Obama offers Pakistan enhanced partnership

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Isnt it kind of odd the signs are in English.

If you must ask that, then ask why 70-75% of the billboards in Pakistan are in English?





p.s. i see several signs written in Urdu

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Whether crimes committed by Americans are by state actors or not, how does that absolve any Pakistani of any crime?

Are you trying to imply that 170 million Pakistanis are to blame over the actions of unruly kids (Pakistani AND indian) who decided to wage violence mostly against civilians?

Our culture, our upbringing and our religion ban us from supporting or carrying out such a heinous act.

We Jews say that when Jews are singled out for misdeeds common in many other peoples, that is anti-Semitism - racism.

With all due respect, Senator McCarthy era is long over. Jews in the U.S. are not being "singled out" any more.

AIPAC and other powerful lobby/spin groups are good at turning an anti-zionist (or israel) statement into an anti-semitic one.


I couldn't help but bring this up. I have Jewish friends/acquaintences who agree with me on this.

Similarly, when Americans or Pakistanis are cited that way, that is racism. BUT that doesn't mean that whatever crime was committed should be ignored - especially in matters of war and peace, life and death.

Those who break laws should not be ignored. If Kasab (lone surviving gunman) is found guilty, he should be punished.

Should George Bush be punished for waging war on a country based on a pack of lies?


(it is a matter of war, and peace, life and death -- no?)

You forget that (1) Pakistan and India are antagonists, and (2) Pakistani credibility is low.

1.) ok
2.) your media is misinforming you about anything related to Pakistan. (at least New York Times and Washington Post, which I read on near-daily basis)

Govt. credibility is low; But despite that, we are the only ones serious about fighting terrorism. Are you?

Basically it would be unreasonable for the Indians to trust Pakistan with information that could compromise India's investigation

so then??? How can we follow up on an investigation if they dont provide us with the sufficient information or leads? india wants us to make arrests and do this and do that --based on their orders?

Sorry buddy, we are a sovereign country. We can't do that.

We must not do that.



Interpol expressed satisfaction with Pakistan's cooperation in the investigation. They did express discontent with india's lack of transparency in the investigation.

You know, when Israel or the U.S. accidentally bombs or kills civilians the apology is often made before the facts are confirmed - even if the initial report is false or misleading. Yes, it is irrational (perhaps more accurately "sensational"), but them's the facts, bro'! No "double standard", just the usual unfair standard.

I have nothing personal against the israel, but I can say that based on statistics and history -- israel is expert at the killing of innocent civilians and destruction of private property.

I can see 10,000 more apologies waiting to be disbursed after you use phosphorous and cluster munitions on strongly-populated civilian areas (strongly populated because a lot of those people were driven out of their homes)

Dont even get me started.

Things seem to be moving in the direction of demonstrating that the GoP had no direct command involvement in the Mumbai Massacre. But the initial conduct of the GoP did not serve to convey this to the public, but left the opposite impression instead.

The first thing they said was that non state actors cannot be allowed to change the course of our diplomacy

india was talking about "surgical strikes" and even violated our air space with their aircrafts (which were warded off after PAF acquired target-lock and was ready to fire)

they were travelling the world, smearing Pakistan and making provocative statements.

I think the clearest case made against Pakistan was in David Sanger's book, published last year, that contained the confession by the Pakistani military to U.S. intelligence that they were supporting the Taliban.

I think one of the clearest cases made against india lies in statements made by Gen. McChrystal and one Ehsanullah Aryanzai (Advisor to Afghan Govt.) ---both of whom have said that india is using Afghan soil to conduct anti-Pakistani operations and sabotage.







oh, we won't sleep. Even when we sleep, our eyes are wide open.

 

[Goodperson]

Interesting debate but its not in Sync with thread topic for anyone to participate and deteriorate the thread further.

 

[TalibanSwatter]

Daily Times Editorial

US President Barrack Obama is finally poised to unveil his much awaited revision of Afghan policy in a speech to be delivered at West Point Military Academy, besides being televised on Tuesday evening. While public attention in the US and elsewhere may remain focused on the actual number of additional troops are to be sent, for understandable reasons, those privy to the complexity of the Afghan problem and larger issues concerning the global terrorist threat will be looking for the subtext, spelling out the contours of the US strategy vis-à-vis the tenuous role of Pakistan. In a familiar pattern of sending public messages through media sources, influential US daily Washington Post has published a report on Monday divulging the details of the recent diplomatic efforts in the region over the past few weeks by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and National Security Adviser James Jones.

