Barrett
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agreed, trying to prove the same point that it's not even anywhere close to 40%
Thanks for the correction
Operation Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan)
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agreed, trying to prove the same point that it's not even anywhere close to 40%
Thanks for the correction
TaimiKhan
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Sir, in real figure the defense budget has not increased, 50Bllion have been allotted for incurring costs, which would be refunded by US though CSF, as they take time so this temporary arrangement was done. Defence budget for last 2 years nearly same, army has implemented very strict cost saving measures and the donation of certain amount of daily ration for IDPs is also a measure to reduce the burden on the govt.
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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That is incorrect as well - the 2.5% figure reflects the Indian defence budget as a percentage of GDP, not as a percentage of the total budget.
Indias' total budget outlay for 2009-10: 10,20,838 crore
India's defence budget outlay: 1,41,703 crore - 13.88% of total budget
Which is pretty close to Pakistan's outlay.
Neither country includes civil defence expenditure (paramilitaries) or defence pensions in its defence budget (since this is typically the next objection that gets thrown out).
You missed the point made by AZ - our defence budget as a percentage of GDP and the budget has come down drastically in the last ten years. The trend has been that of a decrease every year. It is still relatively high, but unless you can get Allah to send down some angels to keep the Indians (and now the terrorists - Taliban and AQ) at bay, it is also a necessary expense.
Can you guarantee the Indians will not pull off another East Pakistan or Siachen, or that the Taliban will not try to take over Pakistan as they did in SW and Swat, dir and Buner?
ajpirzada
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lets say US and india is funding TTP. now wat? should we stop fighting TTP and let them take control of our way of life?
ajpirzada
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adding to the defence budget...
also take into account Rs value comin down from 60$ to 80/81$ and inflation of 20% over last year. this means defence spending in real dollar terms has come down by a significant amount.
also take into account Rs value comin down from 60$ to 80/81$ and inflation of 20% over last year. this means defence spending in real dollar terms has come down by a significant amount.
Abu Zolfiqar
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ajpirzada
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ajpirzada
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By SABRINA TAVERNISE and ERIC SCHMITT
Published: November 17, 2009
SARAROGHA, Pakistan This windswept, sand-colored town in the badlands of western Pakistan is empty now, cleared of the militants who once claimed it as their capital. But its brick buildings, intact and thick with dust, tell not of an epic battle, but of sudden flight.
Notes from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and other areas of conflict in the post-9/11 era. Go to the Blog »
Related
Brown Vows to Continue War Effort in Afghanistan (November 18, 2009)
Training of Afghan Police by Europe Is Found Lacking (November 18, 2009)
At War: A Scrapbook From the Tribal Areas
A month after the Pakistani military began its push into the Taliban stronghold of South Waziristan, militants appear to have been dispersed, not eliminated, with most simply fleeing. That recurring pattern illustrated the problems facing the Obama administration as it enters its final days of a decision on its strategy for Afghanistan.
Success in this region, in the remote mountains near the Afghan border, could have a direct bearing on how many more American troops are ultimately sent to Afghanistan, and how long they must stay.
Pakistan has shown increased willingness to tackle the problem, launching sweeping operations in the north and west of the country this year, but American officials are still urging it to do more, most recently in a letter from President Obama to Pakistans president, Asif Ali Zardari, over the weekend.
On Tuesday, the military escorted journalists on a tour of the area, where it closely restricts access, showing piles of things they had seized, including weapons, bombs, photos and even a long, curly wig. It all started from here, said Brig. Muhammed Shafiq, the commander here. This is the most important town in South Waziristan.
But lasting success has been elusive, tempered by an agile enemy that has moved easily from one part of the tribal areas to the next and even deeper into Pakistan virtually every time it has been challenged.
American analysts expressed surprise at the relatively light fighting and light Pakistani Army casualties seven soldiers in five days in Sararogha supporting their suspicions that the Taliban fighters from the local Mehsud tribe and the foreign fighters who are their allies, including a large contingent of Uzbeks, have headed north or deeper into the mountains. In comparison, 51 Americans were killed in eight days of fighting in Falluja, Iraq, in 2004.
