Obama widening missile strikes inside pak against Anti Pak Insurgents

[fatman17]

concentrate on N and S Waziristan - thats the final frontier - mark my words here! - send drones there on a hourly basis if possible!

 

[roadrunner]

"If one attacks one's own citizens or allies, one needs to take every precaution only the bad guys are hit..."

Not when they enter a compound. That family has done so by invitation. If not, then the father should die with a weapon in his hands or run for the hills with his family. If not, they aid and abet the enemy. Understandable as citizens of Pashtunistan and no longer Pakistan that this may occur.

What kind of gibberish is this? It's not only compounds that are attacked, it is also houses. Then there's the aspect of collateral that occurs in the area.

The drones operate off intel, and that intel is not fullproof, and in many cases appears flawed. There's too many civilian casualties in an open ended series of drone strikes for this to be effective.

We have a right to self-defense and we'll exercise it. You may help or not as you see fit but until attacks cease upon Afghanistan, it's citizens, our allies, and ourselves, we'll do so.

You're simply creating more enemies in Afghanistan by doing so. There's blood relations on both sides of the border.

Reconquer Pashtunistan. Warn your "citizens" that harboring these men put their families and themselves at severe risk. Make clear to your "citizens" that these men are no friends to Pakistan.

Lol. No wonder you guys lose all your wars. You've got no intelligence S-2. I doubt you even know the true basics of warfare.

Too many targets "cordoned" after attacks by militants to be missing much. You're a fool to live in FATA and allow yourself to be within 100 meters of these men at any time.

Some people have no choice but to live in FATA. I wouldn't willingly give up my homeland either.

 

[S-2]

"No wonder you guys lose all your wars."

I feel sooooo defeated. Wasn't there once an E. Pakistan? Look at us. Look at you. Who's losing their way to the top quicker?

"Some people have no choice but to live in FATA. I wouldn't willingly give up my homeland either."

Then fight for it or consider yourself in alliance with those that have seized your homeland. FATA is no longer Pakistani in anything but names printed on maps. Do you think that your army can simply drive into it's towns and stay 24 hours without a shot fired, man killed, battle breaking out here, there...eventually everywhere.

"Then there's the aspect of collateral that occurs in the area."

What's adequate? How many? How few? 200 died from PREDATOR estimated in 2008 in Pakistan. How many targets? How many "innocents"? How many "innocents" weren't actually so innocent?

How many died in Afghanistan at the hands of these men in the interim? How many died in Bajaur at the hands of these men and your army in the interim? How many have died in SWAT in the interim. Korrum, Khyber. There's no crime for collateral.

When these men come-fight or run but don't hang around.

 

[roadrunner]

FATA isn't Pakistani? Since when?

According to the Pakistani Consitution, FATA is Pakistani.

As for the civilian casualties. The Pakistani Armed forces must not behave like you guys is my point. You don't care how many innocent people are blown up. Pakistan Army needs to pay attention to reducing its civilian casualties as much as possible.

 

[S-2]

"You don't care how many innocent people are blown up."

Horsecrap. A total of 2000 plus civilians died in Afghanistan last year, as estimated by the U.N. 1300 plus were by the hands of the taliban. 800 plus died by actions taken by ISAF. 500 plus of those killed were by airstrike.

Sad and brutal but Afghanistan is hardly an open carnage house of slaughter. Probably far more died in Pakistan last year at the hands of your own army than 2000 people.

We do care. We monitor these matters closely and recognize the need to do everything possible to limit these incidents as well as the reasons why that's important. We publically apologize when wrong and make compensation immediately, however inadequate that is to the loss of family. We're hardly hiding from our faults though.

We also recognize that our enemy does all he can to exacerbate these incidents by failing to wear distinguishing uniform and insignia and using the facilities, homes, and mosques of all-supporters and those who don't.

If we didn't care either Afghanistan wouldn't exist or you'd see ARCLIGHT raids along the Durand Line. There are a lot of levels to which all of this can yet escalate.

 

[roadrunner]

"You don't care how many innocent people are blown up."

