Only 3 ASEAN States at US Democracy Summit? Not Bad, Say Analysts

[Indos]

This lecture from Indonesia Finance Minister, Sri Mulyani, can make people understand about Indonesia transformation from authoritarian into democracy. She talked about institution reform, corruption, freedom, some understanding about the democratic movement in 1998, etc. This was about 7 years ago when she was still serving as World Bank Managing Director

 

[Brainsucker]

This lecture from Indonesia Finance Minister, Sri Mulyani, can make people understand about Indonesia transformation from authoritarian into democracy. She talked about institution reform, corruption, freedom, some understanding about the democratic movement in 1998, etc. This was about 7 years ago when she was still serving as World Bank Managing Director

Btw, Are you a politician who active in a political party? If so, what party are you? You seem understand deeply about Indonesian politic. And the way you explain is more deeply than ordinary people who like politic.

 

[Indos]

Btw, Are you a politician who active in a political party? If so, what party are you? You seem understand deeply about Indonesian politic. And the way you explain is more deeply than ordinary people who like politic.

After getting bachelor degree I do join political party, but not an important player. I am not active anymore. What party ? Of course not PDI-P

But I am not fanatics, I will see program as voters. like you, I also dont like populist leaders despite popular policy should not be always seen as negative, anti corruption, infrastructure development, local defense industry development, nationalist economic policy like nationalization of several big oil fields (Mahakam block, Rokan Block), pro local products are all very positive policy that are very popular.

Some populist policy do have negative side for long term economic development like in energy subsidy.

We can see Jokowi doesnt fall into populist trap and this is why he raises electricity price, making Omnibus Law etc but some segment that is really poor gets subsidy and this is a good thing since the policy will be more effective to combat poverty

Talking about Indonesian politics, it can be deeply understood if we have passion on politics. Passion leads us to have time to read and watch. I have read newspaper like Kompas and magazine like Tempo since Elementary school. I also like news.

Burhanudin Muhtadi is one of the political analyst that I recommend to understand better about Indonesian politics.

 

[vi-va]

Well, my definition of democracy is :
Government based on popularity

Popularity is an ambiguous concept.

Popularity can be manufactured by ideology, media, propaganda, and so on. Just look like how US manufactured consensus on Iraq Weapon of Mass Destruction.

If you do use popularity as the definition of democracy, liberal democracy may fit in, as long as rampant populism is acceptable.

 

[Indos]

To win an election in Indonesia, popular policy is not enough. It has been proven since first direct election in 2004. This I will give 4 main points to win Presidential Election in Indonesia according to my observation for the past 16 years of Indonesia direct Presidential election.

1. Having good track record ( successful businessmen, good education degree, previous extraordinary working history, etc)
2. Good programs
3. Clever and it can be seen through their debate performance
4. Having charisma and mentality very strong, debate can expose this quality

People who have chosen Jokowi will not likely change side in the next election despite he made unpopular policy in economic sector like reducing subsidy etc. People do understand the necessary of bitter pill policy like Omnibus Law, reducing subsidy etc If the government explain the bitter pill policy to the people clearly. Populist leader that will give all populist things to the people will be regarded as weak and not a responsible leader (party).

The segment in Indonesia society that is not fanatic and see program and performance as first parameter to pick leader will be the group that will be very important to determine the election result. Education is important to widen this group base and political analyst and journalist are also responsible to create this kind of segment in our society

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The reason US democracy can still produce troubled leaders like George Bush Junior and Trump is because their democracy is not based entirely on popular votes system, but also electoral college system that favor some state that has tendency to vote for Republican.

If popuar votes is the system in US Election then George Bush Junior will be replaced by Jhon Kerry and Donald Trump will be replaced by Hillary Clinton.

 

[Brainsucker]

Popularity is an ambiguous concept.

Popularity can be manufactured by ideology, media, propaganda, and so on. Just look like how US manufactured consensus on Iraq Weapon of Mass Destruction.

If you do use popularity as the definition of democracy, liberal democracy may fit in, as long as rampant populism is acceptable.

Actually many leaders from democracy country need to be popular in order to be known by their people. And of course, their popularity is manufactured by media, paid propagandists in the internet, and bribery. And if they're already become a public servant, They'll throw a populist programs to gain voters. Or call journalists to write many articles about them.

Have you ever heard that many political leader bribe their people to vote them, and it work like wonder? Of course, not all people can be bribed by them. Some even made a slogan "Take the money, but vote the other". A popular slogan in my country some years ago.

They usually use a trick like giving a neighborhood some donation. Like helping the people with making a public toilet, or making a well, or other things. And get paid by the people (for that neighborhood) their consent to vote him / her. That still good. Other politicians even blatantly giveaway their money to the people to get vote. We call it as "Serangan fajar / Sunrise attack". As this bribery often happen at the morning of the election day.

 

[MultaniGuy]

ASEAN is clearly sick and tired of US white man supremacist world order bullsh1t

Hopefully. That is where I agree with you.

