‘Ops in tribal areas could split Pak army’

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Maddy,

It is indeed nice to find South Asians in the forefront over the brainless Bedouin wonders!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As much as I would like agree with your post, for the most part, i think it is very apt within the context of the forum where posting anti-national slurs is the best thing some unemployed can achieve in their natural lives and nothing more than public display adoloscent machoism, a lame attempt to seek personal gratification that is hard to find in their real life.

But to completely dismiss the concept of Akhand Bharat, is also ludacris. International boundaries have been redrawn time and again, more than one cares to remember in the recent past.

Israel came into existance from oblivion. The mighty USSR was dismembered. China annexed Tibet and should everything go its way, same future awaits Taiwan. US granted psuedo-statehood to Puerto Rico, soon it might well become the 51st State. Boundaries are fast dissappearing among European nations though not literally as yet.With this in mind, we can only but guess the geographical structure few decades from now.

It is as indeed sad that a wonderful concept of Akhand Bharat has become more of a Hindu fundamentalist cliche more than anything else. It is owing to this grand strategy that territories such as Sikkim, Goa and Hyderabad Deccan are a part of today's Indian Republic. These are better examples of Indian diplomacy and in most cases might. Whether right means were employed while annexing these territories or not, is a discussion for another day.

Agreed, Pakistan and Bangladesh are soverign entities in their own right and pursuing their won destiny, we wish them the best. But, it is something that would perhaps haunt us forever, the very thought of one great secular multi-ethinic nation from the borders of Afghanistan to Burma, from Kashmir to kanyakumari is too cheesy of a thought to let go. The Akhand Bharat as original envisoined is not feasible anymore and atleast not in India's current socio-economic senario. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh are good as a lost cause.

But, the same cant be said about kashmir as yet. Boundaries are fast disolving in the face economic vaibility and human convinience, in the case of small nations. India has a strong influence over Bhutan and to some extent Nepal. Should the influence grow as India evolves, we might indeed see a redrawn India. As long as there is the political will and motivation, to label something as unachievable is rather naive.

Thoughout the history of mankind, nations were formed, flourished, risen to greatness and fallen to dust, and again consolidated along same underlying idealogies more often than not, only with a different shape. And, a few decades is short time with referrence to the history of Nations. And there is no reason to assume there will not be any geographical changes in the future. Only time can tell what the future has in store for us.

This concept of "Akhand Bharat" as it is currently defined, is a flawed one. I have no quarrel with the general principles of interfaith, inter ethnic and interracial harmony you espouse; it is the suggestion that South Asia, or any region, needs to be a monolithic entity to achieve that. That line of thinking has been tried, has ended in failure and been debunked. The new model is not one of creating a unified entity, but an association of several, within a framework of close cooperation, that simultaneously takes advantage of both the combined potential of the member entities, while also allowing them to exist independently as they see fit. Your own country has moved in this direction, by allowing states to have more and more autonomy. To suggest that what cannot be accomplished at the state/province level, would be workable at the nation/country level is foolishness and a misguided dream. If anything, aspirations towards the creation of such a monolithic "Akhand Bharat", no matter how well meaning and immersed in "unity of the human race" ideals as they may be, are what perpetuate the suspicion in the minds of Pakistanis that India shall never accept Pakistan.

Boundaries are fast dissolving, and maps redrawn, but in the direction of creating more and more "independent" entities, as races/religions/tribes/ethnicities strive to control their own destinies. The Ottoman empire, the Balkans, Israel, the sub continent, Africa; they all point to a failure of the "Akhand Bharat" concept. The regions that will be truly successful (eg. EU, ASEAN) will be the ones that accept this, and work on new ways to harness their combined potential. Continuing to harp on the failed "monolithic entity" concept, only deepens mistrust and creates roadblocks in the way of trying and adopting new concepts of cooperative existence.

 

[joey]

Hey I've already argued that "waiting" is in Pakistan's best interest anyway. Why let India win via a "soft" invasion in which it exercises its economic superiority? Fifty years, a hundred years, the longer the wait, the stronger Pakistan and the Pakistani identity. Shoot yourself in the foot "Akhand Bharat" supporters.

