On Post Modernism, Charlie Hebdo and European Left

[Lure]

Charlie Hebdo massacre represents the political and ideological infertility of Muslim majority countries. I want to hit hard from the first sentence. No one should expect any sympathy or anything from me. Normally I could have supported (like a European Left Intellectual and tons of other posters here) the idea that radical Islamist movements should not be reconciled with Islam as a whole. Islam is not a monolithic block. This is Islamophobia. If I had supported this, hell, I'd morally and philosphically right again. Than I could have gone back to sleep with the great victory of being philosophically right and winning the argument against Right Wing Europe. Of course while I do that, another 2000 something people would be killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Did you see something weird in the paragraph above? Actually I don't defend myself. European left defends me for me. Not only they produce the arguments to defend myself, they also attack Capitalism and European Right. So hell yeah, it's a good world. 12 people died in Paris, more than 2000 was killed in Nigeria and European Right and Capitalism is the criminal again. So I can go to sleep without any guilt, actually I can go to sleep as a victim.

Thanks to self critisizms of Eurpean Left, I don't even need to think for defending myself. I don't need to think that something is wrong here. West is the main cause of everything. Let's support this with some fancy post modern arguments and call everyone racist who says there is something wrong.

Thanks European Left but I don't wanna be supported by you anymore. I don't wanna be in the ball park when there is this all the hatret coming from the right wing. I wanna face this hatret. After that maybe I can find some motivation to change something in deep down. Maybe I can beat the poltical and ideological infertility and start to come up with some original idea.

Everyone knows that a great majority of Muslims are actually "moderate". There is a thread on this forum about how "moderate" muslims should distance themselves from "radical" muslims. And that thread is most probably started by a Muslim member. Do you know that even the term "moderate" muslim and "radical" Islamist actually coined by Western political environment? Muslim majority countries were not even able to classify themselves with respect to their own religious point of views and West did it for them.

There is a great responsibility for Muslims all around the world. Answer this simple question. "Does my moral values should be imposed to entire society or not?". If your answer is no, please classify yourself as some different sect. I don't know call it we are sect "xyz" and the other ones are not from us. Then -just like protestants did- you can distance youselves from all those barbaric ideas. Go to different mosques. Raise different Imams among yourselves that has different values. Just like protestants had different priests than catholics. Name youselves as something different. We always say Islam is not a monolithic block. Than let's show it to the rest of the World with some strong ground.

Then you won't need to defend youself against this mess with fancy post-modern thesis that has no function in the society but let's you win the argument and go to sleep with a taste of victory. I mean don't you feel qualms of conscience? Well, I do.

@LeveragedBuyout @Nihonjin1051 @usernameless @xenon54 @SouI @TaiShang you can join and share your ideas.

 

[Aepsilons]

Charlie Hebdo massacre represents the political and ideological infertility of Muslim majority countries. I want to hit hard from the first sentence. No one should expect any sympathy or anything from me. Normally I could have supported (like a European Left Intellectual and tons of other posters here) the idea that radical Islamist movements should not be reconciled with Islam as a whole. Islam is not a monolithic block. This is Islamophobia. If I had supported this, hell, I'd morally and philosphically right again. Than I could have gone back to sleep with the great victory of being philosophically right and winning the argument against Right Wing Europe. Of course while I do that, another 2000 something people would be killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Did you see something weird in the paragraph above? Actually I don't defend myself. European left defends me for me. Not only they produce the arguments to defend myself, they also attack Capitalism and European Right. So hell yeah, it's a good world. 12 people died in Paris, more than 2000 was killed in Nigeria and European Right and Capitalism is the criminal again. So I can go to sleep without any guilt, actually I can go to sleep as a victim.

Thanks to self critisizms of Eurpean Left, I don't even need to think for defending myself. I don't need to think that something is wrong here. West is the main cause of everything. Let's support this with some fancy post modern arguments and call everyone racist who says there is something wrong.

Thanks European Left but I don't wanna be supported by you anymore. I don't wanna be in the ball park when there is this all the hatret coming from the right wing. I wanna face this hatret. After that maybe I can find some motivation to change something in deep down. Maybe I can beat the poltical and ideological infertility and start to come up with some original idea.

Everyone knows that a great majority of Muslims are actually "moderate". There is a thread on this forum about how "moderate" muslims should distance themselves from "radical" muslims. And that thread is most probably started by a Muslim member. Do you know that even the term "moderate" muslim and "radical" Islamist actually coined by Western political environment? Muslim majority countries were not even able to classify themselves with respect to their own religious point of views and West did it for them.

