Our yellow stars!

[Wolfhunter]

Allah did define a muslim.



Because U.k is secular country not a religious country.

But Pakistan is a Religious country.

1. And how many of those qualities can be found in non Muslims too?
Ghalib once wrote: Even, men do not succeed always (not always possible) in becoming human. They may be flesh and blood and guts, but they lack the spirit and emotion and empathy that makes them human. It is those difficult tasks/situations that separate the real from the ordinary.

2. The U.K is a Christian Country but we are tolerant and accepting of our minorities and their religions.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Christian a top of Army.

we had no other choice
and Guess what that Christian Chief did? refused to send troops to Kashmir front when we needed them there most
Wo tou Allah Ballah karay Tribals ka k aj 39% kashmir hmare pass ha

No please also share figure of Muslims killed in anti Muslim Attacks #StopMuslimPersecution

 

[Wolfhunter]

No please also share figure of Muslims killed in anti Muslim Attacks #StopMuslimPersecution

Why are you trying to derail the thread, can we discuss the issue at hand please?
@waz sir would you kindly review some of the posts here! I am obliged.

 

[PAKjunoon]

We are talking about religious persecution here, I can debate terrorism with you if you wish, but we can do that by PM as I don't wish to derail this thread. I think we are onto something here. Are Ahmedhis not part of your country, you ask who is penalized more, does it need to be quantified? Is a Muslim life wroth more than an Ahmedhi?

You are the one who said Ahmedis are penalized just because they are Ahmedis. I rejected your point.

You showed that figure to quantify the penalization of Ahmedis, not me.
My point was simple,NO State persecution of Ahmedis happens in Pakistan.

You graph showed that majority of the Ahmedis killed were by terrorists NOT THE STATE!

You are equalizing terrorist attacks with STATE persecution. Which is wrong.These same terrorists killed money other Pakistanis.But you are forgetting other Pakistanis.

Let me repeat my self NO STATE PERSECUTION OF AHMEDIS HAPPEN IN PAKISTAN.

You people keep talking about "Muslims" as if Muslims are the only people living in Pakistan. I don't know if you know this but it was 3 Christian votes that led to the creation of West-Punjba. When the Christian members of league were entering the Constituent Assembly Master Tarah Singh shouted at the stairs of the assembly: “Whoever demands Pakistan will get Qaberastan”, and in return, Mr SP Singha (Christian member of the Punjab Assembly) replied: “We will have the bullets in our chest but we will get Pakistan”.

The Christians believed in Jinnah, Also upon his request, Christian leadership appeared before the Punjab Boundary Commission along with the 35 prominent Christians and asked the boundary commissioner Sir Cyril Redcliffe to consider Christians as part of Pakistan.

Will you cast aside all the good Ahmedhi and Christians and other minorities have done? Names like Abdul Salam, Justice A R Cornelius, Mr Justice Bhagwan Dass, Cecil Chaudhry, Peter O Reilly, and Mervyn L Moddlecoat?

On Mr. Jinnah’s 64th birthday, celebrated on December 25, 1940, Rao Bahadur M.C. Rajah, a Hindu leader of untouchable classes said in his address that “I admire Mr Jinnah and feel grateful to him because, in advocating the cause of the Muslims, he is championing the claims of all classes who stand the danger of being crushed under the steam roller of a [caste-] Hindu majority.”

I keep talking about muslims because muslims are the majority of those killed in Pakistan each year.But they don't complain that it is STATE persecution.

You keep talking about Ahmedis as they are only the one killed in attacks or unjustly?
Don't other Pakistan dies each year?

My problem is this you are trying to create a perception in the mind of reader that the State of Pakistan is deliberately persecuting and penalizing them.

 

[Wolfhunter]

You are the one who said Ahmedis are penalized just because they are Ahmedis. I rejected your point.

You showed that figure to quantify the penalization of Ahmedis, not me.
My point was simple,NO State persecution of Ahmedis happens in Pakistan.

You graph showed that majority of the Ahmedis killed were by terrorists NOT THE STATE!

You are equalizing terrorist attacks with STATE persecution. Which is wrong.These same terrorists killed money other Pakistanis.But you are forgetting other Pakistanis.

Let me repeat my self NO STATE PERSECUTION OF AHMEDIS HAPPEN IN PAKISTAN.



I keep talking about muslims because muslims are the majority of those killed in Pakistan each year.But they don't complain that it is STATE persecution.

You keep talking about Ahmedis as they are only the one killed in attacks or unjustly?
Don't other Pakistan dies each year?

My problem is this you are trying to create a perception in the mind of reader that the State of Pakistan is deliberately persecuting and penalizing them.