Thats what bothers me, an American intelligence officer said. Where are they?
The Pakistani military says it has learned from past failures in a region where it lost hundreds of men in fighting before. It spent weeks bombing the area before its 30,000 troops entered. It struck alliances with neighboring tribes.
But the pending campaign was no secret, allowing time for local people and militants to escape.
They are fleeing in all directions, said a senior Pakistani security official, who did not want to be identified while discussing national security issues. The Uzbeks are fleeing to Afghanistan and the north, and the Mehsuds are fleeing to any possible place they can think of.
Even so, the fact that the military now occupies the area is something of a success, analysts say, and American officials have expressed measured praise for the Pakistani operation so far.
The Pakistani Army has done pretty well, and they have learned lessons from the Swat campaign, including the use of close-air support from their fighter jets, said a senior American intelligence official, referring to the armys first offensive this spring.
But big questions remain: How long will the military be able to hold the territory? And once they leave, will the militants simply come back?
Are they really winning the people this is the big question, said Talat Masood, a military analyst and former general in Islamabad, the capital. They have weakened the Taliban tactically, but have they really won the area if the people are not with them?
Winning them over will not be easy. Waziristans largely Pashtun population has been abandoned by the military repeatedly in the past, including in 2005, when, after a peace deal, a military commander called Baitullah Mehsud, the head of the Taliban, a soldier of peace. People who are from this area are still deeply skeptical of the armys intentions.
People want to know: how serious is the military this time? said a military official who asked not to be named in order not to undermine the official position publicly.
The military argues that it is, saying that it has lost 70 soldiers in this operation so far, on top of more than 1,000 killed in the last several years of conflict.
Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, principle spokesman for the Pakistan military, said that about 50 percent of the Mehsud territory is now under army control, including most major towns and roads, and that the military would soon begin to press into villages where militants were hiding.
Finding a reliable local partner will be difficult. The Taliban and Al Qaeda have ruled the impoverished area for so long that they have altered its social structure, killing hundreds of tribal elders and making it hard for the military to negotiate.
The alliances that the military has struck with neighboring tribal leaders, including Hafiz Gul Bahadur, may also prove problematic. The senior Pakistani security official said Mr. Bahadur was hosting the families of two top Pakistani Taliban leaders.
Some American officials also voiced concern that if and when the Pakistani Army crushes the Mehsuds, it will declare victory and cut more permanent peace deals with other Pakistani militant factions, rather than fighting and defeating them.
Theyve got a huge problem and they dont have it figured out so far, said the first American intelligence officer.
But the Pakistani military argues that as long as the other groups are not attacking the Pakistani Army or state, it would be foolish to draw them into the war, particularly because Pakistan is not confident the United States will be around much longer.
Mr. Masood explained the thinking: You are 10,000 miles away and we are going to live with them, so how can we take on every crook who is hostile to you?
And there is history to overcome. One Pakistani intelligence official pointed to the American abandonment of the region in 1989, after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan. If they leave in haste, like they left in the past, we will be back to the bad old days, the official said. Our jihadis would head back to Afghanistan, reopen training camps, and it will be business as usual.
Sabrina Tavernise reported from Sararogha, Pakistan, and Eric Schmitt from Washington. Ismail Khan contributed reporting from Peshawar, Pakistan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/world/asia/18pstan.html
Published: November 17, 2009
SARAROGHA, Pakistan This windswept, sand-colored town in the badlands of western Pakistan is empty now, cleared of the militants who once claimed it as their capital. But its brick buildings, intact and thick with dust, tell not of an epic battle, but of sudden flight.
Notes from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and other areas of conflict in the post-9/11 era. Go to the Blog »
Related
Brown Vows to Continue War Effort in Afghanistan (November 18, 2009)
Training of Afghan Police by Europe Is Found Lacking (November 18, 2009)
At War: A Scrapbook From the Tribal Areas
A month after the Pakistani military began its push into the Taliban stronghold of South Waziristan, militants appear to have been dispersed, not eliminated, with most simply fleeing. That recurring pattern illustrated the problems facing the Obama administration as it enters its final days of a decision on its strategy for Afghanistan.