In a series of telling revelations, the paper reports that the US administration has offered Pakistan an expanded strategic partnership, including additional military and economic cooperation in a bid to “change the nature of US-Pakistan relations”. According to sources, Pakistan has been at the core of a months-long strategy review, which concluded that the long-term consequences of failure with Pakistan might “far outweigh those in Afghanistan”. It is in this perspective that the US is reported to have assured Pakistan of the “enhanced military and civilian efforts in Afghanistan with no early withdrawal”. In a far-reaching shift of diplomatic leverage, President Obama is also reported to have issued a rather blunt warning that the US would not tolerate support for insurgents fighting in Afghanistan by Pakistan’s military and intelligence institutions. In the context of the recent statements by the US Secretary of State and the British Prime Minister to similar effect, it is clear that the American patience is running thin with what many analysts see as “the Pakistani decision-makers’ continued protection of non-state actors as the tools of promoting policy goals.”

The deficit of trust between two key allies in the war against terror dates back to the beginning of the conflict in the autumn of 2001. While the US expected an all-out assault on all forms of religious extremism, the policy makers in Pakistan carved out a careful strategy of duplicity, procrastination and diversion in a bid to safeguard their long-term interests. That the US administration is reported to have specifically named five groups in recent parleys signifies that Pakistan is being asked to preclude the self-assumed distinctions among the Afghan Taliban, Pakistani Taliban, al Qaeda and other jihadi outfits. Given the mood on the ground, it is unlikely that Islamabad will be more attentive to an apparently war-weary US and NATO than it was to a fire-breathing Bush administration eight years ago.

The alternatives are few and fraught with grave dangers. Seemingly, the future military plan will be to corner the Taliban at the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and then deliver barrages of drone aircraft attacks against enemy pockets while continuing the façade of a military and economic alliance with Pakistan. This strategy too is expected to furnish only limited success in a spiralling conflict. Caution in all the possible scenarios remains inescapable. The problem is knotty and needs measured handling, taking into account the nuances and sensitivities of the forces-that-be. Any knee-jerk response may not only be futile, it may actually unleash unforeseen and unintended consequences. *

 

[Solomon2]

as for Hafiz Saeed, if no charges against him are brought up then it is ILLEGAL to prosecute him. We are a sovereign country and our courts can determine whether people shall meet sanctions or not, based on testimony & evidence.

No criticism of Saeed was intended in the article I linked to. The article illustrated the duplicity perpetrated by the Pakistani police, who claimed to be doing so because they were following the orders of their superiors.

Are you trying to imply that 170 million Pakistanis are to blame -

No.

Our culture, our upbringing and our religion ban us from supporting or carrying out such a heinous act.

Islam is what Muslims do. And some people who claim to be Muslims are doing some pretty terrible things. Fairly or not, that is a blight upon all Muslims everywhere.

Jews in the U.S. are not being "singled out" -

I am using induction to make a general statement from a particular one.

Should George Bush be punished for waging war on a country based on a pack of lies?

It seems the lies were not his, but the judgment to act on them was. So IMO it's up to the electorate and the history books to punish him, not any court or terrorist. (While removing Saddam was a big plus for Iraq, nobody grasps the long-term effects yet.)

your media is misinforming you about anything related to Pakistan. (at least New York Times and Washington Post, which I read on near-daily basis)

Media misinformation is a fact of life. It's up to Pakistanis to deal with it.

Some governments are extremely successful in dealing with the media. Consider Saudi Arabia. No one talks about the poverty there, nor about the high life the Saudi royalty leads, far in excess of any Hollywood star.

Govt. credibility is low; But despite that, we are the only ones serious about fighting terrorism. Are you?

I think the U.S. will be completely convinced Pakistan is "serious about fighting terrorism" when it perceives Pakistan has abandoned its terror-supporting policies. To claim the U.S. isn't "serious about fighting terrorism" seems a completely unsupportable stretch to me.

so then??? How can we follow up on an investigation if they dont provide us with the sufficient information or leads?