Dont be foolish to think this forum is really talking about democracy. Its a sheep skin on wolf summit trying to continue the legacy of US imperialism. If Indonesia really attends, it show Indonesia is in cahoot with US imperialism.

You think its something proud to be invited by this bogus summit? US want those attendee to continue wager their tail for US order. Those countries not invited are real righteous countries who control their own destiny rather than follow US order blindly.

Everyone in the Middle East is sick and tired of American imperialism.

 

[vi-va]

Actually many leaders from democracy country need to be popular in order to be known by their people. And of course, their popularity is manufactured by media, paid propagandists in the internet, and bribery. And if they're already become a public servant, They'll throw a populist programs to gain voters. Or call journalists to write many articles about them.

Have you ever heard that many political leader bribe their people to vote them, and it work like wonder? Of course, not all people can be bribed by them. Some even made a slogan "Take the money, but vote the other". A popular slogan in my country some years ago.

They usually use a trick like giving a neighborhood some donation. Like helping the people with making a public toilet, or making a well, or other things. And get paid by the people (for that neighborhood) their consent to vote him / her. That still good. Other politicians even blatantly giveaway their money to the people to get vote. We call it as "Serangan fajar / Sunrise attack". As this bribery often happen at the morning of the election day.

Bribing the voters is very common in developing countries, especially in India. The donors of candidates donate bikes, or sewing machine to buy votes in India publicly. Developed countries did the same thing, but not that explicit, they will use welfare, infrastructure, subsidies, investment, open factories, and so on.

Nothing is free. The donors of senators/representative will be awarded by contracts, important position in government. This is purely corruptions. Money and politics in liberal democracy is a disease that there is no cure.

US in past 15 years changed significantly, that I can't recognize anymore. Politicians degenerated a lot, they are slaves of money(they always were), they do whatever needed to win the vote, and follow the instruction of donors once they are elected.

Some smaller European countries tried to constrain the impact of donation, made some progress, but by and large failed.

Once money and politics married, she will give birth to 2 boys. One is called media giant, the other is called interest group. You will never get rid of them.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Nothing to analyse in here.

It is just a wish list for the Biden's Administration on which nations she want to be by her side due to their strategic location to be used in event of a conflict with China for blockade.

Democracy??? Don't make us laugh.



Apart from USA, Russia and China, none of the rest have the capability to defend themselves in a war with any of the mentioned three.

With Russia-China close co-operation and in fact de facto alliance, the US war new adverturism and hegemony is getting nowhere and so it used its usual antics.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

We all know that USN can't block China Maritime vessels at South China Sea and so USN will try to perform a sea blockade will be at the Strait of Malacca.

The idea to to disrupted the flow of food, raw materials and oil to China in event of a conflict between China and the USA.

Now you know why Malaysia and Indonesia is included in these so-called multilateralism manipulated with a title democracy to mislead the ignorant people.

Sullivan and Blinkens are amateur coming to politics and they thinks ASEAN are stupid nations where the people lived in houses atop durian and coconut trees.

 

[Indos]

Democracy is not only about voting right, the separate of executive, legislative, and judicial, but also the civil society work and the media. In Indonesian case, university students will also comes again to the street if something "transactional" happened in Indonesian parliament. We can see huge protest university students when Parliament tried to weaken Indonesia Anti Corruption Body (KPK).

Later the important change that Parliament made to weaken our Anti Corruption Body is revoked by our Constitution Court after Indonesian civil society made the case and brought it into our Constitution Court. Parliament fear with the ability of Indonesian Anti Corruption Body who can tap every body ( including President ) without Court approval.

Overall I see the product of Parliament is not bad, it is because the law in Indonesia is mostly done by Executive where they have professional working for them and Parliament will make necessary change. Executive itself has power in Parliament through coalition they make. Jokowi for instant get more than 70 % support in Parliament through coalition he made and it also include Islamist party like PPP, PAN, and PKB.

Law in economic sector is not bad, like Omnibus Law, although some works need to be done in order for the law to have better democratic process compared to previous process. Civil Society is the one that should be invited during the legislation process in which for Omnibus Law is not the case. This is why our Constitution Court orders government to fix it soon with 2 years period as death line.

Law in Defense also not bad which is very pro local defense industry

The ban of raw material export is also a product of Parliament since 2009
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Some of the influence civil society can be seen on this one and now they are empowered by Youtube channel. so not relies anymore to big TV station to convey their message

Najwa Shihab

We have ICW (Indonesia Corruption Watch) as well

Some of them are employed in Executive like the founder Teten Masduki who is now Jokowi Minister in economic sector

There is another of ICW leader like Febri Diansyah that for some period also work in Indonesia Anti Corruption Body (KPK)

 

[Indos]

Democracy is not only about voting right, the separate of executive, legislative, and judicial, but also the civil society work and the media.