Success in this region, in the remote mountains near the Afghan border, could have a direct bearing on how many more American troops are ultimately sent to Afghanistan, and how long they must stay.
Pakistan has shown increased willingness to tackle the problem, launching sweeping operations in the north and west of the country this year, but American officials are still urging it to do more, most recently in a letter from President Obama to Pakistans president, Asif Ali Zardari, over the weekend.
On Tuesday, the military escorted journalists on a tour of the area, where it closely restricts access, showing piles of things they had seized, including weapons, bombs, photos and even a long, curly wig. It all started from here, said Brig. Muhammed Shafiq, the commander here. This is the most important town in South Waziristan.
But lasting success has been elusive, tempered by an agile enemy that has moved easily from one part of the tribal areas to the next and even deeper into Pakistan virtually every time it has been challenged.
American analysts expressed surprise at the relatively light fighting and light Pakistani Army casualties seven soldiers in five days in Sararogha supporting their suspicions that the Taliban fighters from the local Mehsud tribe and the foreign fighters who are their allies, including a large contingent of Uzbeks, have headed north or deeper into the mountains. In comparison, 51 Americans were killed in eight days of fighting in Falluja, Iraq, in 2004.
Thats what bothers me, an American intelligence officer said. Where are they?
The Pakistani military says it has learned from past failures in a region where it lost hundreds of men in fighting before. It spent weeks bombing the area before its 30,000 troops entered. It struck alliances with neighboring tribes.
But the pending campaign was no secret, allowing time for local people and militants to escape.
They are fleeing in all directions, said a senior Pakistani security official, who did not want to be identified while discussing national security issues. The Uzbeks are fleeing to Afghanistan and the north, and the Mehsuds are fleeing to any possible place they can think of.
Even so, the fact that the military now occupies the area is something of a success, analysts say, and American officials have expressed measured praise for the Pakistani operation so far.
The Pakistani Army has done pretty well, and they have learned lessons from the Swat campaign, including the use of close-air support from their fighter jets, said a senior American intelligence official, referring to the armys first offensive this spring.
But big questions remain: How long will the military be able to hold the territory? And once they leave, will the militants simply come back?
Are they really winning the people this is the big question, said Talat Masood, a military analyst and former general in Islamabad, the capital. They have weakened the Taliban tactically, but have they really won the area if the people are not with them?
Winning them over will not be easy. Waziristans largely Pashtun population has been abandoned by the military repeatedly in the past, including in 2005, when, after a peace deal, a military commander called Baitullah Mehsud, the head of the Taliban, a soldier of peace. People who are from this area are still deeply skeptical of the armys intentions.
People want to know: how serious is the military this time? said a military official who asked not to be named in order not to undermine the official position publicly.
The military argues that it is, saying that it has lost 70 soldiers in this operation so far, on top of more than 1,000 killed in the last several years of conflict.
Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, principle spokesman for the Pakistan military, said that about 50 percent of the Mehsud territory is now under army control, including most major towns and roads, and that the military would soon begin to press into villages where militants were hiding.
Finding a reliable local partner will be difficult. The Taliban and Al Qaeda have ruled the impoverished area for so long that they have altered its social structure, killing hundreds of tribal elders and making it hard for the military to negotiate.
The alliances that the military has struck with neighboring tribal leaders, including Hafiz Gul Bahadur, may also prove problematic. The senior Pakistani security official said Mr. Bahadur was hosting the families of two top Pakistani Taliban leaders.
Some American officials also voiced concern that if and when the Pakistani Army crushes the Mehsuds, it will declare victory and cut more permanent peace deals with other Pakistani militant factions, rather than fighting and defeating them.
Theyve got a huge problem and they dont have it figured out so far, said the first American intelligence officer.