No one supports Akhand bharat and I pity them who does I think supporting Akhand bharat without thinking logically is a Hindu Xenophobia much like ummah which has no basis in reality, MAddy was giving out a alternative argument by supporting his stance of Akhand bharat once to put forward for the sake of a argument is what I believe. If you see Maddy has clearly mentioned,

"Akhand Bharat as original envisoined is not feasible anymore and atleast not in India's current socio-economic senario."

What is being talked about is Resolving of Kashmir and facilitation of trade and better life in the area, But there is problem as you said pakistani market being flooded by Indian but hey there can always be trade bloc formation with ones own right to protect his market from which trade flows.

The resolving of Kashmir is not in many countries direct interest, IT can encroach havoc if the same is done in right manner in right way protecting each other markets and making a dynamic link of Asia and Europe.

Imagine a oil line from Arab to Iran to Pak to Ind to China to Rus to Europe.

This is something I'm looking forward to seeing. How will it develop. I'm sure the Bharat influence will be shrugged off sooner or later. This will only be a good thing. Pakistan should not look West for culture, it has it all within its borders from the Indus Valley to the Aryan invasions and Gandhara. The culture should be Islamic, and personally I think that Sufism is what enamoured Pakistani ancestors into converting to Islam so a combination of all these would make a unique culture. I'd definitely prefer Sanskrit to Urdu since it's Pakistan's language, not Bharat's..though they can use it of course. Unfortunately this all depends on the fashion people of Pakistan, the teaching, the monkeys in the media might play a part..it might take a bit longer than expected.

Seriously, Do you even realise your making a fool out of yourself? Facts and Myths should not be conjenctured, The definition of Culture is entirely different from what your post makes it seems like not withstanding the glorious Phd that you hold in linguistics.

We/You are being industrialised, a European concept, The share your holding which will feed you later is a Western Economic model, You cannot change the world order this way because it was never started by us but can falicitate yourself in within yourself or by following the Middle Path which many does akin to Middle path of Buddha type, The communists tried they failed.

 

[blitz]

Akhand Bharat ? hell no !! It would be India's ultimate nightmare if Pakistan or Bangladesh joined the union. So its my wish to clarify Pakistanis and BDs here that relax, we do not want to integrate you in anyway into India. It was a pure stroke of luck the subcontinent was divided, India got very lucky.

Now for Agnostic's question, the 'right time' was in context of AK [Azad Kashmir]. It should and would be part of India, sooner or later [in my opinion, so no need to give me explanations about right and wrong]. Like Maddy elaborated, the concept of permanent national boundaries are a new phenomenon, no more than 70 years old. Boundaries will be redefined in the future, as they have in the past. There will come a 'right time' for India to swallow AK into the union. Its a strategic piece of land, which can connect India to Central Asia and end Pakistan's monopoly over access to CAR. And like i said earlier, India is playing the long game. The long game means India, due to its inherent civilizational strength, can wait 100s of years to achieve an objective. Ask the Chinese what it means, they do it best. Sow the seeds for something that will bear fruits 5 generations after. Thats called the 'long game'. India is waiting, the law of probability and critical mass is on our side.

My version of Akhand Bharat includes AK, Nepal, and Bhutan into India. Sri Lanka would be a great addition if circumstances permit. Thats it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Akhand Bharat ? hell no !! It would be India's ultimate nightmare if Pakistan or Bangladesh joined the union. So its my wish to clarify Pakistanis and BDs here that relax, we do not want to integrate you in anyway into India. It was a pure stroke of luck the subcontinent was divided, India got very lucky.

Now for Agnostic's question, the 'right time' was in context of Azad Kashmir [Pakistani occupied Kashmir]. It should and would be part of India, sooner or later [in my opinion, so no need to give me explanations about right and wrong]. Like Maddy elaborated, the concept of permanent national boundaries are a new phenomenon, no more than 70 years old. Boundaries will be redefined in the future, as they have in the past. There will come a 'right time' for India to swallow Azad Kashmir into the union. Its a strategic piece of land, which can connect India to Central Asia and end Pakistan's monopoly over access to CAR. And like i said earlier, India is playing the long game. The long game means India, due to its inherent civilizational strength, can wait 100s of years to achieve an objective. Ask the Chinese what it means, they do it best. Sow the seeds for something that will bear fruits 5 generations after. Thats called the 'long game'. India is waiting, the law of probability and critical mass is on our side.