There is a great responsibility for Muslims all around the world. Answer this simple question. "Does my moral values should be imposed to entire society or not?". If your answer is no, please classify yourself as some different sect. I don't know call it we are sect "xyz" and the other ones are not from us. Then -just like protestants did- you can distance youselves from all those barbaric ideas. Go to different mosques. Raise different Imams among yourselves that has different values. Just like protestants had different priests than catholics. Name youselves as something different. We always say Islam is not a monolithic block. Than let's show it to the rest of the World with some strong ground.

Then you won't need to defend youself against this mess with fancy post-modern thesis that has no function in the society but let's you win the argument and go to sleep with a taste of victory. I mean don't you feel qualms of conscience? Well, I do.

@LeveragedBuyout You said you don't write unless you're specifically tagged, I guess you might have some ideas about that. It can be some further/deeper aspect of the things that we've discussed yesterday.

@Nihonjin1051 @usernameless @xenon54 @SouI @TaiShang you can also join and share your ideas.

Excellently written, @Lure .

 

[xenon54 out]

Charlie Hebdo massacre represents the political and ideological infertility of Muslim majority countries. I want to hit hard from the first sentence. No one should expect any sympathy or anything from me. Normally I could have supported (like a European Left Intellectual and tons of other posters here) the idea that radical Islamist movements should not be reconciled with Islam as a whole. Islam is not a monolithic block. This is Islamophobia. If I had supported this, hell, I'd morally and philosphically right again. Than I could have gone back to sleep with the great victory of being philosophically right and winning the argument against Right Wing Europe. Of course while I do that, another 2000 something people would be killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Did you see something weird in the paragraph above? Actually I don't defend myself. European left defends me for me. Not only they produce the arguments to defend myself, they also attack Capitalism and European Right. So hell yeah, it's a good world. 12 people died in Paris, more than 2000 was killed in Nigeria and European Right and Capitalism is the criminal again. So I can go to sleep without any guilt, actually I can go to sleep as a victim.

Thanks to self critisizms of Eurpean Left, I don't even need to think for defending myself. I don't need to think that something is wrong here. West is the main cause of everything. Let's support this with some fancy post modern arguments and call everyone racist who says there is something wrong.

Thanks European Left but I don't wanna be supported by you anymore. I don't wanna be in the ball park when there is this all the hatret coming from the right wing. I wanna face this hatret. After that maybe I can find some motivation to change something in deep down. Maybe I can beat the poltical and ideological infertility and start to come up with some original idea.

Everyone knows that a great majority of Muslims are actually "moderate". There is a thread on this forum about how "moderate" muslims should distance themselves from "radical" muslims. And that thread is most probably started by a Muslim member. Do you know that even the term "moderate" muslim and "radical" Islamist actually coined by Western political environment? Muslim majority countries were not even able to classify themselves with respect to their own religious point of views and West did it for them.

There is a great responsibility for Muslims all around the world. Answer this simple question. "Does my moral values should be imposed to entire society or not?". If your answer is no, please classify yourself as some different sect. I don't know call it we are sect "xyz" and the other ones are not from us. Then -just like protestants did- you can distance youselves from all those barbaric ideas. Go to different mosques. Raise different Imams among yourselves that has different values. Just like protestants had different priests than catholics. Name youselves as something different. We always say Islam is not a monolithic block. Than let's show it to the rest of the World with some strong ground.

Then you won't need to defend youself against this mess with fancy post-modern thesis that has no function in the society but let's you win the argument and go to sleep with a taste of victory. I mean don't you feel qualms of conscience? Well, I do.

@LeveragedBuyout You said you don't write unless you're specifically tagged, I guess you might have some ideas about that. It can be some further/deeper aspect of the things that we've discussed yesterday.

@Nihonjin1051 @usernameless @xenon54 @SouI @TaiShang you can also join and share your ideas.

I expressed my opinion in other threads, i have nothing more to add to your post.

One thing thought, i went to Mosque when i was a kid to learn Islamic stuff, everytime we had a 2 weeks break (4-5 times a year) from School, i went to Mosque and had lesson 12h a day about reding Quran, learning about Prophets life, events in Islamic history, the five pillars of Islam etc. etc.