But the Pakistani military argues that as long as the other groups are not attacking the Pakistani Army or state, it would be foolish to draw them into the war, particularly because Pakistan is not confident the United States will be around much longer.
Mr. Masood explained the thinking: You are 10,000 miles away and we are going to live with them, so how can we take on every crook who is hostile to you?
And there is history to overcome. One Pakistani intelligence official pointed to the American abandonment of the region in 1989, after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan. If they leave in haste, like they left in the past, we will be back to the bad old days, the official said. Our jihadis would head back to Afghanistan, reopen training camps, and it will be business as usual.
Sabrina Tavernise reported from Sararogha, Pakistan, and Eric Schmitt from Washington. Ismail Khan contributed reporting from Peshawar, Pakistan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/world/asia/18pstan.html
waraich66
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become an investigative reporter, or join politics.....and form one.
I dont want to take panga with our politicians and big shoots eating our national resources with both hands :lol
courageneverdies
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Rawalpindi - November 17, 2009:
South Waziristan - Operation Rah-e-Nijat.
South Waziristan - Operation Rah-e-Nijat.
Security forces are consolidating their positions on all three axes. Details of the operations are as follows:-
a. On Jandola Sararogha Axis
(1) Security forces secured important feature point 1665, 1 km south of Janata.
(2) Sanitization of Khazhikai, Shuza Sar was conducted and 6 IEDs were defused along with recovery of few weapons.
(2) Sara Rogha has been completely cleared and fully under control of security forces.
b. On Shakai Kaniguram Axis
(1) Security forces carried out consolidation of positions at Ghundai Gur, Tikrai Sar, Sultano, Pungai, Ladha Fort and Bangel Khel.
(2) Security forces carried out search operation at Gani Khel, Khaikaeh Narai and recovered huge cache of arms and ammunition.
(3) Search operation was conducted at Torwam and 15 compounds were cleared and 1 tunnel system was found and destroyed.
(4) Terrorists fired 3 rockets at Asman Manza and Kaniguram which was responded effectively.
c. On Razmak- Makeen Axis
(1) Security forces are strengthening their positions on Razmak-Makeen Axis.
(2) Security forces cleared Blanki Sar and destroyed 6 terrorists bunkers.
3. Relief Activities.
11,794 Cash Cards have issued to displaced families of Waziristan.
---
KIT Over n Out
waraich66
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Thanks for correction , Indian budget is 2.34% of GDP and our's 3% which is mentioned in provided links , which is very high for under develop country.How much we are spending for education and health is shame full to mention here.
You know our expenditure is exceeding our income and there was no insurgency in FATA uptil 2003 .
US forced us to engineer this operation to continue their ****** strategy, but atleast we should tell them about our economic conditions but all parties are silent and just watching and waiting for political point securing ?????
Why our elected members are not raising issue of economic impact of this WOT war on our economy ?????? What is contigency planing ???????
Every Pakistani is worried if this war continue for one year or more our inflation and poverty level will furture increase.
FATA is among most backward areas of Pakistan ,which need a long term development plan , which can be only successful with local participation.
You know Al Qaeada was planted there in early 80'S during Afghan Jehad, Thirty year time is enough for any organisation for establishment well. Practically they are running economic and financial system of that areas with help of local war lords.Size of this parallel economy is much bigger then our economy.Our few security agencies are basically part of this parallel economy.
Mant times we flushed these terrorists but again they reestablish their pockets why???????
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waraich66
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Bhai Sb,
TTP and AL Qeada have multiple resources of funds , they are giving more money to their fighter then PA .we need to first cut their supply lines passing through corridors of boarder security forces and local government. .
In 80's this parallel economy is sucking 200 Billion .Now it is more then our annual budget.
vsdoc
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In equally bold letters ..... what can you do about it?
Take care of your own mess first and stop trying to poke your collective national nose where it is not welcome.
Afghanistan is not Pakistan.
Iran is not Pakistan.
We have national interests in both.
And they will engage with us on their terms ..... not yours.
Deal with it.
Or not.
Don't give a rodent's posterior either way.