As I pointed out, local Pakistani police were able to gather their own information just by using media sources as leads.

Interpol expressed satisfaction with Pakistan's cooperation in the investigation. They did express discontent with india's lack of transparency in the investigation.

True, but not relevant on the PR level. I didn't like the stonewalling by India either, but I'm sure they felt they had to examine everything first so the ISI couldn't compromise evidence or sources.

I have nothing personal against the israel, but -

We probably should leave Israel matters to another topic thread, unless it can be related directly.

The first thing they [the GoP] said was that non state actors cannot be allowed to change the course of our diplomacy

That was probably the intent. So the GoP was addressing whoever was supporting the Mumbai Massacre in Pakistan, not the Indians.

Remember, the GoP was trying to reign in the ISI and by implication its rogue operations? The prospect of war with India stopped that process cold and, I think, froze all ISI personnel reassignments.

india was talking about "surgical strikes" -

To take out the terror bases, in case Pakistan did nothing. So a successful investigation and prosecution of the terror culprits and the destruction of their organization will serve to prevent war.

I think one of the clearest cases made against india lies in statements made by Gen. McChrystal and one Ehsanullah Aryanzai (Advisor to Afghan Govt.) ---both of whom have said that india is using Afghan soil to conduct anti-Pakistani operations and sabotage.

Linkys, please.

Interesting debate but its not in Sync with thread topic for anyone to participate and deteriorate the thread further.

I'm trying to steer back to the topic, but it's a heavy gale that blows towards blaming others rather than tacking into prevailing winds...

 

[Halaku Khan]

worth reading....


Jamat-ud-Dawa Chief: A Message To Indians On Mumbai Anniversary - "We sympathize with the victims; never attacked women and children; Indian government is deceiving you"

Amazing.

Just a few days after 26/11 there was an issue of the "Ghazwa Times" saying that 26/11 was a glorious victory for the Mujahids of Islam.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Amazing.

Just a few days after 26/11 there was an issue of the "Ghazwa Times" saying that 26/11 was a glorious victory for the Mujahids of Islam.

Link to that?

And is GT not affiliated with LeT while JuD and HS claims no affiliation with LeT anymore?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No, Pakistan was vilified for appearing to aid and abet such terrorists. PR is so important! I'm sure that Pakistan can recover from this if the GoP and the people of Pakistan put sufficient effort into defeating terrorists and rejecting the system that created them, then such vilification will fade.

PR is not what we are talking about here, but the fact that the GoP did what woudl have been expected of any government.

That's not how the politics works. I feel that for the U.S. or Britain or even India to prove such things publicly and conclusively is a last resort. Especially if they know the GoP was involved. They'd rather poke the GoP into doing so itself - which is what the GoP appears to be doing now, anyway. Doubtless if they felt the GoP wasn't cooperating they'd present more damning proof themselves, but they realize it is part of Pakistan's battle to assert civilian control over the military and its operations.

So essentially your latest excuse for not having any evidence to back up accusations against Pakistan is that 'politics does not work this way'? Lame - the same standard then applies to the decision of the GoP to not make public the evidence illustrating the Indian role in supporting terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA.

No, the fact that the Indians were terrorized excuses their "war hysteria". They are excused for their lack of cooperation because their worry that the ISI will compromise their secret sources within Pakistan. Especially since the Mumbai op may have been carried out by "rogue" ISI officers, and any result that compromised Indian intelligence could then justify this terrorist act and future efforts, thus promoting the pro-terror crowd.

I have already addressed this - if the evidence was so sensitive then the Indians would never have shared the dossiers they did later, hence this line of argument is nothing but a canard to excuse the Indian decision to not cooperate and make it appear that it was Pakistan that was not doing so.

In any case, one cannot expect successful trials and prosecutions without evidence, so if there was no desire to cooperate then there should have been no calls on Pakistan to take any action.

Hey, it isn't "racism" that U.S. officials have greater credibility than Pakistani ones in some matters. That record of credibility - despite any list of past U.S. transgressions - weighs heavily in this matter.

The 'credibility' is all in the mind of the beholder - I see US transgressions, deceit and immorality in conducting foreign policy (examples of which have been provided earlier) as outweighing by far anything Pakistan has done, hence I see no credibility in the US position.