Horsecrap. A total of 2000 plus civilians died in Afghanistan last year, as estimated by the U.N. 1300 plus were by the hands of the taliban. 800 plus died by actions taken by ISAF. 500 plus of those killed were by airstrike.

I like your stats

Sad and brutal but Afghanistan is hardly an open carnage house of slaughter. Probably far more died in Pakistan last year at the hands of your own army than 2000 people.

There wouldn't be any war in Pakistan if you didn't let Indian consulates operate in Afghanistan.

We do care. We monitor these matters closely and recognize the need to do everything possible to limit these incidents as well as the reasons why that's important. We publically apologize when wrong and make compensation immediately, however inadequate that is to the loss of family. We're hardly hiding from our faults though.

LOL. You're in denial. US approach to warfare does not change miraculously because you've entered Afghanistan and reformation has occurred. Mai Lai is not a river in Egypt called the Nile

We also recognize that our enemy does all he can to exacerbate these incidents by failing to wear distinguishing uniform and insignia and using the facilities, homes, and mosques of all-supporters and those who don't.

If we didn't care either Afghanistan wouldn't exist or you'd see ARCLIGHT raids along the Durand Line. There are a lot of levels to which all of this can yet escalate.

This is not difficult when you deny all responsibility for civilian deaths and blame it on the Taliban.

"Mistakes by the US and Nato have dramatically decreased public support for the Afghan government and the presence of international forces providing security to Afghans," said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. The report criticises the response given by US officials when civilian deaths occur. Before conducting investigations, US officials often immediately deny responsibility for civilian deaths or place all blame on the Taliban, the report says.

US investigations have been "unilateral, ponderous, and lacking in transparency, undercutting rather than improving relations with local populations and the Afghan government".

Last night the US military announced it would reopen its investigation of an air strike last month in which the Afghan government says 90 civilians, mainly women and children, were killed.
US air power triples deaths of Afghan civilians, says report | World news | The Guardian

 

[Beskar]

concentrate on N and S Waziristan - thats the final frontier - mark my words here! - send drones there on a hourly basis if possible!

While that may sound convenient to us, I'm sure it'll stir up even more retaliation against the Pakistani forces. The need here, is to recognize the Taliban and their influence in the region. We must make sure that we somewhat "Support" them so that they don't fuel a revolution and end up as "Separatists". Their trust needs to be regained so that in the future, our western front is defended by these people.

If I remember correctly, when U.S soldiers from Afghanistan planned to launch a ground invasion into Pakistani territory, local militias and Taliban vowed to defend the region along with Pakistan army and prepared themselves for an offensive. If they can CONTINUE to do so WITHOUT asking for a separate homeland, then It's a win. Drone attacks MUST be stopped. The more they attack, the more these Taliban have a reason to attack our own people and forces.

 

[S-2]

"I like your stats"

Which stats are you using? From one of your likely favorite news services-

UN: Over 2000 Killed In Afghanistan In 2008-Xinhui

The report is fine and reveals UNAMA's findings.

"There wouldn't be any war in Pakistan if you didn't let Indian consulates operate in Afghanistan."

Seriously, you too? Let's get a bit more "think-tankish" here, roadrunner. That is the perogative of the GoA and I'm surprised at you. I know your retort. Save it. GoA's responsibility. If so, I hope they remove your consulates at the same time. That was a very odd and naive reply.

"You're in denial. US approach to warfare does not change miraculously because you've entered Afghanistan and reformation has occurred. Mai Lai is not a river in Egypt called the Nile..."

Really? And what conclusions should I draw about Pakistani pre-dispositions based upon events in E. Pakistan and Baluchistan AFTER My Lai? You draw on a singular event by one platoon to one village that occurred 40 years ago? I think you've a real hate for America to not recognize the abilities of our ground forces these days.

That's fine but it puts you in a distinct and dismissive minority. We're very good at the small unit level but it's another of many areas for which you've no practical ability to dispassionately review.