We never learned about Sharia, Jihad, War or whatever in that context, instead the Imams told us to be tolerant, never impose your religious view to others and never justify violance.
One will ask ''then why are so many radical groups in Europe?'' well the thing is not every Mosque is the same, many Mosques have dubious people acting as Imams.
I already mentioned it several times that Turkish mosques in Europe are being watched by Ministry of Religion in Turkey which is also sending state Schooled imams to Europe, i went to many Turkish mosques be it in Europe or Turkey and never heard a Imam preaching radical stuff, we dont need a different sect or religion, we need a controlled education for religious schoolars and Imams.

 

[Lure]

I expressed my opinion in other threads, i have nothing more to add to your post.

One thing thought, i went to Mosque when i was a kid to learn Islamic stuff, everytime we had a 2 weeks break (4-5 times a year) from School, i went to Mosque and had lesson 12h a day about reding Quran, learning about Prophets life, events in Islamic history, the five pillars of Islam etc. etc.

We never learned about Sharia, Jihad, War or whatever in that context, instead the Imams told us to be tolerant, never impose your religious view to others and never justify violance.
One will ask ''then why are so many radical groups in Europe?'' well the thing is not every Mosque is the same, many Mosques have dubious people acting as Imams.
I already mentioned it several times that Turkish mosques in Europe are being watched by Ministry of Religion in Turkey which is also sending state Schooled imams to Europe, i went to many Turkish mosques be it in Europe or Turkey and never heard a Imam preaching radical stuff, we dont need a different sect or religion, we need a controlled education for religious schoolars and Imams.

Well that's the point. Do you feel like you and them do belong to same moral values? Actually your moral values and theirs are completely different and they also contradict. Then how can you and them be in the same sect? You should be called as something different then them to distance youself from them. I mean west did this for us by coining the term "moderate" Islam. Yet still it's something superficial and there are many people -unlike you- who are actually moderate but brainwashed by the wrong Imam and goes into very dark routes.

 

[SouI]

learning about Prophets life

Tell me more about it. Tell me about Aisha please, thankies much.

 

[xenon54 out]

Well that's the point. Do you feel like you and them do belong to same moral values? Actually your moral values and theirs are completely different and they also contradict. Then how can you and them be in the same sect? You should be called as something different then them to distance youself from them. I mean west did this for us by coining the term "moderate" Islam. Yet still it's something superficial and there are many people -unlike you- who are actually moderate but brainwashed by the wrong Imam and goes into very dark routes.

Theres nothing wrong with my sect, its their ideologys thats corrupted, look at the 70's middle east, atmost all muslim countrys were more or less liberal with much more freedom than today, the Iranian revolution was the turning point.

This is Bin Laden family including Osama in 70's

Kabul in 70's

Pakistan in 70's

And many more exsamples.

Tell me more about it. Tell me about Aisha please, thankies much.

Lets not talk about the customs 1400 years ago, it was the same everywhere be it in Europe or Asia not just ME, the topic is about today.

 

[Armstrong]

Well that's the point. Do you feel like you and them do belong to same moral values? Actually your moral values and theirs are completely different and they also contradict. Then how can you and them be in the same sect? You should be called as something different then them to distance youself from them. I mean west did this for us by coining the term "moderate" Islam. Yet still it's something superficial and there are many people -unlike you- who are actually moderate but brainwashed by the wrong Imam and goes into very dark routes.

I don't quite follow !

Whats in a name ? Were the Jews that worked with the SS and the Jews that were slaughtered by the SS not both called 'Juden' ?

 

[SouI]

Theres nothing wrong with my sect, its their ideologys thats corrupted, look at the 70's middle east, atmost all muslim countrys were more or less liberal with much more freedom than today, the Iranian revolution was the turning point.

This is Bin Laden family including Osama in 70's

Kabul in 70's

Pakistan in 70's

And many more exsamples.


Lets not talk about the customs 1400 years ago, it was the same everywhere be it in Europe or Asia not just ME, the topic is about today.

I didn't try to be sarcastic. I really want to know about it and you said you learned about his life and stuff.. So, yeah.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Charlie Hebdo massacre represents the political and ideological infertility of Muslim majority countries. I want to hit hard from the first sentence. No one should expect any sympathy or anything from me. Normally I could have supported (like a European Left Intellectual and tons of other posters here) the idea that radical Islamist movements should not be reconciled with Islam as a whole. Islam is not a monolithic block. This is Islamophobia. If I had supported this, hell, I'd morally and philosphically right again. Than I could have gone back to sleep with the great victory of being philosophically right and winning the argument against Right Wing Europe. Of course while I do that, another 2000 something people would be killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Did you see something weird in the paragraph above? Actually I don't defend myself. European left defends me for me. Not only they produce the arguments to defend myself, they also attack Capitalism and European Right. So hell yeah, it's a good world. 12 people died in Paris, more than 2000 was killed in Nigeria and European Right and Capitalism is the criminal again. So I can go to sleep without any guilt, actually I can go to sleep as a victim.