By war, of course! Which is what a proper investigation and prosecution can avoid.

A proper investigation and prosecution cannot not conducted without evidence and information sharing, which the Indians steadfastly refused to do for months.

Possibly. But the GoP handled both the internal and external PR very badly.

The issue of PR is not in question here - the point is that the GoP did everything it should have done and was not in anyway out of line in asking for information and evidence in order to proceed with its investigations.

But the U.S. often pays "compensation" to civilians for casualties, even when it knows the recently dug graves have dead goats, not people, inside. Israel has indeed made apologies for false reports (The al-Dura affair comes to mind.)

The US pays compensation after its investigations are concluded, not merely on the say so of the media, a point you tried to misrepresent by suggesting that the US just cops the blame without any military investigation into the incidents it is accused of perpetrating.

Because each change in a U.S. Administration is a discontinuity, such an argument is not accepted by Americans - nor a lot of non-Americans, I guess. Furthermore, there is a difference between an "honest mistake" and outright deception - even though it doesn't appear that way to some. In Iraq's case, almost every Western intelligence agency believed Saddam had WMDs - but it was both Saddam and his opposition that did the deceiving to make the CIA believe this.

Bush may not have 'deliberately deceived', but his advisers and the US military and intelligence establishment certainly seem to have done so. The argument of 'discontinuity' might be applicable in the context of domestic US affairs, but in terms of foreign policy there is tremendous continuity, as can be seen in the consensus for the most part that Obama's foreign policy marks no radical departure from the Bush years. That continuity in the US establishment in foreign affairs, keeping in mind the deceit and transgressions of the past, do not paint the US in a credible light, certainly not anymore so than Pakistan, except to those with a self serving interest in seeing such fictitious credibility.

I have attempted to demonstrate what MORE the GoP could have done - to your satisfaction, I think.

You have demonstrated what the GoP could have done in going above and beyond what was required of it for PR purposes - you have not illustrated that GoP efforts or the positions it took were flawed in any normative sense -the GoP did what any nation would have done - that is my point.

What matters is that U.S. officials believe it to be true and act on that belief. It's up to Pakistan to change that. I think the past few months indicate that Pakistan has made a good start at doing so.

I am not certain US officials believe it to be true - history would indicate the US officials would not be averse to lying and spreading propaganda to further foreign policy objectives in some fashion.

Sanger's claims remain unsubstantiated as do many others.

And we continue to return to the central question that mirrors yours when confronted with the argument that the Indians are supporting terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA, 'where is the evidence'?

 

[Halaku Khan]

Link to that?

And is GT not affiliated with LeT while JuD and HS claims no affiliation with LeT anymore?

Ghazwa Times is a mouthpiece of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa.

Here is some news from Jan 2009:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
26/11: jamaat-ud-Dawa

The Gates Are Open
www.outlookindia.com

The ban on the JuD has been a farce. It's business as usual.

Amir Mir

Free For All
* UN resolution 1267 imposed sanctions on the JuD, requiring that activists be disarmed. At the JuD HQ, though, gun-toting men move about.
* The JuD took out a public rally in December, protesting against the UN ban. A police convoy accompanied it.
* The outfit’s websites have been closed. But Urdu publication Ghazva continues to be printed, spitting venom against India, Israel, the US.
* JuD spokesman Abdullah Muntazir’s statement of Jan 6 threatened the government with dire consequences. The FBI says Muntazir impersonates as the Srinagar-based LeT spokesman.

***
You are obviously aware of the Pakistan government’s ban on the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) and the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) sanctions against it. So your feeling is that JuD activists must have gone underground, shuddering at the sight of men in uniform. Well, not so fast. Drive down to Muridke, 30 km from Lahore, where the JuD’s sprawling 200-acre headquarters, called Markaz-e-Toiba, is located. Atop its main building flutters the JuD’s black-and-white flag, in defiance of the ban imposed on it. Symbolic, you think, nothing to worry about.

Outside the Markaz, dozens of gun-toting JuD activists stand guard, belying claims that it’s only an educational and medical centre (it houses several schools, colleges and a hospital). The Markaz bustles with activity, and there isn’t a policeman either inside or outside the complex. Away from Muridke, the JuD still continues to run—without any restrictions—its 150 healthcare centres, 10 hospitals, 300 schools and 510 madrassas countrywide.

