Operation Swift Retort by Alan Warnes

[jk007]

I really, really - truly want to meet the Indian Member on PDF who said anything about a PAF F-16 being shot down by Pakistan's own Military (ARMY/Air Force). That hasn't been explored or exploited by India. I doubt they'd even be dumb enough to even consider that after presenting a Medal to WC Abhinandan. THAT right there would be a clear indication that he didn't do jack shit. And a Pakistani SAM hitting its own F-16 would've gotten far more coverage than India shooting down its own Mi-17. What do you think?

Trailer23 - I am not being dis-respectful to you. But you got a chance to read *all* threads / posts after Feb-27. In one of those threads, one indian guy (don't remember the name, but it was very clear he was very knowledgeable and seem to be "near" to IAF thinking) said that IAF believes that 50% chance F-16 could have been hit by Pak's own SAM. Oscar is part of those discussions. If you know Oscar, please ask him (or maybe, any Pak PDF member who is active remembers those threads / discussions).....it was in those discussions, Oscar wondered if PAF has advertised the deficiencies of IAF......It was very knowledgeable and interesting discussion for very few days......unfortunately, I do not remember the thread (or) the name of that person. He said Abhinandan is given the medal, as there is no one near by.

(Correct me if I am wrong but) I do not think Abhinandan himself claimed 100% to have fired the missile. If I remember correct - he said he locked and was about the fire, and was hit (Please correct me if I am wrong).

He had to be awarded. Think about it. A day earlier Arnab Goswami & other Channels were celebrating about teaching Pakistan a lesson & killing 350 Terrorist by flying into Pakistan.

A lil' over 24hrs later the mood changes. We're talking about a population of over a Billion people who hate Pakistan more than anything - including their respective Mother-in-Laws.

Wrong understanding. All of India does not hate Pakistan. However, the acts of Pakistan (particularly Mumbai attacks) changed a lot in this aspect. Mumbai attacks is a water-shed event (my opinion). I will leave it at that. I do not want to deviate the topic.

Not sure if you know who Christine Fair is... Google her. She hates Pakistan more than Indians. If you want, i'll link a video for you to get a clearer picture.

I know about her. Read her articles, and even watched the video you are referring to. If IAF is incompetent and PAF advertised it, it is good for us in the long run. It is better to know about such things before any big event happens. My intention in my posts is to understand - why many in PDF thinks IAF is incompetent.

The other points aren't valid:
- about Gauri Lankesh 'cause all videos on YouTube by NDTV, The Quint and others indicate what I claimed. But hey, its not related to Pakistan - so I shit care.

Incorrect understanding. I am not being dis-respectful to you. There are many of my own childhood friends (particularly those who economic interests are hurt by actions like de-monetisation etc) who believe that Modi is greatest evil and he has great capacity to suppress every institution etc (not true). It is so unfortunate that I have many friends whose economic interests are hurt by Modi. They do not believe anything I say to the contrary. You are from other side of the border. I can't blame you. I am talking about Hindu friends, not muslims. Modi is the most abused leader in contemporary Indian history. It is sequence of events that aligned & miracle, which bought him to where he is now.

 

[truthfollower]

I hope this was first and last time PAF deliberately missed targets on ground.

 

[Falcon26]

Recently watched the interview of Sqn Ldr Minty Aggarwal. She was all smiles and fluent when asked about her role as a ground controller in the conflict. But when asked about Abhinandan shooting down F-16, her face expressions change and she starts to pause in her response and get's cautious. We human beings, our body parts give it away when we are lying.

Can you share the video?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Trailer23 - I am not being dis-respectful to you. But you got a chance to read *all* threads / posts after Feb-27. In one of those threads, one indian guy (don't remember the name, but it was very clear he was very knowledgeable and seem to be "near" to IAF thinking) said that IAF believes that 50% chance F-16 could have been hit by Pak's own SAM. Oscar is part of those discussions. If you know Oscar, please ask him (or maybe, any Pak PDF member who is active remembers those threads / discussions).....it was in those discussions, Oscar wondered if PAF has advertised the deficiencies of IAF......It was very knowledgeable and interesting discussion for very few days......unfortunately, I do not remember the thread (or) the name of that person. He said Abhinandan is given the medal, as there is no one near by.

(Correct me if I am wrong but) I do not think Abhinandan himself claimed 100% to have fired the missile. If I remember correct - he said he locked and was about the fire, and was hit (Please correct me if I am wrong).


Wrong understanding. All of India does not hate Pakistan. However, the acts of Pakistan (particularly Mumbai attacks) changed a lot in this aspect. Mumbai attacks is a water-shed event (my opinion). I will leave it at that. I do not want to deviate the topic.


