Indus Pakistan
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The survey confirmed this. The comments on this thread confirm this that most Pakistani's look through thr prism of religion in defining themselves. Ever since the Objective Resolution loser politicians who never offered tangible benefit to the public simply because they were looting the public used Islam as smokescreen. and it worked and is still working. In your face religiousity has gone out of the roof but crime, lawlessness, corruption have just continued to increase. Military dictators having no political traction used Islam to gain legitimacy. It worked.
So after over 50 years of investment in this project it does not surprise me why the average Pakistan thinks the way he does. Actually as one poster mentioned I am surprised that 27% put Pakistan first. However those who define their identity as Islam are contributing to the chaos in Pakistan.
When you define a state in religious terms you invite the Mullah to the front. Think about this. Religion is the forte of Mullah's. So in effect you are empowering the Mullah. When you define Pakistan in religious terms your inviting the Mullah to get involved in the bussiness of the state. Well boy you got what you wanted today. Notice how the Mullah has influence on everything.
Over time the state has vacated ground to Mullah. Today Mullah's influence everything. They can at a drop of hat declare a fatwa that overrules the state. The problem is unlike Iran where all the Mullah's are like a organized mob ours in Pakistan are divided into dozens of brands. When you define Pakistan in religious terms you invite dozens of religious brands to bring their disunity into running of the state. You see the predicatble result as differant religious factions fight it out on the streets. TTP have taken the religious conviction to another level. They have no respect for the Pakistani state simply because they do not regard it as Islamic. Therefore they are a natural conclusion of the religious identity. Those who want religion in public life should be supporting TTP. After all they are 100% invested in Islam to the point wher they will die for it. For them this is a jihad create true Islamic state.
The reason why most of the Pakistan urban class harbour pro Mullah tendancies but don't support the TTP is simple. They are "fashion Muslim's". In other words they will talk the talk but will not walk the walk simply because it is one thing to talk but if TTP ever took control then they would make Pakistan a true Islamic citadel. We saw that in Afghanistan. Every Mullah if given a chance would create such primitive society. In fact I wish Pakistan got a dose of proper Mullah rule. That would teach these "fashion Muslim's" sobering realities.
Look to even begin with the entire idea of state is modern construct. That alone goes against what the Mullah thinks. You guy's already know majority of the clergy opposed creation of Pakistan. Was Jinnah a Mullah? Nobody is saying here to give up Islam. All I am saying is de- link it from the state. Make it your private affair. Instead of making Islam a tool for show and power grab why not use it to focus on your inside. Pray. Be better human being. There are millions of Muslim's living in the West. Are they not Muslim's? Are they not able to be good Muslim's?
Those who want Pakistan state to be involved in religion need to ask this question. Is the Muslim state neccessary to be a good Muslim? If yes than what your saying is all those Muslim's living in the West need to move back to countries where Islam is offiicial religion or their faith will be compromised. If you believe this then you should be imploring them all to come back lest their faith be compromised. I have said this 100s of times but will say it again. A Muslim living in the West (where 95% are not Muslims) is fine but a Muslim living in Pakistan (where 95% of his compatriots are Muslim) needs the state to reinforce his faith. This does not make any sense.
What I find annoying is all the people here who cry on about Islam and insist that is the defining quality in their life will have later be screaming to throw out Muslim refugees. Is that not hypocracy? I mean if you really believed this claptrap yourself then you would allow any Muslim from anywhere settle here no question's asked? Where does Islam categorize Muslims into two castes? One group can live in Pakistan and another can't. The mere fact that Pakistani citizenship is not based on being a Muslim disqualifies all the rubbish that has been spouted on this thread. If you guy's are "Muslim" first well bloody act on it. If a Nigeran Muslim, A Afghan Muslim, a Burmese Muslim comes here. Ask them one thing. A2re you Muslim? If they are give them Pak citizenship and prove that this is abode of Muslims otherwise known as Pakistan.
Sreriously? Those who put Muslim first. What would you do if one of Muslim's I mentioned came to you. He said "brother I am Muslim". I want to citizenship of a land that puts "Muslim's first". What would you do. "Oh yeh I am Muslim first but no on this occasion I will be be Pakistan first and throw you out"? You know if you looked deep inside only as Muslim you would be obligated to help him to live here. What happens though. Mr Muslim (Pak) throws Mr Muslim(Afghan) out. Suddenly the suffix becomes "first" and the "Muslim" second. Hypocracy
Forget about the moral contradictions and self cheating going on here. There is another practical aspect to this. Pakistan's have pretty well frigged their relationship with the West and America. Pakistan is now increasingly looking to the new hope from the east. China with it's CPEC.
I looked at CPEC in another thread and concluded that it's success would be dependant on how average Pakistan acts with China. In other words for CPEC to succeed it would require millions of Chinese to come to Pakistan as traders, businessmen and tourists. The real CPEC is not concrete, tarmac, steel, bridges, tunnels. Those are just physical enablers for movement of people, ideas and human linkages which is what business is all about. Just check out any business hub of the world like Hong Kong, London, Dubai or even Mumbai.