It was in the second week of December that the government launched a crackdown on the JuD, detaining among others its chief Prof Hafiz Mohammed Saeed and Lashkar operations chief Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi. A month later, the crackdown appears to have come to a halt. In fact, three days after Saeed was placed under house arrest, he was allowed to leave his Johar Town residence in Lahore to offer Friday prayers in a nearby mosque. And though his movement has been restricted now, he hasn’t yet been chargesheeted and is free to see his colleagues.

His son Talha Saeed faces even less restrictions, regularly leading the Friday prayers at Lahore’s Jamia Qadsia mosque, touted as the second JuD headquarters. True to his father’s teachings, Talha continues to spit venom against India, the United States and Israel.

A JuD spokesman, Atiq-ur Rehman, addressing the media after their office was sealed

Not only this, three days after the UNSC sanctions against the JuD, its activists organised a rally in Lahore on December 14. The protest against the UN was led by Yahya Mujahid, JuD’s central secretary, information, and one of the 12 leaders whom the Pakistan government had put under house arrest. Hundreds of JuD activists in over 50 vehicles, including JuD ambulances, drove from Nasir Bagh to the Lahore Press Club, via the Mall, carrying banners and placards. Escorting them was a contingent of the Punjab police.

The JuD continues to use print and electronic media for propaganda purposes, in gross violation of government orders. For instance, JuD spokesperson Abdullah Muntazir issued a statement as recently as January 6, threatening the government with dire consequences should it decide to act against the JuD.

Incidentally, the American fbi is believed to have identified Muntazir as the person who impersonates as the Srinagar-based Lashkar-e-Toiba spokesperson Abdullah Ghaznavi. The fbi has reportedly told Islamabad that Muntazir has adopted this ruse—ringing up journalists from masked numbers—because of the JuD’s official stance that it has severed links with the LeT, once it shifted base to Srinagar.

The only concrete action taken against the JuD so far has been the shutting down of its Urdu and English websites by the Cyber Crime Wing of the Federal Investigation Agency. However, the JuD’s Urdu-language weekly, Ghazva, continues to hit the newsstands, featuring hate material. Ghazva treated the Mumbai attacks as its lead story, describing the gory incident as "a historic victory for the Muslim warriors who had actually avenged the grave atrocities being committed by the Indian establishment against the Muslim minority in several parts of India and in the state of Jammu & Kashmir". In the same issue, Ghazva claimed that over 4,500 Pakistani mothers donated one son each and 83 mothers two sons each to the JuD this year. Their goal: promoting, preaching and defending Islam, besides waging jehad against the forces of the infidel.

After all this, the Pakistan government, as is required by UNSC resolution No. 1267, has not even confiscated the weapons, even those licensed, from JuD activists. On January 4, information minister Sherry Rehman said it is the Punjab government’s responsibility to enforce the ban. In response, the provincial government spokesman Pervaiz Rashid pointed out that five JuD leaders have been put under arrest. "Necessary measures are also being taken for assuming control of the central headquarters of Jamaat-ud-Dawa at Muridke," he added. The most interesting comment, though, came from federal interior minister Rehman Malik: "If they are running schools and hospitals, what can we do? We are not in a position to shut down medical centres and schools and colleges being run by the JuD." There are a few voices that say, well, take them over then.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

However, the JuD’s Urdu-language weekly, Ghazva, continues to hit the newsstands, featuring hate material. Ghazva treated the Mumbai attacks as its lead story, describing the gory incident as "a historic victory for the Muslim warriors who had actually avenged the grave atrocities being committed by the Indian establishment against the Muslim minority in several parts of India and in the state of Jammu & Kashmir".

If that is true then it certainly is condemnable, and it would be interesting to ask HS what he though of that in light of his recent comments condemning the Mumbai attacks.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

No criticism of Saeed was intended in the article I linked to. The article illustrated the duplicity perpetrated by the Pakistani police, who claimed to be doing so because they were following the orders of their superiors.

yeah, the article was garbage.