My version of Akhand Bharat includes Azad Kashmir, Nepal, and Bhutan into India. Sri Lanka would be a great addition if circumstances permit. Thats it.

I don't really see any logical analysis that outlines situations and or events/series of events that could lead to the "favorable" result of this "long game" you mentioned. Just a wish list based on the opinions/views India holds about its "destiny". While I can see a possible connection between China "waiting out " Taiwan, and their "possible" unification, I can also see Taiwan being the actual victor in such a scenario; with mainland China embracing some form of representative government, and the different provinces being given autonomy. Of course this scenario would also require the "approval" of the Taiwanese, that or the demise of the West to the point that they would not be able to confront China. There is also the added complexity, as far as your analogy to PK merging with India is concerned, of Taiwan not being contested by another nation.

I would like to know what "seeds" you believe China is "sowing", that could possibly apply to this idea of India gaining PK, and what the Indian "seeds" are. In my opinion, if the conflict stays unresolved that long, the LOC becoming an international border is the most likely outcome.

 

[joey]

blitz your complicating things.
Lets make things simple,

1. We are talking of Indo-Pak trade border issues.
2. Kashmir is what being talked off, and the positive and netaive of a border settlement at its earliest.
3. By no right means we can get PK or Pakistan can get IK for that matter without war so its useless downright to me.

Please dont go off topic, I think i'm pretty much clear make LOC permanent border, and falicitate trade as per ones own interest, there is a host of market everyone can explored which remains un explored.

I dont see any negative other than If Pakistan truly does not wants to make LOC IB, like it has been doing then its different altogather.

 

[EagleEyes]

Akhand Bharat ? hell no !! It would be India's ultimate nightmare if Pakistan or Bangladesh joined the union. So its my wish to clarify Pakistanis and BDs here that relax, we do not want to integrate you in anyway into India. It was a pure stroke of luck the subcontinent was divided, India got very lucky.

Now for Agnostic's question, the 'right time' was in context of Azad Kashmir [Pakistani occupied Kashmir]. It should and would be part of India, sooner or later [in my opinion, so no need to give me explanations about right and wrong]. Like Maddy elaborated, the concept of permanent national boundaries are a new phenomenon, no more than 70 years old. Boundaries will be redefined in the future, as they have in the past. There will come a 'right time' for India to swallow Azad Kashmir into the union. Its a strategic piece of land, which can connect India to Central Asia and end Pakistan's monopoly over access to CAR. And like i said earlier, India is playing the long game. The long game means India, due to its inherent civilizational strength, can wait 100s of years to achieve an objective. Ask the Chinese what it means, they do it best. Sow the seeds for something that will bear fruits 5 generations after. Thats called the 'long game'. India is waiting, the law of probability and critical mass is on our side.

My version of Akhand Bharat includes Azad Kashmir, Nepal, and Bhutan into India. Sri Lanka would be a great addition if circumstances permit. Thats it.

Add a remote control car with those countries in your list.

 

[blitz]

Agnostic to answer your question, its a fallacy when people say that to get Azad Kashmir, war is the only option. Yes it is one of the options, and a very bad one at that, but there are other ways to do it. If people do not start hating me, i will try and give a fictional case. It obviously depends on a series of evens coming true before that. First is happenings in Pakistan, events in India, and global events.

If the current instability in Pakistan increases, the religious and ethnic fault lines will be exposed. Right now the major fault line within Pakistani society is religious i.e. extremist v army v liberals. But Even our Pakistani members cannot deny that under the surface there exist ethnic divisions between Baloch and Punjabi, Pashtun and Punjabi, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Sindhis. If the writ of the government keeps receding from the hinterlands like right now, these separatist movements will gain momentum, and after a critical mass is achieved by either of them, it will lay the foundations of Pakistan exposed. Now on their own these movements are bound to fail, but if a foreign power, like the US starts exploiting these fault lines for its own benefit, it would give these movements recognition. The most important help that these movements need is diplomatic recognition and world support. This the US and India can do easily. Afghanistan's refusal to recognize the border has created the basis for NWFP's secession. Baluchistan freedom movement, if supported by Iran, US and India will provide the basis for secession of Baluchistan. And so on so forth.

