Operations in Dir and Buner

[All-Green]

I have to agree with Blain2 and S-2 here

The TTP and their supporters are on a whole different scale than the small forest warfare conducted by Kashmiri Separatists.
TTP has lots of battalions and plenty of ammunition including quad AA guns and many multipurpose weapons...the trenches and defensive network encountered in Bajaur operation leaves no doubt about the manpower, resources and stiff resistance offered by such a group to any infantry...even elite formations
Joint operations are the way to go here and Artillery, Air force and tanks shall make all the difference between victory and defeat.

We have to see that over the years TTP has come to believe that they can hold territory in face of PA...this belief and this aura of invincibility has been reinforced by the peace deal...now i hated how these goons rubbed it in our faces but it may come to pass that their arrogance actually becomes their downfall...

I perceive that once they are broken they will come down to 10-20 man teams doing hit and run but for now it is round one and TTP would try to take on PA in conventional warfare...

Many of us know just how serious the PA is this time in dealing a crippling blow...it was funny to see some people commenting on how the pictures are not real war pictures etc., i did not reply because actions always speak louder than words and we know what is happening...PA is deploying for all out war and not some small CI operation...I am sure TTP is dug in for War as well.

FC is really being improved for CI operations and we shall see the hammer in the form of Army and the Anvil which shall be the FC when the TTP runs back to Tribal areas.

Kiyani has appointed one of his best generals as commander FC and i am sure we shall see the difference in just a couple of years, FC is evolving into a much more effective force and TTP actions against the FC actually help build anti TTP sentiments in the tribals since FC are their brethren...this is the only way to ensure that tribal areas become hostile to TTP and do not let these hornets nest in Pakistan!

 

[white_pawn]

Military ordered to eliminate militants: Prime Minister takes the nation into confidence

ISLAMABAD ( 2009-05-08 03:34:03 ) Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Thursday announced a full-fledged military operation against militants in Swat, Buner and Malakand Division by calling army to eliminate militants after failing to restore peace in NWFP despite signing the controversial Nizam-e-Adl Regulation last month.

In his address to the nation, the Prime Minister said that the government has finally decided to eliminate militants in Swat, Malakand Division and other parts of NWFP, who have openly challenged writ of the government and tried to enforce their own brand of Shariah at gun point.

The government, he said, has decided not to bow down before terrorists and extremists and would force them to lay down their arms to protect life and property of people at all costs and there can't be any compromise on that. The Prime Minister said these elements want to hold the country of Quaid-e-Azam and Allama Iqbal hostage by making bleak the future of the nation.

He sought co-operation of the nation for supporting the government and the armed forces to foil their malicious designs. Gilani also sought co-operation of public, political and religious parties and civil society to join hands in getting rid of the menace of militancy and extremists, who what he said, destroyed not only peace but also the very image of Islam.

Gilani said the nefarious activities of extremists, terrorists and militants to disrupt peace and security have reached a stage where the government was constrained to take decisive steps.

The Prime Minister said the decisive step was taken after holding consultations with the political parties and other stakeholders. It was paramount important to call forces to ensure safety and security of the people who have been made hostage by the terrorist elements in the name of self-styled Shariah.

The Prime Minister said that Rs 1 billion have been provided for the rehabilitation of the internally displaced persons and announced that employment will be provided to one member of a family which has lost any of its member at the hands of terrorists. He urged the political and religious parties, youth and civil society organisations to come forward and help Pakistan and project the real essence of Islam and prove that there is no room for suicide attacks, barbarism and humiliation of women in Islam as the religion believes in peace, harmony and brotherhood.

The Prime Minister appealed to the international community to help Pakistan in looking after the internally displaced persons and cooperate with the country to enhance the capacity of its law enforcement institutions. He said two challenges are being faced by the country. The first, he said, national security and the second economic development, which he said, are co-related and for which entire nation has to demonstrate unity.

He said that the nation is facing a number of internal and external challenges and the government wants to provide its citizens peace, prosperity and development for which the internal security is essential. Gilani lamented that Taliban considered the peace deal as a weakness of the government and not only refused to give up arms agreed as per the agreement, but also challenged writ of the government by occupying more areas of the province.

