Operation Swift Retort by Alan Warnes

[jk007]

@Oscar is now @Socra I think?

Kinda tired of answering your questions so I will pose a few of my own.

1. Did the Russians sell the IAF a SU-30 MKI simulator?
2. Did the Russians sell the IAF any captive carry missiles or munitions?
3. Did the Russians sell the IAF any test rounds?
4. How many IAF Su-30 MKI pilots fire live missiles/munitions?
5. What do Su-30 pilots do while on training sorties? What is logged when they return?

I do not know answers to any of your questions.....I do not have the kind of knowledge you possess....there are few knowledgeable Indians here, who may be able to answer.......but I kind of got an idea why you think IAF are not better trained (you are entitled to your opinion)........thanks for your response......

Waiting for a more knowledgeable Indian to respond.
@Jaskier; @anathema @MirageBlue

 

[mingle]

Madam - Would you give any examples (or) similar to substantiate this statement?
Actually, I see that @Oscar's [I think he has some background in PAF] posts has more respect for IAF than your posts [I am referring to @Oscar's old posts]. I think you must be knowing something more than @Oscar.

There are very few knowledgeable people in this forum. Please give examples to substantiate your statements. Without any example, it is difficult for Indians to accept these statements.

My intention is not to troll....but all the statements saying "PAF is better trained/capable/able than IAF" at any given time are sort of disturbing to me. Similar reasons are given just before previous wars [please read Henry Kissinger's book about his discussions with Pak leadership]. PAF definitely has great and not so great pilots similar to IAF.



Is USA going to release AIM-120Ds?

AIM120D possible if we looking to upgrade F16 s or buying new one which is logical step farward

 

[anathema]

@Oscar is now @Socra I think?

Kinda tired of answering your questions so I will pose a few of my own.

1. Did the Russians sell the IAF a SU-30 MKI simulator?
2. Did the Russians sell the IAF any captive carry missiles or munitions?
3. Did the Russians sell the IAF any test rounds?
4. How many IAF Su-30 MKI pilots fire live missiles/munitions?
5. What do Su-30 pilots do while on training sorties? What is logged when they return?

Not sure about the background or context - but will try to answer


1. Did the Russians sell the IAF a SU-30 MKI simulator? Yes- I think 1st simulator was in 2011. Atleast thats what i saw.
2. Did the Russians sell the IAF any captive carry missiles or munitions? I have seen training missiles of different kinds on IAF fighters. Not aware if its electronically enabled or if it simulates the behavior of missiles. Information on this is very spotty.
3. Did the Russians sell the IAF any test rounds? Like i said i have seen training missiles.
4. How many IAF Su-30 MKI pilots fire live missiles/munitions? Every pilot that i have met or talked fires missiles/drops munitions - how many , when is subjective. Huskit and fighter pilot podcasts with IAF fighter pilots talked about pilots firing multiples of these missiles. No one will know the answer. Whats the purpose of this question ?
5. What do Su-30 pilots do while on training sorties? What is logged when they return? dont you think its a open ended qustion. They follow syllabus before becoming operational. After that ever sortie is an excercise geared towards achieving a particular objective. It can LFE's , Multi Ship, BFM's , etc. There are plety of IAF pilots on twitter who can answer this provided its not confidential.

My intention is not to troll....but all the statements saying "PAF is better trained/capable/able than IAF" at any given time are sort of disturbing to me. Similar reasons are given just before previous wars [please read Henry Kissinger's book about his discussions with Pak leadership]. PAF definitely has great and not so great pilots similar to IAF.

If you are looking to boost your self confidence by seeking out IAF superiority in this forum then you are clearly in a wrong place.