I know about her. Read her articles, and even watched the video you are referring to. If IAF is incompetent and PAF advertised it, it is good for us in the long run. It is better to know about such things before any big event happens. My intention in my posts is to understand - why many in PDF thinks IAF is incompetent.

Incorrect understanding. I am not being dis-respectful to you. There are many of my own childhood friends (particularly those who economic interests are hurt by actions like de-monetisation etc) who believe that Modi is greatest evil and he has great capacity to suppress every institution etc (not true). It is so unfortunate that I have many friends whose economic interests are hurt by Modi. They do not believe anything I say to the contrary. You are from other side of the border. I can't blame you. I am talking about Hindu friends, not muslims. Modi is the most abused leader in contemporary Indian history. It is sequence of events that aligned & miracle, which bought him to where he is now.

another troll in making

 

[PradoTLC]

I've not come across any international media or neutral source that confirmed or even mentions IAF losing Su-30MKI on 27feb.

PAF and the pilot who shot down the Su-30 made it's claim infront of the entire defence attache of foreign countries (India was invited but did not show up) ....

no body is disputing our claim... every one is how ever disputing yours....


like I said please keep believing you shot a F-16 and Su-30 was not shot down as we certainly don't want you to learn any lessons.

IAF ran away ? If IAF ran way did PAF stay after launching their weapons on intended targets?

Yes... you didn't engage our fighter weep planes... understandable as Su-30 was being shot down like flies.

But, believe me & Trust me, majority of Indians do not want a war with Pak (or any other nation). Our problems are interna

Really?....

99% of Indians were jumping like monkeys here in Dubai and India when you hit "terrorist" camps killing 300+ terrorists?.. you want me spam the thread of all the hate and war mongering to remind you?....

Only when PAF hit back did we see a U turn in your attitude....

so spare the goodie Indian non sense. ... not clear?... watch this skid to understand your character.

Also an IAF counter strike would have caused war which both countries didn't want, that why earlier on the day PAF launched weapons on isolated locations that would avoid casualtie

non sense. India wanted war, they refuse every single peace overtures from PM IK.. it is only when PAF forced your hand did India lobby behind the scenes with western powers did tensions die down. All the western media gives IK for defusing the issue not India. Even Christine Fair makes this obersevation .

good reply...but do you think moneys can be good learners?

Interesting about teaching monkeys... it reminds me of this...

 

[jk007]

PAF and the pilot who shot down the Su-30 made it's claim infront of the entire defence attache of foreign countries (India was invited but did not show up) ....

no body is disputing our claim... every one is how ever disputing yours....


like I said please keep believing you shot a F-16 and Su-30 was not shot down as we certainly don't want you to learn any lessons.

DBC -
a) In this video (post#341), PAF officer claims that they locked 9 Indian aircraft, but received clearance to fire at only 2 aircraft, which they did successfully shot down. Please tell me - Is it possible to get a lock on 9 aircraft? If yes, and they did lock 9 aircraft, they had a 100% chance of shooting down all 9? In another video, the then IAF chief said that after PAF received their latest BVR missiles, IAF has implemented counter measures without which the 4 or 5 aircraft would have been lost.
b) Another unrelated question - Is big aircraft like SU-30 a liability in war owing to big radar cross-section? USA is still procuring F-15 which is big too?

PS: Although I am following this forum for very long, there are many questions in my mind w.r.t air-warfare. I don't know where to get answers from.

 

[adelphi]

Can you share the video?

 

[PradoTLC]

In this video (post#341), PAF officer claims that they locked 9 Indian aircraft, but received clearance to fire at only 2 aircraft, which they did successfully shot down. Please tell me - Is it possible to get a lock on 9 aircraft? If yes, and they did lock 9 aircraft, they had a 100% chance of shooting down all 9? In another video, the then IAF chief said that after PAF received their latest BVR missiles, IAF has implemented counter measures without which the 4 or 5 aircraft would have been lost.

You do realise there were other planes in the air?.... as Gen Gafoor stated our entire airforce was airborne.... and F-16s have ability track and shoot mulitle targets simultaneously... these are not Vietnam F-4 phantoms we were flying...


could they have shot down the remaining 9?... my assessment.