Thanks to self critisizms of Eurpean Left, I don't even need to think for defending myself. I don't need to think that something is wrong here. West is the main cause of everything. Let's support this with some fancy post modern arguments and call everyone racist who says there is something wrong.

Thanks European Left but I don't wanna be supported by you anymore. I don't wanna be in the ball park when there is this all the hatret coming from the right wing. I wanna face this hatret. After that maybe I can find some motivation to change something in deep down. Maybe I can beat the poltical and ideological infertility and start to come up with some original idea.

Everyone knows that a great majority of Muslims are actually "moderate". There is a thread on this forum about how "moderate" muslims should distance themselves from "radical" muslims. And that thread is most probably started by a Muslim member. Do you know that even the term "moderate" muslim and "radical" Islamist actually coined by Western political environment? Muslim majority countries were not even able to classify themselves with respect to their own religious point of views and West did it for them.

There is a great responsibility for Muslims all around the world. Answer this simple question. "Does my moral values should be imposed to entire society or not?". If your answer is no, please classify yourself as some different sect. I don't know call it we are sect "xyz" and the other ones are not from us. Then -just like protestants did- you can distance youselves from all those barbaric ideas. Go to different mosques. Raise different Imams among yourselves that has different values. Just like protestants had different priests than catholics. Name youselves as something different. We always say Islam is not a monolithic block. Than let's show it to the rest of the World with some strong ground.

Then you won't need to defend youself against this mess with fancy post-modern thesis that has no function in the society but let's you win the argument and go to sleep with a taste of victory. I mean don't you feel qualms of conscience? Well, I do.

@LeveragedBuyout You said you don't write unless you're specifically tagged, I guess you might have some ideas about that. It can be some further/deeper aspect of the things that we've discussed yesterday.

@Nihonjin1051 @usernameless @xenon54 @SouI @TaiShang you can also join and share your ideas.

Well put, and my thinking aligns with yours on this issue. We've discussed this a bit in the other thread, and many threads here (especially by our friend @Norwegian ) that Islam needs its own Reformation. Not because the Quran itself is problematic, but because with Islam's current monolithic structure, average Muslims often don't have the space to distance themselves from the radicals without being branded apostates or what not. The silent majority needs a way out, but they don't have it right now (other than secularism).

I liked the direction of your article for another reason. Muslim radicals and the Left have created a toxic alliance (with the radicals fulfilling the Left's token fetish for visible multiculturalism, and the Left apologizing on behalf of radical Muslims, "because we're all equal"). I strongly believe that "moderate Muslims" should ally with the center right to take control of the problem. They complement each other well: both want social stability, both want rule of law, both want assimilation, and both oppose some of the worst excesses of liberal society.

Unfortunately, the Leftist media has poisoned the center right (center right) in the eyes of too many mainstream Muslims, and they feel that they must support the Left for protection from the "jackbooted fascist Right." Just like there is not a monolithic bloc of Muslims, there is also not a monolithic bloc of Right-wingers, and I truly believe that mainstream Muslims and the center-right are a prefect fit. Muslims can provide cover to the right against accusations of bigotry, and the Right can overcome the Leftist amoral neglect of the radicals in the Muslim communities, and do what it takes to clean up the community.

Let's get it done, and save society for all of us before this gets further out of hand.

PS: To clear up any potential misunderstanding, my comment about not writing without getting tagged is not a petulant attempt to get attention. I just prefer to lurk on PDF these days, but out of courtesy, I feel compelled to respond when someone addresses me directly.

 

[xenon54 out]

I didn't try to be sarcastic. I really want to know about it and you said you learned about his life and stuff.. So, yeah.

I wont and there is a very good reason not to do so, i dont know how familiar you are with PDF but theres no turning back once you open pandoras box, you should do your research by yourself, there are plenty of sources in Internet, i want this discussion to stay civil, though it might be too late already.
Its offtopic anyway.