He said that they attacked security forces, destroyed schools and hospitals. And not only this, he said, the Taliban also killed and tortured innocent civilians, humiliated women and minorities and compelled them to flee the area.

In the name of Islam, extremists also projected a shameful image of Islam, by beheading people, by making discrimination with women and minorities. He said the government made every endeavour for resolution of the issue through peaceful means and that is why it preferred peace accord despite internal and external pressures.

The NWFP government signed the peace agreement and the Federal Government endorsed it after unanimous resolution. However, militants continued violating the accord, attacked security forces and targeted government installations and buildings. They started taking hostile actions against the Constitution, parliament, democracy and judiciary which amounted to challenging writ of the government, necessitating the decisive action.

AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz

 

[All-Green]

white_pawn

thread to the PM's address is already opened
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/26275-army-called-eliminate-terrorists-swat-pm.html

cheers

 

[S-2]

"I perceive that once they are broken they will come down to 10-20 man teams doing hit and run but for now it is round one and TTP would try to take on PA in conventional warfare..."

I wonder, too. First things first, though, while clearly having an eye to the post-battle reconstruction and rehabilitation. Somebody in your government needs to model and begin forming teams to go in with the army and make assessments.

The guerrillas may just fade. If so, they won't be gone far and shall do all they can to make rebuilding impossible, I fear. The pot stirring in SWAT sufficient to prevent rehab means refugees elsewhere stewing over the mess.

The militants, therefore, don't have to WIN to win. Like Afghanistan, staying in the game is victory for them.

 

[Hellfire]

Comparing the US vs. Pakistan is wrong in many ways. First of all, Pakistani troops are right in the middle of Swat. There are smaller formations based in and around many towns of Swat. So we are not sitting outside and conducting an air/artillery campaign only. The primary reason that PA has lost quite a few men is because we are putting our troops in the middle of the population. Most of the casualties are being taken when convoys are on the move inside of these areas and as a result you also hear about civilians getting caught in these attacks. So our approach is very much different from that remote sort of an approach which you are attributing to us.


There is a very big difference in the two because of the vast expanse of land and the very mountainous terrain in both of the locations inside of Pakistan.


Ok even if the terrain is similar, what types of targets are you going after there? Certainly nothing bigger than a dozen or two militants hiding in a particular locations mostly armed with AKs and RPGs. These guys are using 12.7mm deployed in well dug out positions (from what has been seen, their dug into the ground positions run across for extended distances) and also some AAA which they are using in direct fire mode. Try sending up infantry against such defences. The magnitude of resistance here is up by quite a few notches compared to what you folks have ever encountered in Kashmir. You have to grant that.


Also you are not the first Indian who has pointed this issue of why PA is using tanks and air support as if IA would not have. They did not in Kashmir because the terrain did not allow them to do so.



Again that was either because the terrain did not allow or the opposition was not of the type which required employment of anything greater than Carl Gustavs. In FATA/Swat, these tribals fight each other with weaponry that exceeds calibers of anything that your troops have come across in Kashmir. I can think of a few other campaigns that may be similar to what we are having to face in FATA and SWAT before I consider IA ops in Kashmir.



But why is the assumption being made that more troops are not going in? We did the same in Loi Sam. Attack helis went in first, followed by troops and armour. Eventually it was the troops on the ground who had to fight from village to village to regain the ground and they did it successfully.

Armour is being employed because unlike most remote areas in FATA, Swat affords decent roads and terrain over which tanks can traverse and provide support to troops on the move. Most of the towns etc. that have been taken over by militants allow 4x4 transport and this is the preferred method of movement for these elements thus armour employment does not pose as big a challenge.

Your contentions are rational enough. I have no queries about the tactical soundness of the approach in linear fields at all.

But the points which really have rendered me confused are:



While I cannot deny that there may well be sympathy for the Taliban in the minds of some, the difference here is that the vast majority of the population in Swat wants to see this issue resolved over a shorter period of time than have a long campaign which keeps them away from their homes. For Pakistan this is picking between a bad situation and a worse one from the standpoint of the need to conduct these operations while also being mindful of how such operations may come across to many civilians in the area. I am sure the issue of excessive firepower and its impact on the populace is not lost on the local commanders.