You sound really confused, It seems as you didn't read anything I said. I merely made an observation which is based on fact. So far I have yet to see any facts or figures from your side to refute the above, Would be nice to share an impartial source like I have done multiple times on this thread.

Cheers!

 

[PAKjunoon]

Pakistan is presently unjust and unequal towards its minorities, that’s a fact. Confusion is rampant among the population as well as lack of proper direction for the country and its economy.

Asking someone to declare their religion is not unjust or unequal.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Why are you trying to derail the thread, can we discuss the issue at hand please?
@waz sir would you kindly review some of the posts here! I am obliged.

you should show both sides of picture IF Ahemdis killed in terrorist attacks are state persecution than what should I call attacks on mosques schools universities Military installations in which we lost 70K people?

 

[Wolfhunter]

Asking someone to declare their religion is not unjust or unequal.

Why would you wish to know unless you wish to cataloger for future reference? Why have someones religion on their passport?

you should show both sides of picture IF Ahemdis killed in terrorist attacks are state persecution than what should I call attacks on mosques schools universities Military installations in which we lost 70K people?

We are talking about Religious persecution, can you please start from page 1 if you wish to contribute. Cheers! maybe read the opening post and the article in the Dawn that we are discussing!

 

[Reichsmarschall]

We are talking about Religious persecution, can you please start from page 1 if you wish to contribute. Cheers! maybe read the opening post and the article in the Dawn that we are discussing!

we should respect everyone's right to live and practice their faith

 

[Wolfhunter]

we should respect everyone's right to live and practice their faith

That is exactly what I have been saying for the past 6 pages .

 

[PAKjunoon]

1. And how many of those qualities can be found in non Muslims too?
Ghalib once wrote: Even, men do not succeed always (not always possible) in becoming human. They may be flesh and blood and guts, but they lack the spirit and emotion and empathy that makes them human. It is those difficult tasks/situations that separate the real from the ordinary.

You are confusing the definition of Muslim and the characteristics of a GOOD muslim.

To be a Muslim you need to believe in two things:

1. Allah is the our lord and He alone is to be worshiped.
2. Prophet (Peace be Upon him) is the Messenger of Allah and the Final prophet.

The rest are characteristics of a good muslim.

2. The U.K is a Christian Country but we are tolerant and accepting of our minorities and their religions.

The U.K is a secular country.I know Queen is the official head of the country and she is also the head of Anglican church.But this does not make U.k a christian country.Because Queen is just a nominal head.The real leader is P.M.

U.K is secular country because its people wishes and the country's legislature are under no obligation to implement Christian laws.Which is not the case of Pakistan.

You sound really confused, It seems as you didn't read anything I said. I merely made an observation which is based on fact. So far I have yet to see any facts or figures from your side to refute the above, Would be nice to share an impartial source like I have done multiple times on this thread.

Cheers

I did not deny your observation which you based on fact.

I merely observed that no STATE persecution of Ahmedis exists in Pakistan.

If you have any proof to contrary please show me.

DO you deny the fact that no state persecution of Ahmedis exists?

We are talking about Religious persecution, can you please start from page 1 if you wish to contribute.

Show me the religious persecution.

In 9 pages you could not prove any state persecution.

 

[Wolfhunter]

The U.K is a secular country.

• 59% of the population is Christian
• Christian Calender
• Christian Culture and traditions
• Christian head of state
• Established Anglican and Catholic Church with Diocese of both
• There are no such things as "Christan laws"

The UK Legal frame work has the following legal Structures:

1. Common Law
2. English Law
3. Welsh & Northern Irish Law
4. Scots Law

There is no such thing as "Christian Law".

Show me the religious persecution.

In 9 pages you could not prove any state persecution.

I have posted linked from numerous news sources. If you are too lazy to go through the forum I will link them again:
1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ear-becoming-election-scapegoat-idUSKBN1DG04H
2. http://www.dw.com/en/the-persecution-of-ahmadis-in-pakistan-and-beyond/a-36748924
3. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/o...hmadis-constant-pakistan-161218113353263.html
4. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-of-the-ahmadis-must-not-be-allowed-to-spread
5. https://nation.com.pk/24-Dec-2016/p...n-pakistan-contradicts-the-teachings-of-islam

 

[Adnan81]

You are confusing the definition of Muslim and the characteristics of a GOOD muslim.

To be a Muslim you need to believe in two things:

1. Allah is the our lord and He alone is to be worshiped.
2. Prophet (Peace be Upon him) is the Messenger of Allah and the Final prophet.

The rest are characteristics of a good muslim.



The U.K is a secular country.I know Queen is the official head of the country and she is also the head of Anglican church.But this does not make U.k a christian country.Because Queen is just a nominal head.The real leader is P.M.

U.K is secular country because its people wishes and the country's legislature are under no obligation to implement Christian laws.Which is not the case of Pakistan.