 

[TaiShang]

It seems the issue is deep-seated and historical -- unlike some who believe that the "Islam problem" of today is one of geopolitical, that is, colonialism, wars, interventions, drones, and all that.

I no longer believe in that line of argument.

The world has an Islam problem because, in addition to many other minor reasons,

1). from the 7th centuries on (soon after the Prophet's death), it locked itself into a political situation where religion is used as a main source of legitimation. The Arabic word "reaya" (those who are being shepherd) took a central line in political thinking. The over-politicized religion soon created a version of brotherhood that recognized neither geographical, nor cultural, linguistic, and climatic differences -- hence the idea of ummah that, for example, regardless of climate and local customs, condemns Muslim woman into one common form of clothing, and,

2. from the 10th centuries on, philosophy has been condemned and ration has been replaced with "revelation," and "intuition." From this, there emerged masses that followed certain imams (or leaders) with no particular critical reasoning of their own. Against the enlightening teachings of the great scholars such as Al-Azzam, reactionaries such as Al-Ghazzali achieved upper hand and, brace for it, the political establishment stood by the reactionaries while condemning and silencing the liberationists/rationalists.

Hence you have the picture today where in daylight in London, mainstream (I will not call them radicals; they are indeed the silent mainstream who get radicalized at the first instance) Islamists decapitates a person.

Why do we have these people in greater numbers today? The answer is, in my opinion, is the emergence of ISIS. This organization may be considered a bunch of ragtags, but in fact they represent something bigger. Something that had been lurking in the minds and hearts of the large swaths of the Islamic world: A land of our own where the rules of the revelation (not of the modern society) rein supreme. The ISIS has become an embodiment of this "sleeping" dream and gave it a certain dose of vitality. What are the potential of ISIS in the Islamic world? I would say no less than a quarter, which makes them a majority because the Islamic world is otherwise pretty much fractioned. When ISIS becomes the mainstream (along with even a larger number of Muslim apologists who, for example, say, "well, they should not have insulted the Prophet, although I do not support the killing"), you end up with this kind of attacks, which are much more deadly in an open society. China experienced similar mass-slaughters, as well.

Then the solution, in my view, is a deep and coercive reformation. And no body is a better example to a comprehensive Islamic reformation than the founder of Turkey, the great revolutionary of the 20th century, Ataturk. His project has never been completed because he died too early, but his method and partial success is still out in the open for us to see: Reform the religion by taking the power of interpreting religious decrees from the hands of the select few, impose strict dress code, secularize national education and destroy all madrassa style schools. There might be additional precautions such as: impose sanctions on the wildest and most destructive regime and sponsor of terror, Saudi Arabia, outlaw Islamic Brotherhood, liberate women etc.

Easier said than done. But that is, in my view, the only way to solve the Islam problem -- unless you do not wish a length and bloody reformation that might take several generations. Turkey's founder managed to achieve impressive results in a mere few decades, no need to wait for one or two centuries. There is historical example. The Islam problem is solvable not in Paris or London or Beijing, but right in the Middle East. Band aid solutions will not help.

 

[usernameless]

Charlie Hebdo massacre represents the political and ideological infertility of Muslim majority countries. I want to hit hard from the first sentence. No one should expect any sympathy or anything from me. Normally I could have supported (like a European Left Intellectual and tons of other posters here) the idea that radical Islamist movements should not be reconciled with Islam as a whole. Islam is not a monolithic block. This is Islamophobia. If I had supported this, hell, I'd morally and philosphically right again. Than I could have gone back to sleep with the great victory of being philosophically right and winning the argument against Right Wing Europe. Of course while I do that, another 2000 something people would be killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Did you see something weird in the paragraph above? Actually I don't defend myself. European left defends me for me. Not only they produce the arguments to defend myself, they also attack Capitalism and European Right. So hell yeah, it's a good world. 12 people died in Paris, more than 2000 was killed in Nigeria and European Right and Capitalism is the criminal again. So I can go to sleep without any guilt, actually I can go to sleep as a victim.

Thanks to self critisizms of Eurpean Left, I don't even need to think for defending myself. I don't need to think that something is wrong here. West is the main cause of everything. Let's support this with some fancy post modern arguments and call everyone racist who says there is something wrong.

Thanks European Left but I don't wanna be supported by you anymore. I don't wanna be in the ball park when there is this all the hatret coming from the right wing. I wanna face this hatret. After that maybe I can find some motivation to change something in deep down. Maybe I can beat the poltical and ideological infertility and start to come up with some original idea.