 

[dbc]

Not sure about the background or context - but will try to answer


1. Did the Russians sell the IAF a SU-30 MKI simulator? Yes- I think 1st simulator was in 2011. Atleast thats what i saw.
2. Did the Russians sell the IAF any captive carry missiles or munitions? I have seen training missiles of different kinds on IAF fighters. Not aware if its electronically enabled or if it simulates the behavior of missiles. Information on this is very spotty.
3. Did the Russians sell the IAF any test rounds? Like i said i have seen training missiles.
4. How many IAF Su-30 MKI pilots fire live missiles/munitions? Every pilot that i have met or talked fires missiles/drops munitions - how many , when is subjective. Huskit and fighter pilot podcasts with IAF fighter pilots talked about pilots firing multiples of these missiles. No one will know the answer. Whats the purpose of this question ?
5. What do Su-30 pilots do while on training sorties? What is logged when they return? dont you think its a open ended qustion. They follow syllabus before becoming operational. After that ever sortie is an excercise geared towards achieving a particular objective. It can LFE's , Multi Ship, BFM's , etc. There are plety of IAF pilots on twitter who can answer this provided its not confidential.

1. Five Su-30XXX simulators were purchased from Spetztekhnika but since the Indian Su-30's are heavily customized with French, Indian and Israeli sub systems the Russian SIM is a somewhat ineffective training aid.

2. Yes for AAMs and Brahmos, see below. But not enough to train its entire Su-30 MKI pilot population and it is not mandatory for pilots to generate any training sorties with any combination of captive carry rounds.

3/4. Live rounds are used sparingly for testing. A significant population have never SIM launched a missile Nor live fired at test drones, how many test drones have the IAF purchased?
5. No, squad training isn't standardized or based on a curriculum. It is dictated by the role of the squadron and defined by squad ops. Some do it well, others have a good time. Non specific to the IAF, but I have some interesting insights.

 

[anathema]

Interesting.

1. Five Su-30XXX simulators were purchased from Spetztekhnika but since the Indian Su-30's are heavily customized with French, Indian and Israeli sub systems the Russian SIM is a somewhat ineffective training aid.

Is this a opinon or a fact ? Your data point behind this assertion ? Source ?

2. Yes for AAMs and Brahmos, see below. But not enough to train its entire Su-30 MKI pilot population and it is not mandatory for pilots to generate any training sorties with any combination of captive carry rounds.

Again - can you provide articles for me to read ?

3/4. Live rounds are used sparingly for testing. A significant population have never SIM launched a missile Nor live fired at test drones, how many test drones have the IAF purchased?

Plenty of banshee and layshay drones to test - simulation is done electronically as well. With poor life of Russian AAM's - i think its around 100hours visa vi AMRAAMs (1000 Hrs) ; Russian AAM's tend to expire faster and lot of that gets used in testing. Till date i never met a pilot who hasnt done live testing - its a part of training before they become full ops qualified.

5. No, squad training isn't standardized or based on a curriculum. It is dictated by the role of the squadron and defined by squad ops. Some do it well, others have a good time. Non specific to the IAF, but I have some interesting insights.

Training till the pilots becomes full ops is standardized. There is a curriculum they follow ! Once in a squadron - pretty much they follow the broad objectives that are needed to achieve. This includes practicing on LFE, BFM's , OCA, DCA , etc. But i am interested - to know more. So please feel free to share !

 

[jk007]

I'll respond to Q6 which is kind of loaded with mini-Questions.
Lets recap. You've seen the images of your IAF personnel displaying a blown up Aim-120 (AMRAAM) at a News Conference. Now, could you explain how it ended up in India, after IAF matched the Serial Numbers to Pakistan by the US DoD? It must have hit [something]. By the way, in case you don't know, an Aim-120 doesn't blow up without hitting something.

@dbc - If you have time, please clear this for me. A point in post # 333 is bothering me [I am an Indian American]. If someone fires a AIM120-C5, and the missile misses the target and ran out of fuel, will it fall down intact without exploding? The missile must self destruct by exploding, correct? Else, whoever captures it has a chance to reverse engineer? I read somewhere that reaper and similar high-tech drones/weapons self-destruct if they happen to fall in enemy territory?

