Operation Rah-e-Rast (Swat)

[Xeric]

AFP: Afghanistan-Pakistan together in war on terror: ministers

Afghanistan-Pakistan together in war on terror: ministers

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

KABUL — Afghanistan and Pakistan vowed Saturday to work together in the fight against an insurgency gripping both nations, promising boosted border controls and closer co-operation on arresting terror suspects.

Rehman Malik, the Pakistani interior minister, told a press conference held jointly with his Afghan counterpart, Mohammad Anif Atmar, mistakes had been made "by both sides in the past" in the fight against Islamist militants.

But Islamabad and Kabul say they are now committed to root out insurgents on both sides of their rugged and mountainous common border where rebels are active.

"I would like to warn those terrorists on both sides: stop it," Malik said. "We've decided to take you on, we've decided to flush you out... you've killed so many people... throw your arms and ask for mercy from God."

The Taliban, who were in government in Afghanistan between 1996 and 2001 until they were ousted by a US-led invasion, are fighting to regain control of the vast, predominantly rural country and oust foreign troops.

Afghanistan's nearly eight-year insurgency is at its deadliest, forcing the United States to dispatch an extra 21,000 soldiers in a bid to stabilise the country ahead of presidential and provincial council elections on August 20.

Meanwhile about 2,000 people have died in Islamist bombings across Pakistan since July 2007, when government forces besieged a radical mosque in Islamabad.

The United States alleges that Islamist fighters hide out in the Pakistan mountains near the Afghan border, plotting attacks on Western targets and crossing the porous frontier to attack foreign troops based in Afghanistan.

"All you're doing is anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan, anti-Afghanistan and anti-humanity... stop it," Malik said, addressing militants.

The minister called on the international community to help Pakistan and Afghanistan strengthen their security forces against insurgents.

Atmar said: "We have agreed that this is not important where the terrorists are from. What's important is that wherever their training camps are, wherever they are being trained, financed and equipped is closed, whether it's on that side of the border or this side of the border," he said.

The Afghan minister said Kabul was ready to "arrest Pakistani terrorists" on Islamabad's demands and expected the same from its neighbour.

"When terrorists from Afghanistan take refuge in Pakistan we would like Pakistan to arrest him, hand him over to Afghanistan so we can try him where he has killed so many people," Atmar said.

Afghan officials have long claimed that senior insurgent operatives including Taliban's fugitive leader Mullah Mohammad Omar are hiding in the Pakistani tribal region.

Afghan and Pakistani security forces are to boost border control in the joint effort against militants, Malik said.

Islamabad is pressing an offensive against rebel strongholds on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, under pressure from Afghanistan's Western allies, the US and NATO forces.

Pakistani air strikes have increasingly targeted strongholds of Taliban warlord Baitullah Mehsud, described by the US State Department as a key Al-Qaeda facilitator in Pakistan's mountainous tribal region bordering Afghanistan.

Islamabad has also carried out air strikes against Mehsud hideouts with commanders vowing to hunt down the warlord's militant network in the remote northwest region known as a base for Taliban and Al-Qaeda rebels.

 

[fhassan]

A Very good commando action filmed from swat and waziristan war zone

Have you bothered to watch the video sunny?

It is a pro-Taliban video!

 

[S-2]

"It was decided to upgrade the command structure of SSG to better support the newly created units by raising it to Divisional level from Brigade level. The re-structuring plan was approved in June 2003 and now SSG command structure is very similar to any traditional Divisional HQ."

My suspicion is that this organizational structure was settled upon to reconcile administrative, logistical, and training functions at a command level that would assure uniform application.

I doubt that the operational employment of these forces would ever exceed brigade, only occasionally exceed battalion, and normally be conducted at the battalion or company level. Particularly in your west.

Further, your SSG contingents appear to be a more "kinetically-oriented" force than our U.S. Army Special Forces teams. Closer, perhaps, to our U.S. Army ranger battalions. While nominally grouped under the regimental flag of the 75th Infantry Regt. (Ranger), these units train and operate primarily at the company/battalion level but are organized administratively under a regimental command that acts, I suspect, much as your SSG Division.

I welcome any disagreement that might further illuminate the purpose of this divisional grouping for your SSG but that's my take.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well itsybitsy u just seem to be ignorant just as the tribal people or the taliban. he thinks tribal people are fighting for their faith

man u need to go to a doc and check out ur brains, may be its defected or u dont have it.

i wish to say so much to u for your this video but sadly i dont wana use the language which u deserve.