As I said, claiming that none of the above will happen would be unrealistic, however given how the operations in Loi Sam were handled and how the population has been allowed to rehabilitate after consolidating control over that area gives an indication that people of Swat have considerable problems with having to live under the yolk of Taliban and would prefer rebuilding and rehabilitation once the Taliban are pushed back. The costs of re-construction will remain, however at this point the operation will go in hot and heavy and may eventually slow down keeping in mind the loss of life and property to the civilians.



They will not shift their focus post this round, they already do that and have been doing it all the time. Its Taliban by night and Pashtun by day unfortunately and this is something that we are mindful of. as such I, for one, am under no disillusion that the Taliban can be defeated completely this way or eliminated. They cannot. At best, their control in Swat can be negated and I believe this is the success criteria for the Army. They will fall back to FATA after being pushed back.





While definitely worthwhile to look into, I believe the threat you faced was of a different type and could be compared to what we have seen in Balochistan potentially. I guess we will have to see how these operations proceed.

Points and counterpoints will progressively go on

I agree to quite a lot of your contentions but disagree on few more. So shall let it rest at this point as its redundant to keep dwelling into same points repeatedly.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[All-Green]

"I perceive that once they are broken they will come down to 10-20 man teams doing hit and run but for now it is round one and TTP would try to take on PA in conventional warfare..."

I wonder, too. First things first, though, while clearly having an eye to the post-battle reconstruction and rehabilitation. Somebody in your government needs to model and begin forming teams to go in with the army and make assessments.

The guerrillas may just fade. If so, they won't be gone far and shall do all they can to make rebuilding impossible, I fear. The pot stirring in SWAT sufficient to prevent rehab means refugees elsewhere stewing over the mess.

The militants, therefore, don't have to WIN to win. Like Afghanistan, staying in the game is victory for them.

Any knowledge of real time US Satellite and day/night surveillance assistance in this operation?
It can be a big help for PA.

 

[Hellfire]

S-2

Ah My Nemesis!!!

Was waiting for you to snap me into two .......! Afterall am transgressing into your territory (and I have respect for this guy certainly)

suggested read:

"The Indian Doctrine for Sub-Conventional Operations: Reflections from a U.S. Counterinsurgency Perspective" by Fidler David

Analyse that please I request before you go hunting now



"I can quote US policy in Afghanistan which relies in similar terms as PA on air/armor/arty assets. And you can see what I am drawing your attention to."

correction. which relied. my thoughts running faster than my typing speed. you can not challenge that initial approach towards Afghanistan had been flawed always

"US has made the same fundamental mistake in the first place by relying on support weapons to cover up for smaller number of pers inserted into area of operations..."

This is a gross generalization that's unsupported and contains a straw-man. You assume that large numbers of personnel are the answer ad absolutum.

It was a contention made even by Lt. General. (Retired) David W Barno, Commander Combined Forces Command, Afghanistan, October 2003 - May 2005.

Lieutenant General David W. Barno, U.S. Army, Retired Theviewsexpressedinthisarticlearethoseoftheauthoranddonotreflecttheoffi-

Please go through this extract and necessarily analyse it.


Ain't so. There are very recent battlefields that will chew the finest troops to hamburger in the space of minutes. Absent hardware, the more troops you bring to the fight, the more who'll die.

Ok I agree to that. But rationalisation of approach has to be done. US CI doctrine is deficient on rational approach needed to address issues pertaining to domestic issues. As such, there is no comprehensive exposure to US troops/command structure to any internal insurgency since confederacy in 19th century. your own COIN Doctrine (released in 2006 at the same time as Indian CI Ops Doctrine) highlights this. The work by Fidler, although as usual opinionated against any country which is not US, is quite a good read.

Sorry. Better be ready to use what's in your bag. Any light infantryman will tell you that his bestest buddy is the F.O., CAS, and tank-fire when he can get it.

In conventional scenario - yes. In linear battlefield, yes. In a non-linear domestic theater, you are digging your own grave!

You must think these guys are fighting a "police action" or else you just don't face sh!t in Kashmir any longer.

IA doctrine is not light approach, but we have stressed upon BSWs for close support rather than air/arty/armour assets. Its a fruitification of over 5 decades of experience in CI grid in own territories and over 2 decades in J&K. As such. the evolution of tactics to deal with militants in own area is very pertinent and a useful buoy for the PA to analyse. The proportion of force employed to the gains made have to be weighed in at each point.