You will see millions of people arriving at those airports from every corner of the earth of every culture on earth. That is a sign of trade hub. I have been to Islamabad airport and all you will see is ex pat Pakistani's like me, some workers from ME and few businessmen. Compare that to trade hub. Pakistan will never be a economic corridor except corrodor for Jihadi's from across the world. Ever wondered why jihadi's love Pakistan so much?
If Pakistan keeps these type of attitudes the Chinese will tire of Pakistan like Westerners already have and will head to West, Africa or even India as they already are. There are many Chinese members here. why not ask them?
With thinking like what is so in display here I have my doubts about CPEC. This type of think only encourage Mullahs to peddle what their wares. Religious wars and rivalry. However expect Pakistani state to start chjanging direction from the one it has been sailing for in the last 60 years, Notice how Pak Army suddenly has got tough on TTP and other religiouys groups. I think as more billions are invested in Pakistan by Chinese they are going to start demanding Pak to sort out this religious madness. The Chinese will never get it their way 100% like they are sorting out the Uhgiur Muslims in Western China but still they will push. Interesting times ahead.
And those who have interacted with Chinese will realize they may have differant eyes but they are more Western than Westerners themselves. We know what rampant religion can do with our relationship with Chinese. Lal Masjid incident was example of this. After all the madaris student's were only being Muslim first in capital of the Muslim first city - Islamabad.
"Students continued to occupy the library and challenge governmental control by raiding a brothel.[15] They also kidnapped ten Chinese nationals"
Chinese expression of concern and unhappiness over the failure of the police to prevent the kidnapping of six Chinese women by the students of its girls’ madrasa and over the slanderous campaign of the Masjid projecting Chinese women working in Islamabad as prostitutes made him act immediately and order a commando raid into the Masjid on July 10, 2007."
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lal_Masjid
Thus far Pakistan and China friendship has been long distance relationship. With CPEC looming large it is about to get personal. We will see how one of the most athiest people on earth who live for today collide with people who dribble religion at ever turn. Either the Chinese will bring profound change or CPEC will just remain concrete and steel. Rusting away.
Link > https://defence.pk/threads/cpec-theoretical-and-practical-dimensions.428714/
Today millions of Chinese are on the move. Before American's, British and Europeans used to be dominant at any airport in the world. They still are but now increasingly Chinese are taking over. Go to any major airport and you will see Chinese thronging everywhere with most countries actively encouraging these vistors as they spend billions of dollars. Here is typical airline route map. Notice Pakistan is a the bottom of the list. Only Chinese who come to Pakistan are those who have no choice.
Why is this so? Is there something wrong with the soil in Pakistan. No it is our attitudes that puts people off.
So after over 50 years of investment in this project it does not surprise me why the average Pakistan thinks the way he does. Actually as one poster mentioned I am surprised that 27% put Pakistan first. However those who define their identity as Islam are contributing to the chaos in Pakistan.
When you define a state in religious terms you invite the Mullah to the front. Think about this. Religion is the forte of Mullah's. So in effect you are empowering the Mullah. When you define Pakistan in religious terms your inviting the Mullah to get involved in the bussiness of the state. Well boy you got what you wanted today. Notice how the Mullah has influence on everything.
Over time the state has vacated ground to Mullah. Today Mullah's influence everything. They can at a drop of hat declare a fatwa that overrules the state. The problem is unlike Iran where all the Mullah's are like a organized mob ours in Pakistan are divided into dozens of brands. When you define Pakistan in religious terms you invite dozens of religious brands to bring their disunity into running of the state. You see the predicatble result as differant religious factions fight it out on the streets. TTP have taken the religious conviction to another level. They have no respect for the Pakistani state simply because they do not regard it as Islamic. Therefore they are a natural conclusion of the religious identity. Those who want religion in public life should be supporting TTP. After all they are 100% invested in Islam to the point wher they will die for it. For them this is a jihad create true Islamic state.
The reason why most of the Pakistan urban class harbour pro Mullah tendancies but don't support the TTP is simple. They are "fashion Muslim's". In other words they will talk the talk but will not walk the walk simply because it is one thing to talk but if TTP ever took control then they would make Pakistan a true Islamic citadel. We saw that in Afghanistan. Every Mullah if given a chance would create such primitive society. In fact I wish Pakistan got a dose of proper Mullah rule. That would teach these "fashion Muslim's" sobering realities.
Look to even begin with the entire idea of state is modern construct. That alone goes against what the Mullah thinks. You guy's already know majority of the clergy opposed creation of Pakistan. Was Jinnah a Mullah? Nobody is saying here to give up Islam. All I am saying is de- link it from the state. Make it your private affair. Instead of making Islam a tool for show and power grab why not use it to focus on your inside. Pray. Be better human being. There are millions of Muslim's living in the West. Are they not Muslim's? Are they not able to be good Muslim's?