Moderators, could u kindly delete the video posted by this ignorant, misled *****************************************

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Multiple ID terrorist supporter/troll- Banned and deleted

 

[TaimiKhan]

Elmo, the SSG hasn't reached the divisional strength right now, but will in few years time, reason being SF aren't that easy to built. Just 6 or so years back the decision was taken to increase its strength, so going from one brigade to 3 brigades is not that easy. U need good men who can become SF & officers who are to be trained to lead these men. SF take a long time and hard training.

As for the deployment of commandos trained by USA in the tribal areas, well most probably they arent talking about SSG, rather the 400-600 FC commandos who as per recent articles have been trained by the 70 approx american trainers in pakistan and these FC commandos have been credited for some major kills.

SSG isnt used in the conventional army manner, they are deployed for strategic purposes, for missions which normal army can not take or have the stamina to do, just like the air assault in peochar valley.

SSG, when used in the first years of operations in SWS did took pretty heavy casualties due to improper planning and underestimating their opponents, but now they have reorganized & will take them head on just as in swat they did.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As for the deployment of commandos trained by USA in the tribal areas, well most probably they arent talking about SSG, rather the 400-600 FC commandos who as per recent articles have been trained by the 70 approx american trainers in pakistan and these FC commandos have been credited for some major kills.

I was going to say the same. The only known US SOF training presence is the pretty small one working with the FC Commando unit, with 400 trained per open source info.

That article is not accurate.

 

[blain2]

"It was decided to upgrade the command structure of SSG to better support the newly created units by raising it to Divisional level from Brigade level. The re-structuring plan was approved in June 2003 and now SSG command structure is very similar to any traditional Divisional HQ."

My suspicion is that this organizational structure was settled upon to reconcile administrative, logistical, and training functions at a command level that would assure uniform application.

S-2, the primary reason the SSG command was upgraded to the divisional level was to ensure that enough "specialized" SF are available for taking on the responsibilities against the conventional, and non-conventional threats. The former also had to do with the fact that IA is expanding its SF formations. Furthermore the idea has been that instead of using a uniformly trained Brigade, there is a need to have specialization in terms of the training and equipment in order to avoid the "jack of all trades" sort of a deal. Those who have followed the SSG employment would know what I am talking about here.

I doubt that the operational employment of these forces would ever exceed brigade, only occasionally exceed battalion, and normally be conducted at the battalion or company level. Particularly in your west.

It will in the future. The issue on hand is that the expansion is still in the works.

Further, your SSG contingents appear to be a more "kinetically-oriented" force than our U.S. Army Special Forces teams. Closer, perhaps, to our U.S. Army ranger battalions. While nominally grouped under the regimental flag of the 75th Infantry Regt. (Ranger), these units train and operate primarily at the company/battalion level but are organized administratively under a regimental command that acts, I suspect, much as your SSG Division.

SSG is definitely different from the US Army SF because they do not conduct any civil-military operations. That is a job that the regular Army does. In many ways SSG is probably closer to its organization and role to the SAS than the US Army SF. The command structure of the group is as such that the Division is commanded by a General Officer Commanding (a Maj Gen) who directly reports into the Chief of the General Staff (CGS). The CGS is one of the key officers advising the CoAS. In this way, the tasking for the SSG remains under the purview of the General Staff branch right under the Army chief. No regional commands or Corps have a role to play in the actual tasking or the training of the SSG.

I welcome any disagreement that might further illuminate the purpose of this divisional grouping for your SSG but that's my take.

Not much to disagree on there. The upgrade of the command to a divisional level has been done after considering the increased requirements on the SSG.

 

[TaimiKhan]

S-2, would like to disagree with you, reason being in actual strength terms the SSG has been increased to around 2 brigades or may be more, but divisional strength is little bit far away (9000 to 10000 soldiers approx in future). The reason for this increase is, the increase of theater of operations for SSG. As for India, a brigade level force was enough, but due to counter insurgency operations, it had to be increased, as this war is a long one, not a short one. It will keep going for many years to come, and using same level of forces for longer periods of time will bring stress on SSG, which in case of emergency with india will also have to take on india. And other reason could be increasing the role of SSG in peace time & war. SSG is deployed on UN missions, sent to foreign countries on exercise purposes & deployments, so with a brigade level force, all these missions will make SSG spread on a large scale. Troops in such kind of warfare need rotation to come to the level of peace time, as war inflicts wounds even to the best ones. In the recent air assualt in swat valley by SSG, i think it was the largest magnitude in which SSG was used in this war on taliban, nearly two battalions were airlifted and are operating in peochar valley, same case might happen in the coming war in wazirstan area.