Now what India needs to do is strengthen its ties with Afghanistan, US, Iran and keep its claim of Azad Kashmir open. It also needs to question the stability of Pakistan in world forums and media, in order to sow the seeds of doubt in the mind of foreigners and Pakistanis alike about the viability of their state, and tsk tsk, thats exactly what India is doing. The aim would be to dis integrate Pakistan from within without resorting to war, by exploiting the ethnic fault lines in the society and a creating doubt about the viability of Pakistan as a nation in the world view. The raw materials all exist, only a good cook is needed. If and when this implosion happens, India should be at peace within its borders, and economically sound. In that scenario India can offer a chaotic Azad Kashmir the choice of ascession into the union with the promise of stability and prosperity, or India could just move in and occupy Azad Kashmir while Pakistan is being created all over again. The ideal solution would be an independent Balochistan, NWFP absorbed in Afghanistan, and a truncated Pakistan comprising Punjab and Sindh only.

Yes this is a far fetched scenario, but like i said, the raw materials for this recipe all exist even now. It might take decades or even centuries, but India can wait.

ahhh don't hate me now !! Just wet dreams of Brahmin hindus. Im not even a brahmin though

 

[roadrunner]

But Even our Pakistani members cannot deny that under the surface there exist ethnic divisions between Baloch and Punjabi, Pashtun and Punjabi, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Sindhis.

I deny it. You obviously dont know that a large part of Pak Army are recruited from even the tribal areas of NWFP. What you perceive to be a faultine along ethnic lines is nothing more than wishful thinking of some Bharatis dressed up as Paks on internet forums generally.

but if a foreign power, like the US starts exploiting these fault lines for its own benefit, it would give these movements recognition. The most important help that these movements need is diplomatic recognition and world support. This the US and India can do easily.

Lol, Bharat cannot do anything. And most of the foreign powers have already tried in Balochistan. If it were so easy, Pakistan would not be here today. In fact I'm willing to place a bet with you Pakistan will be here in 10 years time, and you and the rest will be saying the same thing about there being faultlines along ethnic lines

Afghanistan's refusal to recognize the border has created the basis for NWFP's secession. Baluchistan freedom movement, if supported by Iran, US and India will provide the basis for secession of Baluchistan. And so on so forth.

Dreams

Now what India needs to do is strengthen its ties with Afghanistan, US, Iran and keep its claim of Azad Kashmir open. It also needs to question the stability of Pakistan in world forums and media, in order to sow the seeds of doubt in the mind of foreigners and Pakistanis alike about the viability of their state, and tsk tsk, thats exactly what India is doing.

LOL . Dude that's so funny I'm actually laughing. What a plan! You're going to sow the seeds of doubt in Pakistani minds ................... by using the internet!! Dude, most Pakistanis couldnt give two hoots what's written on an internet forum, and the ones in Pakistan are more aware of the situation than you are so how are you going to "sow the seeds of doubts" into their minds when you have enough of an inferiority complex to worship lighter skinned folk - there's a huge contradiction in there especially when you're going to convince lighter people of the dastardly plan you just gave away on the internet!! but at least you admit to impersonating

The aim would be to dis integrate Pakistan from within without resorting to war, by exploiting the ethnic fault lines in the society and a creating doubt about the viability of Pakistan as a nation in the world view. The raw materials all exist, only a good cook is needed. If and when this implosion happens, India should be at peace within its borders, and economically sound. In that scenario India can offer a chaotic Azad Kashmir the choice of ascession into the union with the promise of stability and prosperity, or India could just move in and occupy Azad Kashmir while Pakistan is being created all over again. The ideal solution would be an independent Balochistan, NWFP absorbed in Afghanistan, and a truncated Pakistan comprising Punjab and Sindh only.

