Operation Blue Star -Sikh Holocaust 1984

[A1Kaid]

I was in London as Operation Blue Star unfolded. I can understand Delhi’s stand that there can’t be a state within a state. In some ways it resembles Lal Masjid operation some quarter a century later in Islamabad.

As an outsider, IMO the problem lies not with the Operation Blue Star itself but its aftermath. Indra Gandhi was killed by a Sikh guard and any where from 10,000 to 50,000 (probably nearer 20,000) innocent Sikhs were looted and killed by an organized violence against the Sikhs as revenge, with law enforcing agencies calmly standing by doing nothing. I came across many inquiry reports, in one such report some 70 police officers were named as being directly involved, but not a single has been punished for it to my knowledge.

The process was repeated in Gujarat anti Muslim riots with the blessing of the butcher Narender Modi, who could ironically be the next Indian Prime Minister.

I just found this very revealing and truthful speech by a Sikh man, he discusses much of what you said above about police allowing Hindu rioters to kill Sikhs freely and Hindu Government facilitating the crimes...It's clear the Sikh militants or terrorist (whatever your opinion is) were not the only deliberate targets. Even unarmed Sikhs were the targets...


I recommend watching the video below.

Very truthful and passionate speech.

 

[bandit]

Your emotions need to be kept under control or you won't last very long here, and you keep mentioning "your" and "your viewpoint", specifically point out what I said was commenting on "half-baked facts". Before you make further posts it is you who ought to do more reading because the BS allegations your pressing do not apply and are invalid.

What emotions did I display???

What allegations did I make???

The half baked facts were the ones you were putting up regarding Hindu gods...other members have tried to explain you the facts but since you don't seem to be willing to understand...i do not see any use explaining them again to you.

And it is you who seems to be getting emotional and threatening me...you do know what sort of emotion invokes threatening behavior don't you...its got something to do with fear.

 

[A1Kaid]

What emotions did I display???

What allegations did I make???

And it is you who seems to be getting emotional and threatening me...you do know what sort of emotion invokes threatening behavior don't you...its got something to do with fear.

Calm down, I was not threatening you I was just making you aware the Forum does not tolerate the kind of disrespect you were showing...

Now you made some allegations and you should explain and prove them...

"What allegations did I make???"-bandit

Your charges and allegations are below.

"but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts."-bandit

What theory carries no weight, maybe not on your delusional scale but truth is many Sikhs did die in the aftermath of the Operation and Operation BlueStar was devastating for the Sikhs, that is not a theory...

But be specific what "theories" are you referring to.

What theories, be specific post the wild conspiracy theories I have posted in regards to Operation Blue Star.

"The operation was not against a community as you try to make it out."-bandit

When did I try to "make it out" that way, using my own opinions.

"There are larger tangible proofs to negate your viewpoint like Punjab being the richest/Sikh PM/Large representation in the Forces/No terrorism."-bandit

Now you better prove your allegations. You keep using the words "you" and "your" so they are directed at me.


Now prove your allegations and be specific.

 

[MZUBAIR]

The operation was carried out by Indian army troops with tanks and armoured vehicles.Nodoubt the Militarily operation was successful. But I believe Khalis wounds are still fresh. Please correct me, I heard that there are number of Liberal movements in India.

 

[bandit]

"Your charges and allegations are below.

but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts."-bandit.

You are an outsider- True.

Your theories on Hindu gods were half baked facts which belie your claim of understanding and knowledge as previously pointed out.

"What theories, be specific post the wild conspiracy theories I have posted in regards to Operation Blue Star.

An Example

Well actually Sikhism is a monotheistic faith and Hinduism is a pagan faith or polytheistic faith.

Sikhs believe in a single supreme God not millions of God's Hindus believe in. Sikhs have different religious rituals than Hindus, and Sikhs do not worship animals like Hindus.

So these are considerable and distinct difference between Sikhism, Sikhism does have small influences from Hinduism. Though many would say Sikhism is a different religion from Hinduism.

So Sikhism and Hinduism are technically different religions.

When did I try to "make it out" that way, using my own opinions.

All you've been trying to do is highlight the differences b/w Hinduism and Sikhism, your opinions were the ones that suggested that hindus mistreat sikhs...putting up youtube videos a while back showing crap weren't you.