@Trailer23 - Please review this video between 3:25 and 3:40. That person claims he is a retired PA person, and says that 2 pilots are captured at Pak. It is Pak TV, correct? Any possible explanation? My intention is not to troll....

 

[dbc]

@dbc - If you have time, please clear this for me. A point in post # 333 is bothering me [I am an Indian American]. If someone fires a AIM120-C5, and the missile misses the target and ran out of fuel, will it fall down intact without exploding? The missile must self destruct by exploding, correct? Else, whoever captures it has a chance to reverse engineer? I read somewhere that reaper and similar high-tech drones/weapons self-destruct if they happen to fall in enemy territory?

@Trailer23 - Please review this video between 3:25 and 3:40. That person claims he is a retired PA person, and says that 2 pilots are captured at Pak. It is Pak TV, correct? Any possible explanation?

Yes it has a command destruct and self destruct capability, both occur in two stages beginning with warhead separation. This is done so we can reuse 80% of a test missile. Most of missile is made from COTS parts anyway so not really worried of ‘secrets’ being compromised.

Nice try though, clever bunny! The missile proudly displayed by the IAF did not self destruct.

 

[Trailer23]

@Trailer23 - Please review this video between 3:25 and 3:40. That person claims he is a retired PA person, and says that 2 pilots are captured at Pak. It is Pak TV, correct? Any possible explanation?

I have seen this vid when it first came out just like all the others.

Yes, in the heat of the moment people did claim that they saw two chutes come down. The other was the Drogue Chute of the MiG-21.

We've all been through this 'dosra pilot' over & over - with the same results.

We would love for any Independent Neutral Party to come & inspect the Serial Numbers of ALL our F-16's. We're open to that.

They are gonna find that we currently have 75. One less as everyone has seen the crash from last month.

Our argument is simple. We have all of Abhi's missiles present. So, what did he shoot the F-16 with? His Jedi mind-tricks?!!

Look, in the end, you're gonna believe what you want to believe & we're gonna continue to do the same. You'll end up making a movie 'bout it & glorify your Hero in Bollywood 'cause that is what you guys are good at.

And we'll continue to get better at what we do - prepare for Op. Swift Retort 2.0.

The difference between the both is rather clear. The Pakistani Public, The World, International Military Commentators have all sided with Pakistan's success that day.

On the flip side, India has failed to get any 'International' support, in fact there are those that have even questioned the Balakot Strikes on the 26th of Feb. in India, itself.

There is also the question being raised as to why Citizens, Journalist and Politicians were being branded Anti-National if they questioned/demanded proof of the Balakot Air Strikes.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...onal-farooq-abdullah/articleshow/68291841.cms

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...nal-congress-modi-baffling-1469378-2019-03-03

https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/modis-new-mantra-if-youre-not-with-me-youre-anti-national/

If it was merely a conversation of 26th vs. 27th of Feb - We'd win that conversation.

You guys claimed you bombed us in Balakot, but no evidence of success (to date). We Bombed you lot, and presented the evidence/footage too - and then some.

But I personally find claims over-rated. I mean, think about it - Narendra Modi claimed that he used a Digital Camera and the E-mail back in 1988.

Now..., that doesn't mean that we should start taking him seriously, do we.

 

[jk007]

Yes it has a command destruct and self destruct capability, both occur in two stages beginning with warhead separation. This is done so we can reuse 80% of a test missile. Most of missile is made from COTS parts anyway so not really worried of ‘secrets’ being compromised.

Nice try though, clever bunny! The missile proudly displayed by the IAF did not self destruct.

Actually, my intention is not to troll (if my previous post made you think I am trolling)....even if (*assume*) SU-30 is shot down, part of me is still ok (nothing changed strategically), as that would put Indian "ministry of defence" in urgency mode [as they are peacefully sleeping from 2004-2014].....just imagine, the previous govt took 10 years, and still could not finalize Rafale deal (such things never happen in many other countries), and they left lot of mess (indecision) in Indian defence department......If PAF opened the eyes of IAF (if IAF / ministry of defence are sleeping), I am ok with it. I want India to purchase dozens (200+) of Rafale [as I said - India may not buy American weapons because France / Russia guarantee a UN veto to protect India's interests, which US can not].