"This is not difficult when you deny all responsibility for civilian deaths and blame it on the Taliban."

This would be a blatant lie or a case of gross ignorance-

Airstrike Kills 13 Afghanis- Feb. 22, 2009 LA Times

Please read. In case you don't, though-

"The mistaken killing of civilians by foreign forces is a major source of tension between the Afghan government and its Western backers and has also caused a steady decline in public support for the presence of 70,000 foreign troops.

U.S. forces first said the airstrike Monday in the Gozara district of Herat province targeted a wanted insurgent commander and killed as many as 15 militants.

U.S. Brig. Gen. Michael Ryan traveled to the site of the bombing to lead an inquiry. Though weapons and ammunition were found, investigators concluded that only three of the dead were militants and the other 13 were civilians.

'We expressed our deepest condolences to the survivors of the noncombatants who were killed during this operation,' a U.S. military statement quoted Ryan as saying at the site.

'Our inquiry in Herat demonstrates how seriously we take our responsibility in conducting operations against militant targets and the occurrence of noncombatant casualties,' he said."

Here's a second article with B.G. Ryan-

'Precision Strike' Killed 13 Afghan Civilians U.S. Says- NZ Herald[

However painful, we're hardly hiding anything.

How more wrong could you be with your responses?

 

[roadrunner]

The reference to Mai Lai was more of an example of the mentality that does exist within the American armed forces.

Call it racist or whatever (people overuse that word), but Mai Lai was not an isolated incident in Vietnam in the slightest. The only reason it came to recent light was because of Colin Powell's role in it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1298289.stm

 

[lowe1941]

While that may sound convenient to us, I'm sure it'll stir up even more retaliation against the Pakistani forces. The need here, is to recognize the Taliban and their influence in the region. We must make sure that we somewhat "Support" them so that they don't fuel a revolution and end up as "Separatists". Their trust needs to be regained so that in the future, our western front is defended by these people.

If I remember correctly, when U.S soldiers from Afghanistan planned to launch a ground invasion into Pakistani territory, local militias and Taliban vowed to defend the region along with Pakistan army and prepared themselves for an offensive. If they can CONTINUE to do so WITHOUT asking for a separate homeland, then It's a win. Drone attacks MUST be stopped. The more they attack, the more these Taliban have a reason to attack our own people and forces.

Isnt that just cowardice, giving in to intimidaton and extortion...if you go down that road you will never come to the end till you are a slave...

 

[lowe1941]

I like your stats



There wouldn't be any war in Pakistan if you didn't let Indian consulates operate in Afghanistan.



LOL. You're in denial. US approach to warfare does not change miraculously because you've entered Afghanistan and reformation has occurred. Mai Lai is not a river in Egypt called the Nile



This is not difficult when you deny all responsibility for civilian deaths and blame it on the Taliban.

"Mistakes by the US and Nato have dramatically decreased public support for the Afghan government and the presence of international forces providing security to Afghans," said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. The report criticises the response given by US officials when civilian deaths occur. Before conducting investigations, US officials often immediately deny responsibility for civilian deaths or place all blame on the Taliban, the report says.

US investigations have been "unilateral, ponderous, and lacking in transparency, undercutting rather than improving relations with local populations and the Afghan government".

Last night the US military announced it would reopen its investigation of an air strike last month in which the Afghan government says 90 civilians, mainly women and children, were killed.
US air power triples deaths of Afghan civilians, says report | World news | The Guardian

I expect as time goes on the air strikes will become more surgical,,and precise thought I expect the Islamist and Taliban will always scream its civilians, women and children that are being killed,,,but the strikes will continue,,,terrorist and the taliban should learn to live in caves...

 

[roadrunner]

I disagree. The Taliban need re-educating. They were brought up during the Soviet war. The brainwashing from that time needs undoing.

The best way would be to develop the areas. This will take time.

The terrorists, Uzbeks and Arab militants do need to be removed from the region though.

 

[S-2]

"Call it racist or whatever (people overuse that word), but Mai Lai was not an isolated incident in Vietnam in the slightest. The only reason it came to recent light was because of Colin Powell's role in it."