Islam is what Muslims do. And some people who claim to be Muslims are doing some pretty terrible things. Fairly or not, that is a blight upon all Muslims everywhere.

absolutely

It seems the lies were not his, but the judgment to act on them was. So IMO it's up to the electorate and the history books to punish him, not any court or terrorist. (While removing Saddam was a big plus for Iraq, nobody grasps the long-term effects yet.)

as the so-called "Commander in Chief" he should be held accountable for his actions, along with members of his "intelligence" apparatus and advisors --all of whom are guilty of forging some nonexistant link between 9/11, AQ and Iraq


(oh wait....the war was about WMDs......the former "excuse" came much later)


my bad.

Media misinformation is a fact of life. It's up to Pakistanis to deal with it.

yeah we're dealing with it.....we just roll our eyes and tell you that you are being fed garbage and misinformation about Pakistan.

Only way to learn about our concerns and the ground realities would be to physically travel here and see things for yourself.

Some governments are extremely successful in dealing with the media. Consider Saudi Arabia. No one talks about the poverty there, nor about the high life the Saudi royalty leads, far in excess of any Hollywood star.

That's not the case in Pakistan. The media here is freer than any other world media. A bit TOO free i think! In fairness to Pak media, it often broaches topics of problems encompassing the region in informative and objective manner (especially Dawn News). Nobody in or outside of Pakistan is "safe" from our media.

I say they are more powerful than our government

I think the U.S. will be completely convinced Pakistan is "serious about fighting terrorism" when it perceives Pakistan has abandoned its terror-supporting policies.

Then you make silly statements like this.

US better be grateful and "convinced"...we have captured and killed more terrorists/extremists than any other country and we have suffered the most because of it.

It's unfortunate that U.S. decides to withdraw from checkposts near the Afghan border, when in fact they should be doing the opposite.

As for "terror supporting" policies, you will have to post evidence of any kind to prove that Pakistan "supports terrorists"

To claim the U.S. isn't "serious about fighting terrorism" seems a completely unsupportable stretch to me.

if the U.S. is VERY serious about winning in Afghanistan, they will have no choice but to heed to our demands and concerns. We have extended our hand in cooperation not just for US, but for our own interests and security as well.

U.S. should hear our concerns as well, many of which we have.....including allowing indian consullates in NATO-occupied Afghanistan to carry out anti-Pakistani activities unabated.

True, but not relevant on the PR level. I didn't like the stonewalling by India either, but I'm sure they felt they had to examine everything first so the ISI couldn't compromise evidence or sources.

I'm sure that since you are not familiar with the investigation, you shouldnt label speculation as "being sure"

That was probably the intent. So the GoP was addressing whoever was supporting the Mumbai Massacre in Pakistan, not the Indians.

Remember, the GoP was trying to reign in the ISI and by implication its rogue operations?

I think your are still showing your confusion on this matter. Who said anything about "rogue ISI operations"

where is the proof that ISI was involved? You are just basing your "knowledge" on statements made by indians (pranab mukherji?)

The prospect of war with India stopped that process cold and, I think, froze all ISI personnel reassignments.

ISI is still fully active in working for and ensuring national security interests of Pakistan.

I think, you are confused.

To take out the terror bases, in case Pakistan did nothing. So a successful investigation and prosecution of the terror culprits and the destruction of their organization will serve to prevent war.

What a joke. We are a sovereign country. Any mere mention of "surgical strikes" will be dealt with accordingly. An actual strike would have extremely serious ramifications --and i think wiser councils in india are better informed than to dare attempt such a wreckless maneuver.

Linkys, please.

DAWN.COM | World | McChrystal and India

Top Stories | Pakistan Observer Newspaper online edition

I'm trying to steer back to the topic, but it's a heavy gale that blows towards blaming others rather than tacking into prevailing winds...

our biggest priority is neutralizing any threats to Pakistan, regardless of where they come from or whoever is arming them

I personally believe that most Afghans perceive NATO troops in Afghanistan as "invaders" .....therefore, we shouldnt be obliged to make fighting pro-Pakistani anti-American forces as first priority...rest assured, Pakistan should not be a place where militants should come in from Afghanistan and settle. We dont want that.

But as long as western forces are in Afghanistan, I see no end in sight to the violence. It is NO DIFFERENT than when the soviets were in Afghanistan. They were also perceived as invaders, and thusly they were driven out.