Cheers, Doc
fatman17
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Laddah, Sararogha cleared; street fighting in Makin
By Zahid Hussain
Wednesday, 18 Nov, 2009
LADDAH: The mud-compound, which had a part of its outer wall blown up by artillery fire, was used as an Al Qaeda training facility until recently.
Jihadi literature and guerilla training manuals, mostly in Arabic, lay in a heap amidst a huge pile of weapons left by the insurgents after security forces captured Laddah, a key militant stronghold in South Waziristan.
Army officials said on Tuesday that the place was used for militant as well as ideological training. ‘We have intercepted communications revealing the presence of a large number of foreign fighters in the area, mostly Arabs and Uzbeks,’ Brig Farrukh Jamal said.
The compound sits next to a sprawling fort, built by the British in 1932, which has been destroyed in the battle for the town which raged for several days.
The town looked deserted as its entire population of 10,000 has fled, leaving all their belongings. Many of the houses have been destroyed in intense shelling.
The devastation was worse in Sararogha, another major town in the region which was described by the army as the nerve-centre of the Taliban. Heaps of mud bricks and twisted iron were all that was left of the town after the forces seized it.
Soldiers took positions on the rubble of Sararogha fort, destroyed by the Taliban in an attack last year. There was not a single civilian to be seen in the devastated town, some 30km from Laddah.
‘We faced tough resistance from the insurgents, most of them Arabs and Uzbeks,’ said Brig Mohammed Shafiq whose forces captured Sararogha last week.
They had built long tunnels in the mountains from where it was very difficult to dislodge them, he said.
A ramshackle students’ hostel building was turned into insurgent headquarters. One of the rooms whose roof was blown up by a mortar shell was used as Taliban’s ‘Sharia court’.
A bloodstained shirt was strung from a pedestal fan. ‘No one should question the ruling of the Islamic court,’ read a directive issued by the Taliban high command.
A part of the building was also used for training suicide bombers. ‘Many of the suicide bombers involved in the recent attacks in Pakistani cities were trained here,’ said Brig Shafiq.
Military officials said they had captured most towns once under rebel control in a key district along the Afghan border.
More than 30,000 troops, backed by air force jets, launched the massive operation in South Waziristan on Oct 17, vowing to crush Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan which was blamed for most of the suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of people in recent months.
The capture of the two major towns has cleared the way for the forces to advance towards Makin, the hometown of slain Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud.
‘Our forces have already entered Makin and are engaged in street fighting,’ said Brig Jamal.
The military officials said the first part of the offensive, aimed at seizing control of the region once ruled by Taliban, would be over by the end of the current month — before a harsh winter sets in.
More than 500 militants have been killed in the fighting so far and 70 soldiers have lost their lives, Maj-Gen Athar Abbas, the chief military spokesman, said.
Maj-Gen Abbas told reporters escorted by the army into South Waziristan that forces had captured most of the population centres and disrupted the militants’ food supply line.
‘The myth has been broken that this was a graveyard for empires and it would be a graveyard for the army,’ Maj-Gen Abbas said. ‘Major towns and population centres have been secured.’
The military said there were around 10,000 militant fighters in the area. Most of them, including the top commander, are believed to have fled to other tribal areas, raising fears of a long-drawn guerilla war.
Azam Tariq, a spokesman for the Taliban, in a video message on a militant website has denied the military’s claim, saying the insurgents had suffered much less casualties.
He also vowed to continue a guerilla war targeting security installations in major cities.
Although he had denied that the Taliban were responsible for a recent suicide bombing in a Peshawar market that killed more than 120 people, security officials said communication intercepted by intelligence agencies showed their involvement in attacks on civilians.
‘It is a part of their propaganda tactics to deny killing innocent people,’ an official said.
There are also strong concerns about maintaining the hold on the extremely treacherous terrain because of the collapse of civilian administration. The other major challenge being faced by the government is rehabilitation and reconstruction.
More than 300,000 people have left their homes and taken refuge in areas outside the conflict zone.