 

[vsdoc]

I honestly feel that religion more than anything else has been the biggest cause of strife in the world. Not just in India ..... or Pakistan, but all over, across the ages. Man will find a way to kill man in the name of religion. And its just not different religions necessarily, or the majority mob hunting the minority. If that were the case then single state religion countries like Pakistan would have no strife and killing in the name of religion, coz there is really no "minority" to even speak about. So if Pakistani brothers feel the need to be sanctimonious and preach to Indians about killing in the name of religion, painting the canvas with a Hindu tyranny palette (be it against Muslims or Christians or Sikhs), then maybe it is time for them to introspect and take a deep look into the mirror and ask themselves why are Muslims killing Muslims in their own country, as well as in other Islamic countries too. Bottom line, please worship God in the way you want to, and be tolerant and respectful and open minded about the fact that others may choose to worship the same God in a different way. There is enough space on the planet for all beliefs. The trouble happens when we assume we are right, and others are not, and they either come around to our way looking at things, or we wipe them out. This raises suspicions, fears, insecurities, and a unhealthy isolation of us-and-them, with a collective persecution complex that further foments inward-looking narrow-mindedness and intolerance of anything different or foreign or from "outside." Please remember that on a global stage, from time immemorial, the most blood has been shed by the most intolerant religions.

Think about it.

Cheers, Doc

 

[duhastmish]

I honestly feel that religion more than anything else has been the biggest cause of strife in the world. Not just in India ..... or Pakistan, but all over, across the ages. Man will find a way to kill man in the name of religion. And its just not different religions necessarily, or the majority mob hunting the minority. If that were the case then single state religion countries like Pakistan would have no strife and killing in the name of religion, coz there is really no "minority" to even speak about. So if Pakistani brothers feel the need to be sanctimonious and preach to Indians about killing in the name of religion, painting the canvas with a Hindu tyranny palette (be it against Muslims or Christians or Sikhs), then maybe it is time for them to introspect and take a deep look into the mirror and ask themselves why are Muslims killing Muslims in their own country, as well as in other Islamic countries too. Bottom line, please worship God in the way you want to, and be tolerant and respectful and open minded about the fact that others may choose to worship the same God in a different way. There is enough space on the planet for all beliefs. The trouble happens when we assume we are right, and others are not, and they either come around to our way looking at things, or we wipe them out. This raises suspicions, fears, insecurities, and a unhealthy isolation of us-and-them, with a collective persecution complex that further foments inward-looking narrow-mindedness and intolerance of anything different or foreign or from "outside." Please remember that on a global stage, from time immemorial, the most blood has been shed by the most intolerant religions.

Think about it.

Cheers, Doc

Hi doc, i think you said it very well there.

just to add some more.

- religion is not the reason here, for demise of humanitarian love. its human interpretation of religion . religion was always meant for those human values and ethics. i think we as man kind are so mindless that we - go for iconic and physical aspect of religion not the meaning ( most times).

yes thats why - most of the religious countries or region are in deep trouble - be it south America, Russia,east europe, middle east, indian, or bible belt in united states ..... etc etc. It never holds true that people out of these region dont belive in god - but for sure they are not stuck to same age old - form of religion.

religion should change according to time - because human custom, science, ethics , society , life,communication, art and morals changes with time.

we are following our books , be it Koran , geeta , bible , Guru granth sahib, vedas etc. without putting the context of time and space. with respect to their symbolic meaning. people who do that - and are following this neo-religion of humanity. and are sucessful and happy and probably on the right path.

ofcourse going in right opposite direction is also meaningless. because to a person like me - being atheist means - you have no scale to judge morals , ethics, humanity and your values. relgiion is what tells you whats right and whats wrong. it works as a scale to you. so religion is very important for survival of a good human civilization.

 

[vsdoc]

Yup I agree. Religion in terms of belief, faith, values, concept of right and wrong, good and evil, concept of life, death and after-life, the soul and its evolution, final judgment and the balance sheet, all these things in many ways are universal to all religions across the world.

Yet we kill in the name of religion. Wars are fought in the name of religion. Countries divided in the name of religion. It all boils down to intolerance and fear in the end. And a marked lack of respect. The politics of religion is where all the problems start. And fanatic attitudes which see no middle ground.

But as a nation we have matured to a great extent. And the dangers from without have caused us to come together as one within, as Indians, and not as different religions. This was clearly seen in our collective National reaction post 26/11, both by Hindu and Muslim Indians. In many ways therefore, Kasab and his brothers in arms, did us a big favor, ripple effects of which were seen in the general elections and will be seen in the days to come.

Cheers, Doc

 

[sob]

But as a nation we have matured to a great extent. And the dangers from without have caused us to come together as one within, as Indians, and not as different religions. This was clearly seen in our collective National reaction post 26/11, both by Hindu and Muslim Indians. In many ways therefore, Kasab and his brothers in arms, did us a big favor, ripple effects of which were seen in the general elections and will be seen in the days to come.