It is high time for americans to understand our concerns from purely Pakistani lens. Learn about our sacrifices and what we have went through in order to stop the scourge of terrorism facing Central/South Asian region and beyond.


You needed us in 1980s, and you need us now. So cooperate and collaborate with us - and learn the ground realities before trying to apply certain out-dated models to a country like Afghanistan.


I care for the American people and consider myself a good friend of America. It saddens me to see how the public has been fed lies for so many years.

Had 100% of the focus been on Afghanistan from 2001 onwards (rather than diverting resources to the Iraq BLUNDER), things would have been MUCH different now.




did you see the October 2009 issue of Newsweek Magazine (Inside the Mind of the Taleban)?


if not, then i HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend that you read it with undivided attention.







PAKISTAN ZINDABAD....

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Amazing.

Just a few days after 26/11 there was an issue of the "Ghazwa Times" saying that 26/11 was a glorious victory for the Mujahids of Islam.

did you even bother to read the article i posted?


by the way, what does this weekly have anything to do with the JuD Charity? LeT is a non-existant organization that has been banned.

JuD is purely a charity organization. It has been reprimanded unfairly (in my opinion), and I am happy to see that JuD members are busy filing appeal with UN


Hafiz Saeed may not be a fan of hindoostan, but that is mostly due to his pro-Kashmir Freedom stance. That makes indians shakey, and in line with the israelis --indians are learning to label dissentors as "terrorists"


Rest assured, he will never be handed over or placed under any sanctions as long as the courts deem him innocent of all charges based on given evidence. I do hope those responsible for 26/11 attacks ARE brought to justice. It was a heinous crime against mostly civilians. It was a loss for Pakistan as well, especially since Mr. Haimant Karkare was killed --and we needed him to bring justice to Pakistanis who were killed by hindu extremists. It seems rest of indian establishment is not motivated enough to bring the culprits of Saumjhota Express bomb blasts to justice.

Approximately 70 of our nationals were killed in this act of cowardice and terrorism, no justice or closure thus far.

 

[hembo]

I do hope those responsible for 26/11 attacks ARE brought to justice. It was a heinous crime against mostly civilians. It was a loss for Pakistan as well, especially since Mr. Haimant Karkare was killed --and we needed him to bring justice to Pakistanis who were killed by hindu extremists. It seems rest of indian establishment is not motivated enough to bring the culprits of Saumjhota Express bomb blasts to justice.

Approximately 70 of our nationals were killed in this act of cowardice and terrorism, no justice or closure thus far.

Though off topic, since the discussion is going on anyways, here's my two cents:

It is a little disapointing to see you, being a professional and all, still linking the Samjhota blasts to Colonel Purohit. I can understand laymens being absorbed in the progandas but some professional who can dig out important informations (which may not even be available to us civilians), still sticking to some wrong information is really shocking.

It has already been established beyond doubt that the Samjhota blast were handiworks of L-e-T mofos. Colonel Purohit and the other scumbags were indicted for Malegaon blasts (inside India).

Also the difference is we are prosecuting the Purohit b@stard alongwith his other acomplishes whereas worst scumbags in Pakistan are roaming free like a bird, still preaching hate.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

It is a little disapointing to see you, being a professional and all, still linking the Samjhota blasts to Colonel Purohit.

Buddy, I'm not active in the Armed Forces though I maintain some informal contact with friends who are active to this day.

I'm a civilian who is entitled to my views.


Pray tell me -- when did I even once mention Purohit's name in this thread? It is you who has brought him up!!

It has already been established beyond doubt that the Samjhota blast were handiworks of L-e-T mofos.

No. It was your media which initially accused the ISI if I am not mistaken? Learned reaction when any event -- firecracker or temple stampede - goes off in your country.

Colonel Purohit and the other scumbags were indicted for Malegaon blasts (inside India).

i am aware

Also the difference is we are prosecuting the Purohit b@stard alongwith his other acomplishes whereas worst scumbags in Pakistan are roaming free like a bird

Such as?

still preaching hate.

just like Modi, Advani, Varun Ghandi and Bal Thackeray (just to name a few, who are still active in mainstream hindoostan politics it appears!)

 

[mshoaib61]