 

[Xeric]

Ok, just a thought:

i dont know may be it's just me or some others also that since this operation started the SSG spear-headed most of the battles, but most of the concentration as regards to praise has been directed to the Army (the plain army) generally, videos, articles and posts have been up on this forum that were attributed to the SSG, but i think justice still needs to be done.

 

[TaimiKhan]

S-2, as blain 2 mentioned, SSG has a modular structure, they have company sized teams specializing in different kind of war fares.

Blain 2, would like to disagree here with u, in my opinion SSG has been used as Special Forces manners as americans do (example as in soviet times, SSG guys would be directly fighting the soviets or leading the afghan mujahideen in a battle), remember the operation to free the two chineese engineers, when one of them died, the SSG guys in civilian cloths had infiltrated the area, did reconnaissance and then launched the operation. Right now, in this war in tribal area, SSG teams are sent to do recy and i even heard from a very reliable source they are using for air strike purposes, to laze or co-ordinate the air strike.
SSG has been made on a modular structure, they can be used like ranger battalions and also as SF forces or in any kind of specialized war fare.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Xeric, wont agree with you, i have seen many news items, specially Express News, who had a reporting team with SSG in the peochar valley and they had many reports showing the action by SSG. Ary TV even showed the SSG commander giving a detailed briefing about the peochar valley operations.
Many of the shaheeds when showing their burial ceremony, they being commandos & from SSG had been mentioned.
Capt Bilal Zafar & Capt Najam, bot SSG commandos were given quiet coverage. Capt Najam the same guy who was captured by taliban in peace time and then executed by taliban, Capt Junaid the other officer who was with him, both were shown many times and still are. These two officers and with them 2 JCO/NCO did manage to kill few taliban before being martyred themselves.

 

[blain2]

Elmo says thank you!
Weren’t two brigades deployed there in a span of a year… that’s at least a thousand soldiers in the region, which have increased significantly in the last couple of years. As for long time, seven years is really long. How can you say that the “political atmosphere” was not conducive for large scale army action — the government here was strongly backed by the US to take such an action. People's sentiments rarely figure in taking such decisions. Also, the strategists were incorrect in their assessment of the situation on ground and so the forces were browbeaten.

Deploying two brigades means nothing if you are not clear on how they were employed. Were the two brigades employed in one operation or were the two brigades deployed in the northern areas? You have to be clear on what you are trying to say here instead of muddying up the issue. The largest operation before the current Swat one was Operation Sherdil that involved an entire Infantry Division in Bajaur etc.. Everything else prior to that was a limited case. This time around you essentially have a Corps + level effort and combined arms. There is a qualitative and quantitative difference by a factor of few here compared to anything else done in the past.

Secondly, you say "People's sentiments rarely figure in taking such decisions." Are you serious about this? What happens when the bodies of officers and ORs are sent back to their families at the scale we have witnessed without having any sort of support for the war? Do you think these things do not matter? Maybe they do not matter for the civilians but they sure do matter for those commanding their troops into battle, losing some and then the shaheeds not being recognized for their sacrifices. This was the prevailing case prior to the most recent operation. There were fatwas being given against praying for the martyred soldiers. So please do not trivialize this issue by treating it with "sentiments hardly matter" type of language.

Firstly, one is not implying that the army needs to take up economic development. That’s the work of the state and it is failing to do the same even now. Public Affairs work by the army has got nothing whatsoever to do with “economic” development of the region. You need to get your perspective right as well: economic developments in not “another” tool that “can” be used — it is a tool that “has” to be used.

You may not want to imply that, however the reality is that when economic relief goes into that area, its the Army which facilitates it. The state on many occasions has simply provided funding to the Army to do the work and I suspect considerable work in the future will also be done in such a way. The second part of your above post is a word play. "Can" and "Has"?, pick whichever one you want. The point I was making is that Army "Can" use the option of economic uplift if it has been given the resources. Also do not confuse economic development with Army setting up shops etc. It has to do with putting down the infrastructure so trade and other work can go and come out of the region. In the absence of other private and civilian entities, the Army has to do this sort of work in fairly remote areas. All of that from the stand point of the Army is civil-Army/public affairs type of work.