Also, projected requirement for IAF is 42 squadrons, but they have about 30 squadrons now....part of me thinks that ,if PAF shot down a SU-30, Ministry of defence will get alerted and will release purse strings to fill the gaps with Rafale......

The missile proudly displayed by the IAF did not self destruct.

[if you have time] any reasons why you think the missile did not self destruct?

 

[Trailer23]

I do not know answers to any of your questions.....I do not have the kind of knowledge you possess.
Waiting for a more knowledgeable Indian to respond.

Speaking of 'Claims'. You initially claimed that you did not possess the kind of knowledge to @dbc and that you were waiting for a more knowledgeable Indian Member to respond.

However, the question you raised in regard to the Aim-120 (AMRAAM) does raise a curiosity if you're really as naive as it may appear. There are some really smart Indian Members here on PDF - let there be no doubt in regard to their knowledge. Them being patriotic to India is what makes this forum interesting for us (too).

But, in over a year - not a single Indian Member raised that particular Question of the AMRAAM.

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and call, that you know more than you claim.

 

[jk007]

Look, in the end, you're gonna believe what you want to believe & we're gonna continue to do the same. You'll end up making a movie 'bout it & glorify your Hero in Bollywood 'cause that is what you guys are good at.

And we'll continue to get better at what we do - prepare for Op. Swift Retort 2.0.

The difference between the both is rather clear. The Pakistani Public, The World, International Military Commentators have all sided with Pakistan's success that day.

On the flip side, India has failed to get any 'International' support, in fact there are those that have even questioned the Balakot Strikes on the 26th of Feb. in India, itself.

There is also the question being raised as to why Citizens, Journalist and Politicians were being branded Anti-National if they questioned/demanded proof of the Balakot Air Strikes.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...onal-farooq-abdullah/articleshow/68291841.cms

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...nal-congress-modi-baffling-1469378-2019-03-03

https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/modis-new-mantra-if-youre-not-with-me-youre-anti-national/

If it was merely a conversation of 26th vs. 27th of Feb - We'd win that conversation.

You guys claimed you bombed us in Balakot, but no evidence of success (to date). We Bombed you lot, and presented the evidence/footage too - and then some.

But I personally find claims over-rated. I mean, think about it - Narendra Modi claimed that he used a Digital Camera and the E-mail back in 1988.

Now..., that doesn't mean that we should start taking him seriously, do we.

[If I may]
(a) you guys are not understanding Narendra Modi.....Modi is a genious......Modi clearly knows that elections (in India) can not be won by wars (contrary to what you think - no politician can win an election in India purely on war reasons)........Modi knows that economy is the key (which is why he won in Y2014 + not being corrupt reasons).......I believe that Modi does not want the escalation to go out of hand on feb-26 / feb-27 (I believe he is careful there).......Modi's intention is to calm down the border without escalating. There is no point in fighting, when we are happy with what we have. Indians are perfectly Ok with status quo.
(b) I mentioned in my previous posts, why normal Indians (like me) are happy....even if SU-30 is lost, part of me is ok with it.....as this will give reasons to ministry of defence to take very hard decisions.....but I know Modi will not spend unnecessary money in defence, and neglect infrastructure / economy.
(c) However, particularly after Mumbai attacks, Indians are really really really looking for a "tough" leader(vis-a-vis continuous terror attacks) and Modi filled that role.
(d) Modi tried to make peace with Nawaz Sharif, but did not work out....(I think) Modi does not trust Imran Khan (personally, I became a fan of Imran Khan after reading his books - particularly the first 2 books. But I do not think he is a good politician).
my 2 cents.....I am not infallible.....