You move an infantry company in Helmand or the Korengal valley without air, artillery, or resupply, you will die just as you absolutely should upon the unforgiving shoulders of the gods of war.

And you move your troops in the forests overlooking pehelgam (a mountainous and forested area with visibility down to 2 feet tops) you loose similarly. So is the case with area adjoining myanmar border in east. have been in that area and i do appreciate these facts, but you have to look at the local conditions and improvise your approach in accordance with the political directive given which is formulated based upon the fact that its your territory and your people in the region. You are contending with two aspects in FATA - CI operations with mountainous terrain (+/- High Altitude). We contend with three - CI + Mountain + Jungle +/- (fourth) High Altitude

 

[Hellfire]

Lot of gibberish from you on that artillery spat.

Metro flies every two hours or as conditions dictate. Updating that data in an FDC is a snap. Digital burst right into the AFATDS computer. Good muzzle velocity data from the guns and all other non-standard conditions accounted, first round fire-for-effect.

That's the standard. No registration unless absolutely essential. It shouldn't be so long as metro flies and communicates.

Radar operates fine in the mountains with good recon. Not what they can see but where they can go and be secured.

Reverse slopes are nothing for radar nor eyeballs. Nor engaging targets. High angle fire with a gunner's quadrant and you can be deadly accurate with HE/PD-even with dense contour lines/slope.

are we referring to US army ops now? IMO it was PA which we were talking about.

and you have given your inputs in linear battlefields. please revert to non-linear and operating under the two conditions which our pakistani friends have repeatedly stressed:

1. need to not appear as US proxies
2. to keep economic sustainability in mind while launching the ops. and that includes costs in terms of displacement, human catastrophe, reconstruction, rehabilitation and sustained costs which shall be incurred once the Talibs revert to hit and run mode and blend in with local population to carry on strikes within and outside FATA.

your approach, in any domestic insurgency, can not be heavy handed. What you have contended holds true for US army, they control the main cities and bases, hold few features along crossings on border with Pakistan, but do NOT have the adequate number of troops in afghanistan to dominate the area. As such, they have to rely on overwhelming force to support the troops and reduce own casualties thus increasing the probability of collateral damage and civillian casualties.

A great example of such lunatical approach:


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/world/asia/08afghan.html?hp

imagine something like this happening with PA

 

[Hellfire]

"I perceive that once they are broken they will come down to 10-20 man teams doing hit and run but for now it is round one and TTP would try to take on PA in conventional warfare..."

I wonder, too. First things first, though, while clearly having an eye to the post-battle reconstruction and rehabilitation. Somebody in your government needs to model and begin forming teams to go in with the army and make assessments.

The guerrillas may just fade. If so, they won't be gone far and shall do all they can to make rebuilding impossible, I fear. The pot stirring in SWAT sufficient to prevent rehab means refugees elsewhere stewing over the mess.

The militants, therefore, don't have to WIN to win. Like Afghanistan, staying in the game is victory for them.

...the gunner boasted of his balls,
while the infantryman stood silently
with victory at his feet!!!!

ah sir I agree with you here thoroughly. That is why said analyse the implications of approach. and please do try to understand the difference between foreign insurgency and domestic.

 

[Hellfire]

I have to agree with Blain2 and S-2 here

The TTP and their supporters are on a whole different scale than the small forest warfare conducted by Kashmiri Separatists.
TTP has lots of battalions and plenty of ammunition including quad AA guns and many multipurpose weapons...the trenches and defensive network encountered in Bajaur operation leaves no doubt about the manpower, resources and stiff resistance offered by such a group to any infantry...even elite formations
Joint operations are the way to go here and Artillery, Air force and tanks shall make all the difference between victory and defeat.

We have to see that over the years TTP has come to believe that they can hold territory in face of PA...this belief and this aura of invincibility has been reinforced by the peace deal...now i hated how these goons rubbed it in our faces but it may come to pass that their arrogance actually becomes their downfall...

I perceive that once they are broken they will come down to 10-20 man teams doing hit and run but for now it is round one and TTP would try to take on PA in conventional warfare...