Uh, yeah, it was isolated-AND it's still over forty years, many military engagements since, and at least three iterations of U.S. Army evolutions. It merits no serious discussion and is hardly an accurate portrayal of our forces-but when have you ever allowed the facts to enter your narrative? You know NOTHING of our military culture while posturing as some vaguely described "analyst". We're quite capable of reaping some serious slaughter were that our intent. You must be unaware, though. Not for the first time.

Racist? Again, horsecrap. No more multicultural society than ours. As such, we've our racists but far less likely than many, many others- such as some Asian and African societies that are rather rough by American standards upon one another. Been awhile since we've any pogroms. We've long practice at learning to accept the ways of others within our communities because we live and work with them daily-to include our military. Likely if there are any racists here, it's on your side of the water.

Powell? What's the fact that he once served in that division have anything to do with My Lai or recently? Part of your straw man argument that doesn't support the current reality.

Might try an originally conceived observation some time. Please give some considered thought before offering it here. There are other children reading.

 

[roadrunner]

"Call it racist or whatever (people overuse that word), but Mai Lai was not an isolated incident in Vietnam in the slightest. The only reason it came to recent light was because of Colin Powell's role in it."

Uh, yeah, it was isolated-AND it's still over forty years, many military engagements since, and at least three iterations of U.S. Army evolutions. It merits no serious discussion and is hardly an accurate portrayal of our forces-but when have you ever allowed the facts to enter your narrative? You know NOTHING of our military culture while posturing as some vaguely described "analyst". We're quite capable of reaping some serious slaughter were that our intent. You must be unaware, though. Not for the first time.

Some serious slaughter was reapedin Iraq. You're right, you're well capable of it.

Racist? Again, horsecrap. No more multicultural society than ours. As such, we've our racists but far less likely than many, many others- such as some Asian and African societies that are rather rough by American standards upon one another. Been awhile since we've any pogroms. We've long practice at learning to accept the ways of others within our communities because we live and work with them daily-to include our military. Likely if there are any racists here, it's on your side of the water.

LOL. Not society in general. Though the cannon fodder that carry out the bulk of dangerous operations tend to be. Not that that's out of the ordinary particularly since the enemy usually is dehumanized.

And the degree ofmulticulturism has very little to do with the number of racists within a society. That's another debate though.

Powell? What's the fact that he once served in that division have anything to do with My Lai or recently? Part of your straw man argument that doesn't support the current reality.

Might try an originally conceived observation some time. Please give some considered thought before offering it here. There are other children reading.

The Powell association with Mai Lai was more investigative than operational, but he gave his military a clean record. Early signs of WMD investigations to come later

 

[S-2]

You speak with authority but no fact. Back up the following about our infantry, if you don't mind? I wish to learn the sources of your unusually delusional perspective-

"Not society in general. Though the cannon fodder that carry out the bulk of dangerous operations tend to be. Not that that's out of the ordinary particularly since the enemy usually is dehumanized."

Identify "cannon-fodder" please. I'd like to see your data on the racial composition of the infantry branch of the U.S. Army otherwise I'm calling this utter bullsh!t.

"Cannon-fodder" is associated with throwaway soldiers. We've lost about 4,000 men in seven years of battle in two theatres. About one mid-sized to large W.W.II engagement. Much is invested in their development. These men are hardly cannon-fodder and are cherished by our nation as yours are by you. Tasteless and ignorant is no way to live. I'll look forward to your data, Mr. "know-it-all".

"...he gave his military a clean record."

So he got it wrong. Big deal. Are you claiming "conspiracy"?

"Early signs of WMD investigations to come later..."

That doesn't trouble me. He'd had them. He'd used them. And he wanted more of them. Now Iraq won't have them for the foreseeable future. End of that story-hopefully forever.

The only regret I have is that we over-emphasized them as a threat. He was a regional threat of some considerable importance regardless, IMHO, and needed to go for any number of other excellent reasons...and he indeed is gone.