Speaking of 'Claims'. You initially claimed that you did not possess the kind of knowledge to @dbc and that you were waiting for a more knowledgeable Indian Member to respond.

However, the question you raised in regard to the Aim-120 (AMRAAM) does raise a curiosity if you're really as naive as it may appear. There are some really smart Indian Members here on PDF - let there be no doubt in regard to their knowledge. Them being patriotic to India is what makes this forum interesting for us (too).

But, in over a year - not a single Indian Member raised that particular Question of the AMRAAM.

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and call, that you know more than you claim.

I am reading PDF + BR for very long (stopped BR for the past 6 months or so).....I know F-16; SU-30 etc etc.....but don't know in such detail....in the past week, I read responses in PDF (I learnt a lot from @anathema responses + @MirageBlue; @Jaskier responses in other forums); watched videos, and my knowledge improved.......Also, I am reading all english Pak newspapers for the past 10 years....and know much about Pak than regular Indian folks.....but definitely, my intention is not to troll.....

 

[Trailer23]

@jk007
Begging your pardon, but I stopped reading after..., "Modi is a genius".

Look, he's your Leader - not mine (Thank God). So you are welcome to worship him like 'A' God.

The narrative among the Pakistani Community is quite the opposite.

Good luck to you - on PDF.

 

[StormBreaker]

@jk007
Begging your pardon, but I stopped reading after..., "Modi is a genius".

Look, he's your Leader - not mine (Thank God). So you are welcome to worship him like 'A' God.

The narrative among the Pakistani Community is quite the opposite.

Good luck to you - on PDF.

Did you just turn senior member ? Seems quite unusual or did I observe it now ?

 

[valkyr_96]

......
[USER=139907]@Trailer23 - Please review this video between 3:25 and 3:40. That person claims he is a retired PA person, and says that 2 pilots are captured at Pak. It is Pak TV, correct? Any possible explanation? My intention is not to troll....

[/USER]

The two parachute thing has already been solved here you need to check the threads. Both the chutes were Abhinandan's. I think it was dbc's post as well.

 

[Danish Moazzam]

The Question you should be asking is, why did one minister immediately announce 300 Terrorist killed?
This was the chest thumping confidence boosting message that was to be sent forward to the masses so as to support the claim.
Second statement was we targeted the terrorist training site but deflected to show that we have the potential to strike inside Pakistan. (this was for the cover-up of failure of SPICE and what ever curry powder used that night)
Third statement was we did not want any civilian casualties.
Next comes we threatened Pakistan to hand over Abhi, and Pakistan obliged see how mighty we are. We only (ONLY) lost a ageing crappy mig (That incidentally makes the bulk of your airforce, meaning the major portion is not worth mentioning)
SU-30 was busy dodging as it was out numbered, Mirage had multiple diarrhea sessions so they had to make an exit.
PHALCONS with touted 500+KM range and ability to see everything was in AIR ( AS per the colorful MS PAINT Presentation that was shared) and still could not direct the aircraft to launch a single weapon nor alert the ground station of the activity, heck it did not even help them to identify the SAR helicopter

The Most Important thing we gave you your HERO Abhi back and it has been a year since. Care to get an interview of him explaining to the world how he managed to shoot an F-16 without firing a single AAM?

Oh wait India has had a Fratricide, lets say Pakistan also did the same shot their F-16, and since Abhi was the only one (Blind Enough) to go into the fight lets credit him the kill and make him a hero.

Next Day pull off a piece of AMRAAM with serial number and show to the world that we were attacked using Daddys F-16 and Daddy told us that it will not be used we were cheated. We were supposed to win the round. They have been lying about it being recovered after the piece fell in a nearby village on a local injuring him. How convenient the only piece recovered had all the marking and serial numbers. and that to to land and recovered and displayed all in less than a day. What a feat

Even that fired back as they showed a detonated Missile that means the seeker made a mark.

After all the dilly dally they want to know where the second Pilot is.. DAH.