Army has operated in that region many times over and each time the solution simply has been to tire out the other side as you simply cannot destroy all of the opposition. Secondly, all of the operations prior to the ones starting recently have been small scale operations. The public support was simply not in place for the Army to go after its own people at such a large scale.

Please define "small-scale operations". All instances of army operations have been that of large-scale operations. In fact, that is one of the things that the Pakistan Army is criticised for.

Its relative to the problem on hand, the area where you are operating. The current operation and the Sher-dil series of operations conducted were all large-scale operations that included at least a Divisional effort. Prior to that, operations were taken at company or battalion level with units going in and conducting search and cordon type operations and then clearing out. Those who criticize the Army think that PA just goes into a populated area and shells it into oblivion. Nothing of this sort has been done. PA has indeed used artillery and even armour. However it has not been indiscriminate or random. When the Artillery fires, they are actually hitting positions up in the mountains or sparsely populated areas. Show me one case of Artillery fire being directed at densely populated or constructed areas. Those running the show in the Army are not oblivious to the risks with this approach. Give some credit where its due instead of believing everything you read elsewhere.

SSG is at the front lines even before the FC/Army move.

Apparently not in Waziristan… This is an August 4, 2008 report (originally printed in Daily Times) whose blurb says: “Bowing to mounting pressure from the Bush Administration, the Pakistan Government has reportedly agreed to deploy a Pakistani Special Service Group (SSG) unit, trained by Americans, in the Tribal Areas bordering Afghanistan.”

“Washington, Aug.4 : Bowing to mounting pressure from the Bush Administration, the Pakistan Government has reportedly agreed to deploy a Pakistani Special Service Group (SSG) unit, trained by Americans, in the Tribal Areas bordering Afghanistan. The Daily Times quoted a senior Pakistani official as saying that the deployment would meet Washington's longstanding demand for immediate action in the Tribal Areas, while at the same time ensure the sanctity of Pakistan's sovereignty.
The Los Angeles Times reported on Sunday that the Pakistani commando division, trained by the United States, is an elite special operations force similar to the U.S. Army's Special Forces, or Green Berets.
"The Americans are telling us that they need action now," the paper quoted a senior Pakistani official who attended meetings between Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and President Bush in Washington last week, as saying….”
Also, stats released by the army itself of the SSG conducting operations in Waziristan date them from 2003 onwards when in fact the army went in to the tribal areas in December 2001. A contradiction between the news report given first and other stuff quoted here, but it is clear that there is a two year gap between the presences of the SSG. In short, not on the front line!

I am not sure how I am to convince you. I know for a fact that SSG was deployed to do what it does. The very first operation conducted by the Pakistan Army in the tribal areas in the times of Musharraf was by the SSG. So lets not kid ourselves here based on silly reporting. SSG has been involved in a lot of operations in that area because of their familiarity and ability to operate in that terrain. Secondly, PA does not move specific units because the US tells us to do so. If the requirement is for the SOTF to be utilized, then the Special Operations Bn of the SSG will provide the resources for it. All of these decisions are made by the GHQ. The only pressure from the US side is to do something. What to do is decided by the GHQ.

Agreed SSG is more tactical than strategically but only those in the operations command can answer those questions. Clearly, the higher command has been unable to take advantage of the headway provided by small victories and hence been unable to consolidate its hold of the tribal areas.

You seem to be the only one going on and on about how the Army has failed, has been unable to take advantage (please do not come back with, its my right to criticise sort of a deal, because while that certainly is your right, the critique should be somewhat factual so it can be discussed) when the situation on the ground is quite different from the fairly negative spin you are putting on it. The higher command has taken some very excellent steps and many of those are paying dividends. Yes its not perfect but who said it was going to be? The challenges abound. There are still a lot of militants in the FATA and the leadership has regrouped, but in Swat, so far so good. Lets keep the momentum going and inshallah there will be encouraging results.

 

[mhacsan]

There are reports emerging, that Taliban are returning. Offcourse the sped with which this operation was carried, prones to lack of comprehensive planning plus lack of goverment will to keep the area clear of these miscreants.

Financial limitation could be an other reason for their resurface as goverment of pakistan kept asking for financial aid, on which most of the world did heed to and was taken as the money for their establishment.

if it turns out to be as the report says, its a point of embarresment for pak goverment for not winning enough support form rest of the world, and for the rest world it is an eye opner. indeed the efforts of pakistan army and intelligencies has to be applauded to much of the extent plus the brave souls who have laid thier lives to make this operation a success.