Yes

PAF had effectively deafed and blinded the IAF planes.. thus effectively they were just sitting ducks, the same concept Israeli airforce and USAF used again their enemies. (surprise you didn't learn)

PAF even when it didn't have BVR trained it's pilots for anti BVR tactics, this was reported by AFM in the 1990s.. So PAF clearly knew what it was doing. IAF if it was effectively trained could have hit back but it didn't.

but no interview of Abilundon on how he shot down PAF's elite vipers..... sad

 

[Ultima Thule]

DBC -
a) In this video (post#341), PAF officer claims that they locked 9 Indian aircraft, but received clearance to fire at only 2 aircraft, which they did successfully shot down. Please tell me - Is it possible to get a lock on 9 aircraft? If yes, and they did lock 9 aircraft, they had a 100% chance of shooting down all 9? In another video, the then IAF chief said that after PAF received their latest BVR missiles, IAF has implemented counter measures without which the 4 or 5 aircraft would have been lost.
b) Another unrelated question - Is big aircraft like SU-30 a liability in war owing to big radar cross-section? USA is still procuring F-15 which is big too?

PS: Although I am following this forum for very long, there are many questions in my mind w.r.t air-warfare. I don't know where to get answers from.

only PAF knows that Pakistan had been fired at them (its classified information) no one knows, and get clearance to fire at 2 targets , we got not a latest (AIM-120D with range of 160 km) but older version of AIM-120 C5 with range of 105 km but IAF had a basic R-77 with range of 80 Km, that's why your MKI stay away from LOC and as per PAF AMRRAM fire at extreme range (near to 105 km range) normally BVR not fired at Max range
and as for you queries about big RCS (radar cross section) of MKI big jets means its have lot of internal ECM/EW/ES systems on it that advantages heavy weight fighter jets that's they are capable of carrying lots of electronic gears for defense as compare to medium of light weight fighter jets

 

[PradoTLC]

.
b) Another unrelated question - Is big aircraft like SU-30 a liability in war owing to big radar cross-section? USA is still procuring F-15 which is big too

no.... Su-30 is heavy fighter (with all its advantages and disadvantages) and is as effective as the pilots using them. USAF has the issue with F-4 v Mig 17 with poor kill ratio a huge embarrassment for US. Yet the Americans diagnosed the problem, it wasn't the F-4 plane but tactics on deployment on weapon systems. They changed tactics retrained their pilots established schools like Topgun and the result was impressive,

Indians on the other hand are incredibly egoist, and will not take responsibility for their failure, they prefer to lie, make excuses and not learn from mistakes. Made worse because they think Pakistan is inferior and they are brain washed to think every facet of Pakistan is.

Like PAF pilots stated accurately IAF didn't understand their strengths and weakness via PAF.

 

[jk007]

You do realise there were other planes in the air?.... as Gen Gafoor stated our entire airforce was airborne.... and F-16s have ability track and shoot mulitle targets simultaneously... these are not Vietnam F-4 phantoms we were flying...


could they have shot down the remaining 9?... my assessment.

Yes

PAF had effectively deafed and blinded the IAF planes.. thus effectively they were just sitting ducks, the same concept Israeli airforce and USAF used again their enemies. (surprise you didn't learn)

PAF even when it didn't have BVR trained it's pilots for anti BVR tactics, this was reported by AFM in the 1990s.. So PAF clearly knew what it was doing. IAF if it was effectively trained could have hit back but it didn't.




but no interview of Abilundon on how he shot down PAF's elite vipers..... sad

DBC - Please respond with your personal opinion on Feb-27 skirmish. I am really interested in the following:
a) Did PAF really do something very unusually skillful on that day? Or is it more a case of first come and ready with great numerical advantage? Remember IAF is in reactive mode not pro-active mode.
b) If PAF did really do something unusual, is it repeatable next time?
c) In the next skirmish, if roles of IAF & PAF are reversed (i.e. IAF gets numerical advantage) then what?
d) In air-warfare, overwhelming numerical superiority on that day gives overwhelming advantage?
e) If you are the commander in command for IAF on feb-27 and surprised (credit to PAF for surprise), what would you have done any different?

Please help me understand.

I believe that, if there is equal moral reason and motivation, war is a essentially wastage of resources between sides. Whichever side has more resources to throw / waste will inevitably win. No organization / air-force can be forever inefficient.

Indians on the other hand are incredibly egoist, and will not take responsibility for their failure, they prefer to lie, make excuses and not learn from mistakes. Made worse because they think Pakistan is inferior and they are brain washed to think every facet of Pakistan is.

I know for sure that this is not true.

Like PAF pilots stated accurately IAF didn't understand their strengths and weakness via PAF.

[/QUOTE]
I can't *imagine* this can be True.

 

[diligence]

dbc - I have been reading this forum for very long, and read your posts for a long time.....I believe you are a knowledgeable member.....
Question#1) Many pakistanis believe that they shamed IAF (& India) by shooting down an aircraft. I (being an Indian) do not feel any shame at all. Loosing a single aircraft does not say much about the competence or incomptence of an airforce that was built for 70 years. On the contrary, I am proud that finally India has sent combat aircraft across the border.