Indonesia Corruption Watch
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indonesia Corruption Watch (ICW) is an Indonesian NGO whose primary mission is to monitor and publicise incidents of corruption in Indonesia. ICW is also heavily engaged in the prevention and deterrence of corruption through education, cultural change, prosecutions and system reform.[1] The organization was formed in Jakarta in June 1998 to prevent corruption in post-Suharto governments.[2]

ICW's work and influence in Indonesia as a major NGO in its field has been recognized and extensively reported on since 1998 by Indonesian and major international news media. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime considers ICW to be "the leading NGO" focused on fighting corruption in Indonesia.[3] The World Bank cites multiple ICW studies in various World Bank published reports and on its website.[4][5] ICW's work and reports have also been cited in hundreds of academic works, books and journals about governmental and societal corruption.

Other recent indications of ICW's notability and influence include a request by the Jakarta Governor Basuki "Ahok" Tjahaja Purnama that ICW monitor the performance of government units under his administration,[6][7] and arrests and reported harassment of ICW staff and activists by Indonesian police officers.[8][9] On September 2, 2015, President Joko Widodo appointed former Indonesia Corruption Watch head Teten Masduki as his new chief of staff.[10]

Indonesia Corruption Watch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Daniel808]

Only 77 people watch the live streaming What a clown forum

https://twitter.com/x/status/1469200830184181763

CNN and BBC will never report this

 

[Indos]

Some Corruption case this latest 6 months alone

Former Minister Juliari Faces 11 Years in Prison for Alleged Graft in Covid-19 Aid Program
View attachment 800152
BY :THE JAKARTA GLOBE
JULY 28, 2021

Former Minister Juliari Faces 11 Years in Prison for Alleged Graft in Covid-19 Aid Program

Earlier this month, another former minister in the Jokowi cabinet was sentenced to five years in jail for corruption.

jakartaglobe.id

The corruption case is first sniffed by Tempo Magazine/Newspaper, a respected Indonesian media with has well known investigative capability. They have made several investigative report about the possible corruption case which started in 7 July 2020.

Democracy is not only about voting right, the separate of executive, legislative, and judicial, but also the civil society work and the media.

 

[comci]

First thing first, Democracy is not about freedom and human right. Democracy is not even about 3 separation of power. As it is actually the cornerstone of a Republic. Basically Democracy is a rule of power based on popularity. We vote somebody to make him/her powerful and rich. At the other side, those men and women who want our vote need to become popular. So they tend to promise many things based on popular demand. And if they want to get vote again, will throw many popular policy that sometime sacrifice the country development course.

Indonesia call themselves a united country. So we won't allow separation of some part of our country.

Democracy is not about freedom and human right? Who taught you constitutiona law and democracy? I mean democracy as according to western standards and not asian style democracy. Ironically you just enforced my conviction that true democracy in asia truly does not exist. Only the ''clone'' version of it.

1. Shariah Islam is the positive law for Aceh province, Muslim and Non Muslim should apply on the law. Deal with it. We are not living in Malaysia.


2. Shariah Islam that is not applied in Indonesian other provinces is only in criminal law. If we insert Shariah Islam into our criminal law through legislation process which is very possible based on our democratic system, then whole Indonesian citizen and resident will be effected on that, Muslim and Non Muslim. Once again, we are not following Malaysian law.

Indonesia Begins Mandatory Halal Certification on Drugs, Cosmetics

Prior to the new regime, halal certification and labeling were conducted solely by the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI).

jakartaglobe.id

3. Corruption is getting smaller in Indonesia. The latest big catch is one of House speaker chairmans

View attachment 800150
Top Lawmaker Azis Syamsuddin Becomes Graft Suspect: Reports
BY :THE JAKARTA GLOBE
SEPTEMBER 23, 2021

Jakarta. House of Representatives Deputy Speaker Azis Syamsuddin has been named a corruption suspect for allegedly bribing an anti-graft investigator, according to local media reports on Thursday.

The news has been widely anticipated since his alleged role was mentioned publicly several times, including in the indictment against the disgraced investigator in July.

The Golkar Party politician has allegedly bribed Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK) investigator Stepanus Robin Pattuju in an attempt to drop graft investigation into budget allocation for the district of Central Lampung, Lampung province, in 2017.

Top Lawmaker Azis Syamsuddin Becomes Graft Suspect: Reports

Azis has allegedly bribed a KPK investigator to drop a case against him and asked a similar favor for a fellow party member.

jakartaglobe.id

Shariah law is a religious law. Religious implies believing in higher something in this case allah, but what about non muslim religion? You can spout non sense and avoid my questions but its ok, just dont pretend Indonesia is a true democratic country compared to western europe, because i can assure you Indonesia will fall flat. You all just enforced my believe that asian countries dont have truly democracy and constituional law. Democracy and constitutiona law on paper (in name only) and not enforce in practice are just a hollow democracy as one can get as the one in Myanmar, North-Korea etc