I did not deny your observation which you based on fact.

I merely observed that no STATE persecution of Ahmedis exists in Pakistan.

If you have any proof to contrary please show me.

DO you deny the fact that no state persecution of Ahmedis exists?


Show me the religious persecution.

In 9 pages you could not prove any state persecution.

Asw,
Wrong definition of Muslims.
This is right one by no one but Holy Prophet s.a.w himself:

In this context, I quote below, two sayings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH):

1. Hazrat Abu Hurairah relates that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said :’Ask me question”, but (his companions) were diffident to ask. Meanwhile, a man came in and sat in front of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and asked: ‘What is Islam?” The Holy Prophet (PBUH) replied: ‘Do not associate partners with Allah, offer prayer, pay Zakat and fast in Ramadhan’. The man replied: ‘You have spoken the truth’. (Muslim – Kithab ul Iman.)

2. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said: ‘One who observes the same prayer as we do, faces the same direction (in prayer) as we do, and partakes from the animal slaughtered by us, then such a one is a Muslim concerning whom there is a covenant of Allah and His Messenger; so you must not seek to hoodwink Allah in the matter of this Covenant’. (Bukhari – Kitabus Salat, Baab – Fazl Istiqbal Il Qibla)

Now Ahmadi Beliefs by none other but their founder himself:

"The five pillars of Islam constitute our Creed. The Revelation of God viz., the Quran which we are commanded to hold firmly on, that indeed we hold firmly on. God be pleased with Umar: Like him we have the words ‘sufficient unto us is the Book of God’ constantly on our lips. In case of conflict and disagreement between the Hadith and the Quran we follow Hazrat Ayesha (God be pleased with her) and choose the Quran, especially in the historical texts treated by all schools as above abrogation. And we believe that there is no deity, no one worthy of worship, but only Almighty Allah that our Master Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of God be upon him), is His Rasul and Khatamal-Anbiya. And we believe that angels exist, that the resurrection of bodies after death is true, that the Day of Reckoning is also true, that Djenah (Paradise) and Gehenna (Hell) are also true. We believe that every thing taught about these matters by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet is true. We believe that he who seeks to subtract an iota from this or to add an iota to this – the Shariah of Islam and also he who makes light of the statutes and practices of Islam is devoid of belief, a denier of Islam. We counsel our Jamaat to put true and sincere faith in the Holy Kalima, La Illaha Ill-Allah, Muhammad al-Rasul-Allah, to live and die by it, also to believe in all prophets and in all books, the truth of which is sanctioned by the Quran; to observe in letter and in spirit the Fasts, Prayers, Zakat and Pilgrimage and all prescriptions and prohibitions laid down by Almighty Allah and His Prophet. We counsel them in short that their belief should include all beliefs and all rules of conduct agreed upon unanimously by early Muslims, that is, all matters accepted as part of Islam by the consensus of Ahl-i-Sunna. There is no option. And we hold heaven and earth as witness that this is our creed and this is our faith (Ayyamal Sulh pg. 86-87)

 

[PAKjunoon]

• 59% of the population is Christian
• Christian Calender
• Christian Culture and traditions
• Christian head of state
• Established Anglican and Catholic Church with Diocese of both
• There are no such things as "Christan laws"

The UK Legal frame work has the following legal Structures:

1. Common Law
2. English Law
3. Welsh & Northern Irish Law
4. Scots Law

There is no such thing as "Christian Law".




I have posted linked from numerous news sources. If you are too lazy to go through the forum I will link them again:
1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ear-becoming-election-scapegoat-idUSKBN1DG04H
2. http://www.dw.com/en/the-persecution-of-ahmadis-in-pakistan-and-beyond/a-36748924
3. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/o...hmadis-constant-pakistan-161218113353263.html
4. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-of-the-ahmadis-must-not-be-allowed-to-spread
5. https://nation.com.pk/24-Dec-2016/p...n-pakistan-contradicts-the-teachings-of-islam

All the articles are mentioning an incident which happened in In Dec,2016.

I agree it was wrong.But on basis of 1 or 2 incident you can't declare state persecution.

These wer don by non governmental groups. Not the state.

More muslim on muslim violence happen as compared to
Muslim on Ahmedis. But still it is not supported by the State in anyway.

Stop creating a perception that the State is persecuting Ahmedis.

 

[Jugger]

Asking someone to declare their religion is not unjust or unequal.

Asking is not unequal but forcing to declare is discriminatory.
You have used the word asking please use the correct word i.e forcing.

Since Pakistan is a non secular state, all religious minority are by constitution inferior to a Muslim ( to be clear:Sunni man)
They can never attain the high posts in your government.

That’s why I say Pakistan is confused towards the direction it is heading.