You are not the first Indian repeating your shamelessness. If, for a second, we forget about the loss of Indian SU-30 on 27/2, Bison was not the only loss that IAF suffered on that day. It was a complete dominance by the PAF over the aerospace of Indian occupied J&K that makes that day a historic one. Yes, you are proud that India attacked our sovereignty on 26/2. But you're conveniently hiding your bloody burned *** of 27/2. If one sits on a red hot pan just for being a macho, then hiding one's burned *** doesn't help him much no matter how much shameless of an idiot one becomes.

Question#2) Given that IAF is out-numbered 6:1 and also surprised (credit to PAF for surprise), still Abhinandan went after an F-16 and was shot down. What is there to be ashamed here? He was not shot-down while running away. He was brave to go after a Pak aircraft, and was shot down.

Same silly claim that every brainless Indian makes. Making a fool out of an enemy who was given a challenge that we are coming and the enemy was indeed expecting us coming, finding the enemy vulnerabilities and hitting it hard is part of any military plan and its execution. Despite having hundreds of Asian raptors, M2Ks, and Bisons, IAF couldn't muster twenty front-line fighters when we came to hit your ***. That is no justification for getting bloody nose. BTW, these front-line IAF planes were forced to show their back by the PAF - not because these were less in numbers but - due to superior PAF EW capabilities. So even if you had 40 MKIs flying in the war theater, they would have turn their *** along with quite a few more of them sent burning to ground.

Question#3) Pakistanis claim that India has bombed a tree and killed a crow, and did not bomb any buildings. Do you believe that? French aircraft using Israeli missiles are not even capable of hitting a building? Remember, the same French aircraft + Israeli missiles hit targets with great accuracy during kargill war (while taking care not to cross border. Remember, those targets are on top of very high mountains, and our pilots have to take care of SAMs; PAF etc).

Yes, that was indeed the case. Nothing about believing or not. Media persons (including foreign one) visited the targeted place next day. It was a madrasah having teenagers getting education there and your bombs indeed turned incapable of hitting a building. Satellite images proved the same. Why should the world believe in your shameless lies then? Having French aircraft and Israeli missiles doesn't prove anything. Like Indians now downplaying their loss of a Bison calling it an old junk. Yes, Israeli tech is over rated. It was indeed an old junk that met its fate that it deserved.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agreed, instead of veterans being example for junior members. This is becoming a different case, i hope this is realized.

Hi,

You still have not taken any action against the member who wants to burn me and kill me---. Even his post is still on the forum---.

 

[Blacklight]

Hi,

You still have not taken any action against the member who wants to burn me and kill me---. Even his post is still on the forum---.

I think he was being figurative, not literal. Look on the bright side, due to Covid-19 flts are grounded, so no chance of him getting anywhere near you.

 

[araz]

Modi never said that.
All he said that if there were Rafales results would be different which is obvious since if two Meteor armed Rafales were on CAP they would have shot down 6-8 F16/JFT while staying outside their range.


No Su-30 pilot died in car accident.
The one died was an admin brach officer:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/31220

Also last crash of Su-30 in Rajasthan occured in 2017.


The Bison is great but it is disposable (except for pilot) just like USSR considered Curtiss P-40 disposable during WW2.
Nonethless even to shoot one bison you required 2-4 F-16s


Modi never said that.
All he said that if there were Meteors results would be different which is obvious since if two Meteor armed Rafales were on CAP they would have shot down 6-8 F16/JFT while staying outside their range.

Also there was no need to retaliate after 27th once you decided to release pilot as we are not going to retaliate/escalate for just a rusty MiG-21 as all our political, electoral and strategic objectives were achieved.
Thanks to Feb-26, Indian security forces casualties in J&K reduced by 75% in a year.

Your fighter is disposable and the poor wing commander whom I respect being a soldier who could easily have perished with his plane is also dispensible. And you lost a pilot shot down 4 trees in Kashmir andgot one fighter and a helo down with 6 personnel on board. So please enlighten me what objectives did you achieve? Yaar for heavens sake do you guys have any shame at all. What are you doing on a foreign forum defensing the indefensible situation. I mean how can your air force live down the shame of being called AMRAAM dodgers. Man if I were you I would sit back a d reevaluate what you have been trying to defend.
No doubt India is a bigger country with vastly more resources than Pakistan. You have more of everything. Then why do you celebrate those who ran away from the fight. It was a sad and shameful day for the IAF. I am sure they are trying their best to learn from their mistake and upgrade their platforms with basic things that they have slept on for ages and should have done.
A