Cheers, Doc

Doc, Completely agree with you. We are seeing a maturing of our nation. Just to remind our friends, the reaction of the local community post 26/11

Mumbai?s Muslims take bold stand, brand 26/11 terrorists murderers - Columns - livemint.com

There are nine bodies—all of them young men—that have been lying in a Mumbai hospital morgue since 29 November. They may be stranded there for a while, because no local Muslim charity is willing to bury them in its cemetery. This is good news.
The nine are the Pakistani Muslim terrorists who went on an utterly senseless killing rampage in Mumbai on 26/11, gunning down at least 170 people, including 33 Muslims, scores of Hindus, as well as Christians and Jews. It was killing for killing’s sake. They didn’t even bother to leave a note.
All nine are still in the morgue because the leadership of India’s Muslim community has called them by their real name—murderers, not martyrs—and is refusing to allow them to be buried in the main Muslim cemetery of Mumbai, the 7.5-acre Bada Kabrastan graveyard, run by the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust.
“People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim,” Hanif Nalkhande, a spokesman for the trust, told The Times of London. Eventually, one assumes, they will have to be buried, but the Mumbai Muslims remain defiant.
“Indian Muslims are proud of being both Indian and Muslim, and the Mumbai terrorism was a war against both India and Islam,” explained M.J. Akbar, the Indian-Muslim editor of Covert, an Indian investigative journal. “Terrorism has no place in Islamic doctrine. The Quranic term for the killing of innocents is fasad. Terrorists are fasadis, not jihadis. In a beautiful verse, the Quran says that the killing of an innocent is akin to slaying the whole community. Since the...terrorists were neither Indian nor true Muslims, they had no right to an Islamic burial in an Indian Muslim cemetery.”

 

[jarnee]

Khailstan is finally a reality in India & the world now, Sikhs are less then10% of Indian population, and control or own more then 30 % of the wealth. There is no Poor Sikh. There are huge numbers now migrated mainly to Canada, soon canada may have to change its flag to have bit of Orange in it or replace the maple leave with "Ek-Onkar". Sikhs have done it with will and hard work. Today india has a Sikh PM. What Indira Gandhi did she got what she deserved.
Riots in Delhi were unfortunate. Sikhs took a due revenge also by bleeding India with terrorism for 8 years and blowing up Air India plane. Congress also could not be as powerful as it earlier was. FYI - Khalistan's original maps had Pakistan's Punjab also as its part.

 

[Gabbar]

Khailstan is finally a reality in India & the world now, Sikhs are less then10% of Indian population, and control or own more then 30 % of the wealth.

2.1% of the population to exact. Do you have any links to back-up 30% claim?

There is no Poor Sikh. There are huge numbers now migrated mainly to Canada

Hunderds of farmers commited suicide las year due to loans.

soon canada may have to change its flag to have bit of Orange in it or replace the maple leave with "Ek-Onkar".

 

[DarthVader]

2.1% of the population to exact. Do you have any links to back-up 30% claim?

30% fig is surely from the air...but what do you think there representation regarding wealth holding?

Hunderds of farmers commited suicide las year due to loans.

So in other parts of country. I am not sure if Punjab has suffered more. On the other hand the general notion is that Punjab farmer is far better state in comparison to farmers in other part of India.
Farmer's suicide in India is complex topic and will need its own thread.

I can understand your anger, anguish regarding the 1984 and what happened after that. But I have
to disagree if you mean that Sikhs have been discriminated today.

 

[paritosh]

@all the indian members slogging their a$$-off in trying to justify bluestar...
amigos...in a democracy like ours...one wrong move even if implied with good intentions...is labeled as "horribly bad"...and one of those "could have been avoided" types.
not many would support Godhra,babri,mumbai blasts '91,the khalistani air-india blasts,Samjhota...
the perpetrators of the above mentioned crimes also had good motives...but they killed many innocents...so while bluestar could have been avoided/was unavoidable....it was a big mistake...because the end-game went wrong.
"violence brings more violence and peace is through humility"...said Gandhi ji

 

[vsdoc]

I dont think there was anything wrong with Bluestar.

In fact, it was a last resort forced upon the government by militant separatists defiling the sanctity of a holy place by setting up armed positions and war control centers within. A sovereign nation reserves the right to without mercy squash any danger to its integrity - foreign or domestic. Period. There is nothing for any Indian to be either ashamed about or to try and justify.

Yes, what happened in Delhi to the Sikhs was wrong, and as a nation we are and should be sorry for that.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Gabbar]

I dont think there was anything wrong with Bluestar.

In fact, it was a last resort forced upon the government by militant separatists defiling the sanctity of a holy place by setting up armed positions and war control centers within. A sovereign nation reserves the right to without mercy squash any danger to its integrity - foreign or domestic. Period. There is nothing for any Indian to be either ashamed about or to try and justify.

Yes, what happened in Delhi to the Sikhs was wrong, and as a nation we are and should be sorry for that.

Cheers, Doc

So do you think government couldn't cut of water, electricity, food and communication and negotiated? Did they have to attack on the holiest day on thei Sikh calander when thousands of devotees were there hence causing thousands of innocent deaths? Sir when Babri masjid was destroyed, where was the goverment and where was thier "national" integority?