Many of us know just how serious the PA is this time in dealing a crippling blow...it was funny to see some people commenting on how the pictures are not real war pictures etc., i did not reply because actions always speak louder than words and we know what is happening...PA is deploying for all out war and not some small CI operation...I am sure TTP is dug in for War as well.

FC is really being improved for CI operations and we shall see the hammer in the form of Army and the Anvil which shall be the FC when the TTP runs back to Tribal areas.

Kiyani has appointed one of his best generals as commander FC and i am sure we shall see the difference in just a couple of years, FC is evolving into a much more effective force and TTP actions against the FC actually help build anti TTP sentiments in the tribals since FC are their brethren...this is the only way to ensure that tribal areas become hostile to TTP and do not let these hornets nest in Pakistan!

All Green

Wait for next few days, we have seen it happen in Kashmir (initially they too held towns and area around Sopore), we saw it in Afghanistan (the Talibs were routed in conventional set up INSPITE of the numbers they had) , now we are seeing initial gains by PA which is unwilling to put in adequate number of troops. The change in tactics by Talibs will occur, and then your heavy handed approach will come back to haunt you as you would have worked against the very principles you had claimed were sacrosanct for you.

 

[All-Green]

All Green

Wait for next few days, we have seen it happen in Kashmir (initially they too held towns and area around Sopore), we saw it in Afghanistan (the Talibs were routed in conventional set up INSPITE of the numbers they had) , now we are seeing initial gains by PA which is unwilling to put in adequate number of troops. The change in tactics by Talibs will occur, and then your heavy handed approach will come back to haunt you as you would have worked against the very principles you had claimed were sacrosanct for you.

PA is putting much more numbers than you are aware of...
You see they have been strengthening FC to be strong enough to act as the anvil...you will see in the coming days what commitment PA has actually made...Now we all know that no action can have 100% guarantee of success but this is what you all have been asking Pakistan to do...to take serious action
PA is doing exactly so...the numbers and weapons caches of TTP dictate the use of this doctrine though i am sure the special forces within FC etc. were being formed to deal with post Army Hammering scenario...This is Phase1

time to show us some love man...give some positive messages to make us relax on the eastern border...i am sure now India should realize that we are indeed serious enough to merit some show of mutual respect and understanding from India...

 

[ajpirzada]

man u army guys talk as if u plan to write a book..... too long posts
i think i have got my answer of y army is using artillery and armour and i think hellfire is rit in sayin that we will need a gud number of troops to hold the territory after we make these talibans run away.

 

[ejaz007]

Sufi’s son killed in Dir

ISLAMABAD: The security forces on Thursday killed a son of Swat cleric Sufi Muhammad in a clash with the Taliban in Lower Dir, the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said in a statement. During an exchange of fire in Lower Dir, 10 Taliban, including Kifayatullah – son of Sufi Muhammad – were killed, it said. It was not clear if he was the intended target. Tehreek-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi (TNSM) spokesman Amir Izzat Khan told Daily Times the 43-year-old was killed in helicopter gunship firing in Maidan area. Sufi Muhammad, the chief of the TNSM, in February signed a deal with the provincial government calling on the Taliban to disarm in exchange for the implementation of sharia law in Malakand division. But the deal fell apart after the Taliban refused to lay down weapons. “In an attempt to eliminate and flush out [Taliban] from the area, FC launched an attack in early morning today,” the ISPR said. “During exchange of fire, 10 [Taliban] were killed including Kifayatullah, son of Sufi Muhammad.” staff report

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[ajpirzada]

enjoy... these were killed by troops and not artillery so i guess we are using a gud number of troops

Lower Dir: 35 militants killed in forces operation

Updated : Friday May 8 , 2009 12:53:56 PM

LOWER DIR (Hanifullah): Security forces in an offensive in Maidan area killed 35 militants including their two commanders on Friday.

The forces started operation aginst the militants in the area in the morning with heavy weapons and killed 35 militants in the drive.

According to OneWorld correspondent all schools, colleges and offices have been closed in Lower Dir due to the forces operation in the region.

Lower Dir: 35 militants killed in forces operation,5/8/2009 3:20:44 PM

 

[Xeric]

Hell

i accentuate....

Enigma

I stress ....


