 year olds probably are, but certainly not much younger than that.

That is a legitimate concern - one that I share.

 

[Death Professor]

I'm not sure the analogy quite works

Was in reply to the part stated by @KediKesenFare about information. Telling kids about santa not being real is neutral non-deniable information, similarly as you stated telling earth isn't flat is also a non-deniable neutral information. Calling a person with a gender who he has been born with and has lived most of the life with shouldn't be considered as a negative or offensive. I think, LGB should be separated from trans, LGB is a preference or a choice, while T if not biological is a sickness/disease. Trans can have lesbian or gay affair if they want, but they choose not to, they want others to recognize them as they think they are, instead of what they biologically are. And to me that I personally can't do.

 

[T-123456]

Are you iliterate read his post carefully he called me village idiot for no reason.
He alway does this hit and run tactics. I replied in defence. He disagrees with my view and starts to insult me first. He has in the past ruined my post with his comments.

Are you iliterate read his post carefully he called me village idiot for no reason.
He alway does this hit and run tactics. I replied in defence. He disagrees with my view and starts to insult me first. He has in the past ruined my post with his comments.

"good for you now wear a dress."
Come on man,what does this mean?
He called you a village idiot,after your post.

 

[Azadkashmir]

Yeah we doing the same in Manchester
We don't want our children to grow up gender confused and don't want them to know who bums who and who licks who's carpet

ppl on

"good for you now wear a dress."
Come on man,what does this mean?
He called you a village idiot,after your post.

are you stupid he called me village idot

"good for you now wear a dress."
Come on man,what does this mean?
He called you a village idiot,after your post.

I saw a ghost of white Victorian in my dad's grand old house. It's a huge mansion in sprawling gardens built around 1850s. What did the White Victirian ghost say? What the hell are you darkies doing in my country? What the hell are you doing in my house?

And I told him "my mean man the world changed. Women are equal to men, darkies are equal to you, gays are equal to you".


This is what he wrote to me so i replied and why is it he has issues with my replies all the time. if he doesnt like me then he should not reply to me. i told him before dont do hit and run tactics. Why does he ruin my post and insults me.
This is not first time, he has done this before. I bet he wouldnt do that face to face. if i disagree with him then i am backward extremist.

 

[313ghazi]

Yeah we doing the same in Manchester
We don't want our children to grow up gender confused and don't want them to know who bums who and who licks who's carpet

Brother, i would suggest that when you are discussing this issue with people on your community, you use more diplomatic language. As Muslims we consider homosexuality as haram and consider the actions associated with it as sins. In wider society it's considered acceptable and a normal part of life.

A big part of the move towards a wider recognition of LGBQT is to counter the historical marginalisation of these people, by the wider British community. This is why we have what a lot of us see as an over-reaction. Using language that could be construed as homophobic will detract from the many other valid points you are making.

Our cause is not whether LGBQT lifestyles are welcome in Britain or not - our cause should be that our children are introduced to this social aspect, at an age appropriate time, and in a way which is sensitive to their religious and cultural beliefs.