Everyone knows that a great majority of Muslims are actually "moderate". There is a thread on this forum about how "moderate" muslims should distance themselves from "radical" muslims. And that thread is most probably started by a Muslim member. Do you know that even the term "moderate" muslim and "radical" Islamist actually coined by Western political environment? Muslim majority countries were not even able to classify themselves with respect to their own religious point of views and West did it for them.

There is a great responsibility for Muslims all around the world. Answer this simple question. "Does my moral values should be imposed to entire society or not?". If your answer is no, please classify yourself as some different sect. I don't know call it we are sect "xyz" and the other ones are not from us. Then -just like protestants did- you can distance youselves from all those barbaric ideas. Go to different mosques. Raise different Imams among yourselves that has different values. Just like protestants had different priests than catholics. Name youselves as something different. We always say Islam is not a monolithic block. Than let's show it to the rest of the World with some strong ground.

Then you won't need to defend youself against this mess with fancy post-modern thesis that has no function in the society but let's you win the argument and go to sleep with a taste of victory. I mean don't you feel qualms of conscience? Well, I do.

@LeveragedBuyout You said you don't write unless you're specifically tagged, I guess you might have some ideas about that. It can be some further/deeper aspect of the things that we've discussed yesterday.

@Nihonjin1051 @usernameless @xenon54 @SouI @TaiShang you can also join and share your ideas.

Generally speaking, what should and must change is forming one voice in the islamic world. Look at the pope, he's the representative without political affiliation. On the other hand muslim countries are divided and some leaders and clerics/imams sometimes intermingle a political message through religious speeches and fatwas. Also, look at western countries, in such cases they dont hesitate to rush each other to help while when a terror act happens in a muslim country, majority of the muslim countries seem to be half-sincere or not at all (mere political condemnation). As long as muslim countries themselves dont outline what falls under extremism and dont solve this together, the minor noisy extremists will draw the attention of the world. In the end the islamic world will be the one that must solve this.

Another important thing is education, employment and social development. If you're jobless and/or poor without a good future prospect, and also hate and blame other countries/religions/muslim sects for your misery, joining such extremist groups might feel attractive for such people.

I don't believe that by reading the quran, or any holy scripture for that matter, a person immediately becomes either moderate or extremist. There are many other factors that help shape a person's mind and interpretation. In the case of these extremists, they were/are already hateful towards certain countries/religions etc., already have biases and view their life negatively. Through reading the quran, or any holy scripture, extremists pick the verses they deem useful to justify their act and thought towards others. It can't be vice versa simply because 99% of the muslims apparently don't have suicide bombing intentions after reading the quran. These fundamentalists/extremists, for as long they are recognizable in a society, must be approached in dialog, calm down and must learn the proper interpretation from actual certified imams instead of giving them legitimacy by making them a sect. They must know they are wrong and must be 'pacified'. Unfortunately spotting such (potential) extremists is difficult. But another must is, muslim countries providing certified imams to the EU/US etc. in order to avoid fake/incompetent imams. afaik, in the EU only Turkey does it so far.

@xenon54 explained about the dubious imams already, and it's absolutely true. For example, i once knew a Bosnian who used to come to our mosque every friday. No problem, all was well. However, after no contact for many months, i finally met him again. This time he had differing opinions, often more stricter/fundamentalistic. How come i haven't asked, but i suspect he's been hanging out with the wrong type of people or went adventuring on the internet and landed on shady terrorism supporting sites.

In any case, Muslim countries must develop, educate, provide jobs, control their imams and religious education, and some muslim countries should ban foreign traditions that have nothing to do with islam (burqa, women circumcision).

Foreign intervention and hypocrisy/double standards towards muslim countries should also descrease in order to take away a portion of the reasons that otherwise would have stimulated such (about to be) extremists.

Hope i didn't write vague things, haven't slept.

 

[xenon54 out]

@xenon54 explained about the dubious imams already, and it's absolutely true. For example, i once knew a Bosnian who used to come to our mosque every friday. No problem, all was well. However, after no contact for many months, i finally met him again. This time he had differing opinions, often more stricter/fundamentalistic. How come i haven't asked, but i suspect he's been hanging out with the wrong type of people or went adventuring on the internet and landed on shady terrorism supporting sites.