1. dynamic and fluid nature of the engagement area

If a military force is so overwhelmed by 'dynamic and fluid' situation, then what difference remains between a 'trained' military and a bunch of rag tag militia?

Operations have to be fluid and complex, a platoon being attack by two platoons in a frontal fashion is something that we found in books. On ground things are drastically different and demanding. Had the case been that simple there was no need for selecting best men for the Armed Forces in indo-Pak scenario.

It is said that during a war the first casualty if the plan itself.

You expect a brigade to attack you but find a Division with lots of Armour, and then you sh!t in pants because you have to take immediate measure to conform wit this new threat and then you also complain about the situation being unexpected and fluid....guud military insight indeed!

You attack i defend, then i counter attack and you defend, and then the game over slide pops in and ask you have to put in a few more coins to start a new game, is something that dont happen on the ground and in reality. These things look guud in training schools where 2+2 is always 4.

Any Army is trained to take on new challenges and guud commanders had always prepared for the unforeseen and contingencies.

Complaining about a professional Army of being drawn back due to a fluid and dynamic situation (for which actually it had been trained for) is not a very dialectic approach, Mr Doc.

2. urban area with significant local populance in loc.

So what?

Are you thinking that villages are being pounded by tons of metal just like that?

Or are you obsessed by what the IA has been doing in Kashmir?

We have been facing more populace in Wana and Balochitsan, speaking frankly this one is simpler.

And utmost care is exercised to minimize the thing known as 'collateral damage', but this doesn't mean that we are going to send in the infantry without adequate fire support or without softening up and 'shaping the battlefield.'

1000m you have quoted is a bit of exaggeration. and even 2 meters deviation does play a havoc in a CI grid as it exponentially increases collateral damage/civillian casualty in a built up area.

You are absolutely correct, but i wonder why to always miss the phun part?

Anywaz, refer to my above reply on this.

We are not the US military who are firing the Laser Dazzler (and live ammo previously-in Iraq) on everyone moving 'thing' on the road with a fear that it might be a suicide bomber, but this actually screws every second car/vehicle and even the poor chap on the bicycle who after being temporarily blinded hit somebody or something.

its upto you to appreciate the fact.

i'll appreciate the fact but not the fiction.

as for the met data and computed fire solutions being utilised, mountains, IMO are still tricky to be able to be sufficiently accurate in your fire. the reason primarily is again the shifting nature of met conditions, wherein the latest data may be valid for a very short span of time.

Again you are right, but you again missed that this is not Siachen or snowline Kashmir. As for the shifting nature if met conditions we dont mind sending up another Radiosonde!

in addition the topography of the region invariably increases the dead space in any fire mission. its further compounded if the targets are on reverse slope as the line of sight is considerably reduced (your RADARs become useless in it).

Lollzz.. how else do you engage the dead grounds? With direct firing and line of sight weapons!!??

Yes there is nothing that can be done to the ground which is dead even to (high angle) artillery fire. Sorry you have to live with that. Or may we can send in some troops to do the job, after the surroundings have been cleared.

further, effectiveness in a mountainous terrain is found in utilisation of HE/DPICMs something which has effectiveness in a linear engagement but has tendency to increase the casualty rate amongst non-combatants manifolds.

Non-combatants in far flung mountains after the start of a full scale operation. You probably have mixed the militants with the civilians. i wonder what a 'non-combatant' is doing on a mountain peak when other like him has already fled the area.

And i heard unexploded DPICMs creating problems for own troops but not for the militants (whom you claim to be non-combatants), BTW, there is something known as self destruct munitions...

as for armor, you shall find that its PA who is employing armor for whatever reasons. my contention is on employment of adequate infantry assets with full complement of BSWs. RL has been found to be quite accurate for localised fire support as also the Bn Mortar Platoon.

Ya it is. What's the fuss about it?

Do you think the commanders on ground are so naive that have even forgotten the basic principles of employment of armour?

i think you need to come out from your barrack in Kashmir and visit your home once

IMO you are out fishing

Oh i love fishing, trout is my favorite

and I refuse to further take your bait.

Be my guest.

You know exactly what I mean ....

Why should i?

but being your enigmatic self as usual ........

Ever heard of something called a 'trademark'?

Chill, and try to leave the valleys of Kashmir out of Swat and Buner!