Analysts and officials said most of them had lost everything in the fighting and a massive effort would be needed to help them restart
By Zahid Hussain
Wednesday, 18 Nov, 2009
LADDAH: The mud-compound, which had a part of its outer wall blown up by artillery fire, was used as an Al Qaeda training facility until recently.
Jihadi literature and guerilla training manuals, mostly in Arabic, lay in a heap amidst a huge pile of weapons left by the insurgents after security forces captured Laddah, a key militant stronghold in South Waziristan.
Army officials said on Tuesday that the place was used for militant as well as ideological training. ‘We have intercepted communications revealing the presence of a large number of foreign fighters in the area, mostly Arabs and Uzbeks,’ Brig Farrukh Jamal said.
The compound sits next to a sprawling fort, built by the British in 1932, which has been destroyed in the battle for the town which raged for several days.
The town looked deserted as its entire population of 10,000 has fled, leaving all their belongings. Many of the houses have been destroyed in intense shelling.
The devastation was worse in Sararogha, another major town in the region which was described by the army as the nerve-centre of the Taliban. Heaps of mud bricks and twisted iron were all that was left of the town after the forces seized it.
Soldiers took positions on the rubble of Sararogha fort, destroyed by the Taliban in an attack last year. There was not a single civilian to be seen in the devastated town, some 30km from Laddah.
‘We faced tough resistance from the insurgents, most of them Arabs and Uzbeks,’ said Brig Mohammed Shafiq whose forces captured Sararogha last week.
They had built long tunnels in the mountains from where it was very difficult to dislodge them, he said.
A ramshackle students’ hostel building was turned into insurgent headquarters. One of the rooms whose roof was blown up by a mortar shell was used as Taliban’s ‘Sharia court’.
A bloodstained shirt was strung from a pedestal fan. ‘No one should question the ruling of the Islamic court,’ read a directive issued by the Taliban high command.
A part of the building was also used for training suicide bombers. ‘Many of the suicide bombers involved in the recent attacks in Pakistani cities were trained here,’ said Brig Shafiq.
Military officials said they had captured most towns once under rebel control in a key district along the Afghan border.
More than 30,000 troops, backed by air force jets, launched the massive operation in South Waziristan on Oct 17, vowing to crush Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan which was blamed for most of the suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of people in recent months.
The capture of the two major towns has cleared the way for the forces to advance towards Makin, the hometown of slain Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud.
‘Our forces have already entered Makin and are engaged in street fighting,’ said Brig Jamal.
The military officials said the first part of the offensive, aimed at seizing control of the region once ruled by Taliban, would be over by the end of the current month — before a harsh winter sets in.
More than 500 militants have been killed in the fighting so far and 70 soldiers have lost their lives, Maj-Gen Athar Abbas, the chief military spokesman, said.
Maj-Gen Abbas told reporters escorted by the army into South Waziristan that forces had captured most of the population centres and disrupted the militants’ food supply line.
‘The myth has been broken that this was a graveyard for empires and it would be a graveyard for the army,’ Maj-Gen Abbas said. ‘Major towns and population centres have been secured.’
The military said there were around 10,000 militant fighters in the area. Most of them, including the top commander, are believed to have fled to other tribal areas, raising fears of a long-drawn guerilla war.
Azam Tariq, a spokesman for the Taliban, in a video message on a militant website has denied the military’s claim, saying the insurgents had suffered much less casualties.
He also vowed to continue a guerilla war targeting security installations in major cities.
Although he had denied that the Taliban were responsible for a recent suicide bombing in a Peshawar market that killed more than 120 people, security officials said communication intercepted by intelligence agencies showed their involvement in attacks on civilians.
‘It is a part of their propaganda tactics to deny killing innocent people,’ an official said.
There are also strong concerns about maintaining the hold on the extremely treacherous terrain because of the collapse of civilian administration. The other major challenge being faced by the government is rehabilitation and reconstruction.
More than 300,000 people have left their homes and taken refuge in areas outside the conflict zone.
Analysts and officials said most of them had lost everything in the fighting and a massive effort would be needed to help them restart
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