The same happened in my surrounding, we have many Kosovo Albanian Gypsies in our place and as you know Gypsies are mostly not religious and adapt every religion of their respective countrys.
Those in my place were Muslims since they lived among Muslim but not religious at all, going mostly to Turkish or Albanian Mosques only at Bayrams etc.
After some time they started to go to another Mosque one by one and started talking about religion and i was like well, ok, nice for you.
I heard they were going to a Mosque thats known for its salafi scene and they pay money to their regular visitors such as money for growing beard and such stuff, they started to say that Turks are corrupted and we are doing everything wrong regarding religion, like starting one day later with Ramadan, bla bla.

There is clearly a radicalisation in Europe fund by foreign sources, the goverments here must focus on them and arrest every hate preacher and cut the foreign fundings, as i said no Mosque without a propper liscensed Imam.

 

[Lure]

@TaiShang @LeveragedBuyout
You had similar yet from different angles opinions on this one. I wanna go into this European Left arguments that tries to bring legitimacy towards religious political movements. We've seen this process very clear in Turkey, going parallel with Europe. Turkey has 3 lefts. One of them is the "center left" -at least our own interpretation of center left-, that is mainstream and today this place is filled by CHP as you may all know. Second left is the traditional socialist left. Extremely critical towards any type of religion, this is not mainstream and a great portion of this left is assimilated under BDP(the kurdish party) of course after changing their world views (that's why I've used the term "assimilated"). And the third left is the "liberal left" as they call themselves. They are extremely close to the left in Europe today both in terms of political and philosophical views.

Of course my main topic will be about the "liberal left" in here. First of all they are not mainstream at all. They have extremely limited public support in Turkey. Yet almost all of them are well educated, "connected" people that can actually make a lot of noise in the media and on the streets. In order to concretize I will mention some notable names that are mostly associated with "left liberalism" like Ahmet Altan, Mehmet Altan, Halil Berktay, Murat Belge etc. And of course taraf is a notable newspaper that aligns itself with left liberalism.

Enlightenment philosophers like John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire etc. (sorry to the names that I've forgot to mention) created the backbone of the moral and ethics of modern socities. An example : The term "exclusivity of the public sphere" meaning the public sphere is open to everybody. Of course in their times (mainly from the religious right) they got a lot of objections. But Enlightenment philosophers won and the philosophical road for the "modern age" of the humanity has been opened.

Starting from the early modern critics, philosophers started to question enlightenment values. Nietchze can be the first example that can be regarded as a counter-enlightenment philosopher. General term for the movement is the German Romanticism. Well counter-enlightenment philosophers attacked the ideas of the enlightenment era and that actually paved the road for the post-modern era. To cut it short, anti-enlightenment thesis', and that "development relativism", if I may put it to the right words clearly attacks strongly to the modern ideas. Afterwards post-modern philosophers like Martin Heidegger gives Political Islamist movements the school of taught and thesis that they need in order to win an argument. Left Liberals in Turkey gave Political Islam (AKP today) the ideas and arguments that it was looking forward for years. @xenon54 Those arguments paved the way for the Iranian Islamic Revolution. The ones who has time can read this intro and the ones who has more time can read the whole picture. The book is written by Prof. Ali Mirsepassi from NYU. I mean we've seen the same thesis, same arguments and same everything with Iran when AKP was rising and our beloved Liberal Leftists were striking Kemalist ideology with counter-enlightenment ideas.

Left Liberalism or Eurpean Left -also in US such a left exists- has this counter-enlightenment views. That's why I'm telling this as something extremely important. In Europe's and US' Liberal Left school of thought the same mistake is being done. This mistake actually effects here. Don't ever think that political Islamist policy makers don't follow western school of thought. They always read and brings those ideas in order to create strong expressions against Modern era Ideologies. So European Left should stop supporting us for us because their supports actually creates a lot of side effect that they don't even imagine.

@usernameless
Thanks a lot for sharing the ideas. I definitely agree with the matter about introducing certified Imams. Also for the foreign effects part, well you can just read the text above

 

[Schutz]

It seems the issue is deep-seated and historical -- unlike some who believe that the "Islam problem" of today is one of geopolitical, that is, colonialism, wars, interventions, drones, and all that.

I no longer believe in that line of argument.