Yes this is a far fetched scenario, but like i said, the raw materials for this recipe all exist even now. It might take decades or even centuries, but India can wait.

ahhh don't hate me now !! Just wet dreams of Brahmin hindus. Im not even a brahmin though :

No hate, but I can say there's as much if not more chance of a lower caste revolt happening in Bharat or an Assamese rebellion happening.

 

[blitz]

"how are you going to "sow the seeds of doubts" into their minds when you have enough of an inferiority complex to worship lighter skinned folk - there's a huge contradiction in there especially when you're going to convince lighter people of the dastardly plan you just gave away on the internet!! but at least you admit to impersonating"

roadrunner, could you be any more racist ? Mods please take not, this is not the first time. He has been using veiled racist commentary since his very first post on this forum.

 

[roadrunner]

well, it's not racist.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Blitz,

Interesting scenario. It was the one I expected you to bring up. I remember thinking about the plausibility of this theory back when it was first released by the author (whose name I cannot remember). Lets start off with the domestic parties involved; the most they can ever do is what they are doing right now; unleashing a reign of terror using these horrendous suicide bombings and attacks on soldiers. We lost a hundred soldiers in less than a week. Did you hear panic alarms? Concern, yes; Questions about Musharraf's future, yes. Questions about how the problem should be tackled, yes. But no one even thought that this could be the beginning of the end of Pakistan.

You're musing about exploiting the "fault lines" in Pakistani society, let me give you the biggest one of all that you forgot to include in your dastardly and devious plan. The Tribal areas.
Autonomous, no rule of the Pakistani government, obsessed with following a medieval code which is anathema to the majority of Pakistanis, closer ties to Afghanistan (familiary and cultural), a perceived "occupation", and subsequent "dishonor", by the Pakistani Army; an Army led by a government perceived to be doing the bidding of the "Great Satan" with whose forces the Tribals are at war. Does that sound Armageddonish (as far as Pakistan is concerned) enough to you? Yet despite all this, not one Taliban commander, not one Tribal leader, not one Pakhtun leader has suggested that the "tribal areas" secede from Pakistan. No need for "ingredients" here, its a ready made meal, currently microwaved to perfection. If this fault line can not be used for secession (and part of me almost wishes it was), there is no chance of any others succeeding. And the way things are going, if some one does start talking about secession in this region, you wont have to wait fifty years to find out if it worked.

As far as the U.S (west) supporting the "Brahmin wet dreams" of a non Brahmin, I would like to see how the suggestion for destabilizing a country with nuclear weapons, and the delivery systems to use them on U.S interests in the region, is going to go down in Washington. Oh wait, I know why the U.S will accept this plan; you forgot to mention that India will send in its force of Transformers, led by the Black Cat commandos who will have perfected the art of freezing people in their tracks by merely looking at them, and whose skin will have been genetically modified to be impervious to bullets and NBC weapons, to grab all of Pakistan's nukes simultaneously! Brilliant! And since we are sure to not be privy to ALL the details of this finely crafted plan, perhaps Voltron and the Gobots will show up too! All finely crafted by DRDO, HAL etc.

 

[blitz]

Lol Agnostic, i haven't seen transformers yet, but you make me want to see it now. Anyways, all that i said earlier basically boils down to, there are forces in Pakistan that "may" cause the boundaries to be redrawn in the future. And that is how India "could" get Azad Kashmir. Whether it will come to pass, no one knows. This was in response to your question about what "right time" is India waiting for.

Secondly, the USSR was filled to the brim with nukes. The world didn't end in a nuclear holocaust when it imploded, why should it if Pakistan does ?

Anyways, we have gotten waaay off topic so ill stay quite now.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thank you for taking my last post in good humor. I thought I might as well ease the mood with some light hearted fun. By the way, I have heard the transformer movie is cooooooool. Crazy about the Transformers growing up, so I can't wait to see it myself.

Peace.

 

[blitz]

By the way, one last addition to what i was saying earlier. My stand is make LOC the permanent border. Its the safest most sensible thing to do. All other options are too bloody to be considered by sane people.