Those who want Pakistan state to be involved in religion need to ask this question. Is the Muslim state neccessary to be a good Muslim? If yes than what your saying is all those Muslim's living in the West need to move back to countries where Islam is offiicial religion or their faith will be compromised. If you believe this then you should be imploring them all to come back lest their faith be compromised. I have said this 100s of times but will say it again. A Muslim living in the West (where 95% are not Muslims) is fine but a Muslim living in Pakistan (where 95% of his compatriots are Muslim) needs the state to reinforce his faith. This does not make any sense.
What I find annoying is all the people here who cry on about Islam and insist that is the defining quality in their life will have later be screaming to throw out Muslim refugees. Is that not hypocracy? I mean if you really believed this claptrap yourself then you would allow any Muslim from anywhere settle here no question's asked? Where does Islam categorize Muslims into two castes? One group can live in Pakistan and another can't. The mere fact that Pakistani citizenship is not based on being a Muslim disqualifies all the rubbish that has been spouted on this thread. If you guy's are "Muslim" first well bloody act on it. If a Nigeran Muslim, A Afghan Muslim, a Burmese Muslim comes here. Ask them one thing. A2re you Muslim? If they are give them Pak citizenship and prove that this is abode of Muslims otherwise known as Pakistan.
Sreriously? Those who put Muslim first. What would you do if one of Muslim's I mentioned came to you. He said "brother I am Muslim". I want to citizenship of a land that puts "Muslim's first". What would you do. "Oh yeh I am Muslim first but no on this occasion I will be be Pakistan first and throw you out"? You know if you looked deep inside only as Muslim you would be obligated to help him to live here. What happens though. Mr Muslim (Pak) throws Mr Muslim(Afghan) out. Suddenly the suffix becomes "first" and the "Muslim" second. Hypocracy
Forget about the moral contradictions and self cheating going on here. There is another practical aspect to this. Pakistan's have pretty well frigged their relationship with the West and America. Pakistan is now increasingly looking to the new hope from the east. China with it's CPEC.
I looked at CPEC in another thread and concluded that it's success would be dependant on how average Pakistan acts with China. In other words for CPEC to succeed it would require millions of Chinese to come to Pakistan as traders, businessmen and tourists. The real CPEC is not concrete, tarmac, steel, bridges, tunnels. Those are just physical enablers for movement of people, ideas and human linkages which is what business is all about. Just check out any business hub of the world like Hong Kong, London, Dubai or even Mumbai.
You will see millions of people arriving at those airports from every corner of the earth of every culture on earth. That is a sign of trade hub. I have been to Islamabad airport and all you will see is ex pat Pakistani's like me, some workers from ME and few businessmen. Compare that to trade hub. Pakistan will never be a economic corridor except corrodor for Jihadi's from across the world. Ever wondered why jihadi's love Pakistan so much?
If Pakistan keeps these type of attitudes the Chinese will tire of Pakistan like Westerners already have and will head to West, Africa or even India as they already are. There are many Chinese members here. why not ask them?
With thinking like what is so in display here I have my doubts about CPEC. This type of think only encourage Mullahs to peddle what their wares. Religious wars and rivalry. However expect Pakistani state to start chjanging direction from the one it has been sailing for in the last 60 years, Notice how Pak Army suddenly has got tough on TTP and other religiouys groups. I think as more billions are invested in Pakistan by Chinese they are going to start demanding Pak to sort out this religious madness. The Chinese will never get it their way 100% like they are sorting out the Uhgiur Muslims in Western China but still they will push. Interesting times ahead.
And those who have interacted with Chinese will realize they may have differant eyes but they are more Western than Westerners themselves. We know what rampant religion can do with our relationship with Chinese. Lal Masjid incident was example of this. After all the madaris student's were only being Muslim first in capital of the Muslim first city - Islamabad.
"Students continued to occupy the library and challenge governmental control by raiding a brothel.[15] They also kidnapped ten Chinese nationals"
Chinese expression of concern and unhappiness over the failure of the police to prevent the kidnapping of six Chinese women by the students of its girls’ madrasa and over the slanderous campaign of the Masjid projecting Chinese women working in Islamabad as prostitutes made him act immediately and order a commando raid into the Masjid on July 10, 2007."
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lal_Masjid
Thus far Pakistan and China friendship has been long distance relationship. With CPEC looming large it is about to get personal. We will see how one of the most athiest people on earth who live for today collide with people who dribble religion at ever turn. Either the Chinese will bring profound change or CPEC will just remain concrete and steel. Rusting away.
Link > https://defence.pk/threads/cpec-theoretical-and-practical-dimensions.428714/
Today millions of Chinese are on the move. Before American's, British and Europeans used to be dominant at any airport in the world. They still are but now increasingly Chinese are taking over. Go to any major airport and you will see Chinese thronging everywhere with most countries actively encouraging these vistors as they spend billions of dollars. Here is typical airline route map. Notice Pakistan is a the bottom of the list. Only Chinese who come to Pakistan are those who have no choice.
Why is this so? Is there something wrong with the soil in Pakistan. No it is our attitudes that puts people off.
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Though be careful, given the close proximity of China and Pakistan, in the future, the Chinese can make all Pakistanis sing their own national anthem on a collective and regular basis! 