Taliban resurface in parts of Buner district

Taliban resurface in parts of Buner district


Saturday, July 18, 2009
FC officials deny report

By Delawar Jan

PESHAWAR: Taliban militants resurfaced in parts of the Buner district during the last several days, carrying out armed patrol on roads besides establishing a checkpoint in Pacha Killay, locals told The News on Friday.

The reports about the reappearance of the militants emanated from the district at a time when the people, displaced by the Taliban arrival and the subsequent military operation, are returning to their homes.

“My brother had gone back to his home after the start of the IDPs’ return, but the situation there was still precarious and the Taliban were active, which forced him to leave Buner again,” a resident of a village near Pir Baba said, requesting anonymity.

Locals said the militants had infested numerous parts of the Buner district. “The Taliban arrived in great numbers to Kalpani, which is a densely populated area, and Chagharzai. They terrified the people when they brazenly carried out armed patrol on a four-kilometre strip on the Kalpani-Chagharzai Road a couple of days back,” another resident of Buner, who also requested not to be identified, said.

He contended that during the operation, the Taliban militants had suffered meagre casualties and their numerical strength remained intact. The displaced people coming back, he apprehended, would not be safe there and they could migrate again. “They are moving back to the district, because they could not pass time in camps. They just want to be at their homes in this scorching heat and unfavourable conditions,” he argued.

The locals from Pacha Killay said the militants had established a checkpoint at a stream between Pacha Killay and Balo Khan a few days back, where they checked the people to single out government officials or their opponents.

“The checkpoint was set up a few days ago, but removed after shelling by security forces. However, they have set it up again and checked the people here on Friday,” a resident said.People of Pacha Killay said some 250-300 Taliban militants stormed the area a couple of days ago. There were also reports that they took away Rs 25,000 cash cards from the recently-returned IDPs.

The locals said the Taliban militants were still present in Pir Baba, Mula Banda, Dokada, Malikpur and Balo Khan. The militants, they added, were also present in Hisar, Gokand and other areas on this strip.

Meanwhile, the Amn Tehrik on Friday raised a serious concern over the military operation and said the Taliban’s top leaders were still alive. “How can we say the task has been completed when the top leadership of the Taliban is still alive? After the return of the IDPs, there is an apprehension of a wave of targeted killings,” Idress Kamal and Dr Said Alam Mehsud of the Amn Tehrik told a press conference here.

However, the Frontier Corps, which is leading the operation in Buner, denied setting up of a checkpoint and armed patrol by the Taliban. It also played down the concerns by some quarters about regrouping of the militants.

“There are no Taliban in Pacha Killay or any other area. The action against the Taliban was effective and now, there is no organised militancy in the area like before,” the FC officials said, when asked to comment on the situation in Buner.

However, it was conceded that the militants had attacked security forces’ position in the Bachkada area, which had been responded with full force. “Now that area has also been cleared and two local Taliban commanders arrested,” the officials said.

 

[blain2]

Blain 2, would like to disagree here with u, in my opinion SSG has been used as Special Forces manners as americans do (example as in soviet times, SSG guys would be directly fighting the soviets or leading the afghan mujahideen in a battle),

Taimkhan,

I believe you misunderstood. The US Army Special Forces train for and conduct fairly significant civil-military operations. These are essentially operations to build trust with the community where the SF operators are operating and weaning the population from supporting the other side (in case of COIN). The SSG does no such thing and never has. What the SSG can and has done is to conduct not only Foreign Internal Defence training, but it can advise and train the population in the guerrilla warfare. This is how the SSG has operated in Afghanistan during the Soviet war and we have done this elsewhere as well.

remember the operation to free the two chineese engineers, when one of them died, the SSG guys in civilian cloths had infiltrated the area, did reconnaissance and then launched the operation.

Yes but that is under the realm of Counter Terrorism operations and not Public Affairs type of work Recce is the usual practice prior to all operations because the success of a special force is in the approach to the battlefield (by battlefield I mean any military operation on hand).

Right now, in this war in tribal area, SSG teams are sent to do recy and i even heard from a very reliable source they are using for air strike purposes, to laze or co-ordinate the air strike.
SSG has been made on a modular structure, they can be used like ranger battalions and also as SF forces or in any kind of specialized war fare.

Correct, however my point was in the context of the Civil-military operations type work. This is what the US Army SF do and many others like SSG do not do so (unless they are the only ones around).