The world has an Islam problem because, in addition to many other minor reasons,

1). from the 7th centuries on (soon after the Prophet's death), it locked itself into a political situation where religion is used as a main source of legitimation. The Arabic word "reaya" (those who are being shepherd) took a central line in political thinking. The over-politicized religion soon created a version of brotherhood that recognized neither geographical, nor cultural, linguistic, and climatic differences -- hence the idea of ummah that, for example, regardless of climate and local customs, condemns Muslim woman into one common form of clothing, and,

2. from the 10th centuries on, philosophy has been condemned and ration has been replaced with "revelation," and "intuition." From this, there emerged masses that followed certain imams (or leaders) with no particular critical reasoning of their own. Against the enlightening teachings of the great scholars such as Al-Azzam, reactionaries such as Al-Ghazzali achieved upper hand and, brace for it, the political establishment stood by the reactionaries while condemning and silencing the liberationists/rationalists.

Hence you have the picture today where in daylight in London, mainstream (I will not call them radicals; they are indeed the silent mainstream who get radicalized at the first instance) Islamists decapitates a person.

Why do we have these people in greater numbers today? The answer is, in my opinion, is the emergence of ISIS. This organization may be considered a bunch of ragtags, but in fact they represent something bigger. Something that had been lurking in the minds and hearts of the large swaths of the Islamic world: A land of our own where the rules of the revelation (not of the modern society) rein supreme. The ISIS has become an embodiment of this "sleeping" dream and gave it a certain dose of vitality. What are the potential of ISIS in the Islamic world? I would say no less than a quarter, which makes them a majority because the Islamic world is otherwise pretty much fractioned. When ISIS becomes the mainstream (along with even a larger number of Muslim apologists who, for example, say, "well, they should not have insulted the Prophet, although I do not support the killing"), you end up with this kind of attacks, which are much more deadly in an open society. China experienced similar mass-slaughters, as well.

Then the solution, in my view, is a deep and coercive reformation. And no body is a better example to a comprehensive Islamic reformation than the founder of Turkey, the great revolutionary of the 20th century, Ataturk. His project has never been completed because he died too early, but his method and partial success is still out in the open for us to see: Reform the religion by taking the power of interpreting religious decrees from the hands of the select few, impose strict dress code, secularize national education and destroy all madrassa style schools. There might be additional precautions such as: impose sanctions on the wildest and most destructive regime and sponsor of terror, Saudi Arabia, outlaw Islamic Brotherhood, liberate women etc.

Easier said than done. But that is, in my view, the only way to solve the Islam problem -- unless you do not wish a length and bloody reformation that might take several generations. Turkey's founder managed to achieve impressive results in a mere few decades, no need to wait for one or two centuries. There is historical example. The Islam problem is solvable not in Paris or London or Beijing, but right in the Middle East. Band aid solutions will not help.

It is of course an historical issue, any religion that spreads via conquest will forever be blighted. If people all those years ago decided to be enlightened by Islam and chose freely then I would say its a recent issue, the fact that Islam spread via violence over 1000 years ago by the "prophet" is enough to shut up any person who talks about colonialism, American aggression in modern times etc when the faith you are a part of was founded on far worse violence that spread vast distances.

Reform is necessary, other religions have reformed but with the huge fractures within Islam I think that is not a possibility, its difficult to find any unity within single groups let alone the whole structure of Islam. The problem lies with the fact that Islam flourishes in the poor and uneducated regions, the same with any religion. The poor and uneducated need to be told what to do and to believe their life is more important than their depressing existence supporting their family on a monthly wage that I make in a day, and because of those reasons they get a twisted view of the religion and regardless of it only being a few % of the overall faith thats a big enough number, imagine a few % of America going on a shooting rampage, the nation would fall apart.

Look at Persia, once a separate entity, great empires, fantastic history, now look at it in its name of Iran, crazy Mullahs, lack of anything historically notable in centuries. Thankfully the younger generation there seem to be becoming far more worldly than their predecessors of the "Islamic revolution", you dont really hear much about Iranian terrorists, they are a decent people who even if they remain under the banner of Islam I would gladly accept, much like Turkey, they know that religion isnt everything.

Reform = no chance, the only hope for decent muslims wanting to continue living a good life is the % of muslims who have been taught by most likely Saudi funded nutjobs to get a real education and to realise their errors and for all followers to accept we are in the 21st century in a highly connected world where the fastest mode of transport isnt a donkey.

Ultimately religion is obsolete in the modern world and that is the real problem. When only half of us live in the modern world and the other half live like the rest of us did centuries ago then there will be issues, as they say time heals, and time rids us of our past mistakes but I hope that there is enough time to rid ourselves of all religions before those religions destroy our species.