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Obama offers Pakistan enhanced partnership

No, you don't. That just makes it worse.

bingo


Didn't the CIA tell Pakistan that the transcripts were authentic?

why werent they released to public?


Hire translators. We have such problems in the U.S., too...

excuse me its a language spoken in maharashtra. We conduct a lot of our official discussions in English; so why the bloody hell would we hire translators when we would expect them to deliver evidence in either English or Urdu


These are all distractions, and answering them won't help Pakistan or its image in the least.


are you kidding me? These are very relevant "distractions." Pakistan's image has nothing to do with it. You were sa


were those people whom I mentioned "State actors" i.e. were their actions on behalf of the United States of America, or not?

You said (I quote)

Basically, if the GoP wants to convince others that it doesn't maintain "stateless actors" as weapons, the GoP has to do a better job not only convincing foreigners, but their own populace who serve as willing recruits as well.



i await your response.
 
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As most of the world saw it, Pakistan was calling for delay, rather than seeing Mumbai as an urgent matter to pro-actively investigate itself - as the local Pakistani police were indeed doing, but the GoP did NOT tell this to the world. That smacks of either deception or incompetence. In absence of any admission of the latter, people are left suspecting the former.
As most of the world 'saw it'? That goes back to the point of trying to convince a racist ... and did you conduct scientific polling to determine the validity of that statement? Instead of answering the point I raised of Pakistan extending various offers of cooperation and joint investigation (while India was beating war drums and vilifying the Pakistani State), calling for calm etc., the best you can do is say 'the world saw it differently'.

Do you realize that the only thing that allowed the local Pakistani police to investigate were the leaked reports coming out of the Indian media? The reports suggested various names for Kasab and various places in Pakistan he claimed to be. There was no official communication from the Indian government, despite Pakistani appeals of cooperation and information sharing, on providing information to actually conduct an investigation.

Without any information from the GoI, what exactly, and who was the GoP supposed to investigate in a nation of 170 million?

What I read in this is that it is important for you to believe that all the things you listed are true or evil or else you would feel compelled to believe that 'The West is superior to you Pakistanis' - your words, not mine. Some of Pakistan's diplomats and journalists have freed themselves from neurosis by accepting that this is possible. Why not you? Why do you and so many of your countrymen react, when evidence is presented of poor Pakistani behavior, by citing the real or imagined failures of others, rather than dealing with Pakistan's own faults squarely?
They may be my words, but your intent is clear in that you claim that the West is more credible despite not providing any more evidence to substantiate its allegations than Pakistan has its, and despite the sordid history of the West where it has lied, deceived and committed and supported horrendous crimes against other nations.

Why would you claim the West is more credible, in the face of Western history indicating the opposite, unless you believed the West was superior?

I am pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and double standards in your comments (and those of many in the West and India) where Pakistani concerns and allegations of Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan are dismissed for lack of evidence, yet the West and India have no problems voicing (and people like you believing) similarly unsubstantiated accusations against Pakistan.

I would argue that the 'neurosis' is reflected in people like yourself and various Indians and their apologists, who cling to these double standards.

There is one overriding question here, as you routinely argue in the threads in Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan - where is the evidence?
 
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why werent they released to public?
I have no clue.

its a language spoken in maharashtra. We conduct a lot of our official discussions in English; so why the bloody hell would we hire translators when we would expect them to deliver evidence in either English or Urdu
Pakistan wanted originals, it sounds like Pakistan got them.

are you kidding me? These are very relevant "distractions." Pakistan's image has nothing to do with it. You were sa [???]
were those people whom I mentioned "State actors" i.e. were their actions on behalf of the United States of America, or not?
Please tell me EXACTLY why you consider this important.
 
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if you pakistani can read chinese and acquire info from china public actions and official news released and even the commoners blogs you will know china gov is also trying to do something to stabilise her southwest direction situation...to my surprise that less chinese are commenting on things related to chaos in pak and afghanistan, i think they are too reluctant to accept the facts that they are friends of pak but they are unable to do anything on these messed up issue, so they choose to run away from this topics and go developing their economy, hoping one day they can help pak using their wealth and influence....i guess.....so pak has to endure a longlasting winter with little help.....
 
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As most of the world 'saw it'? That goes back to the point of trying to convince a racist
You've lost me, I don't get the connection.

... did you conduct scientific polling to determine the validity of that statement?
No. Do you really think that was necessary, given the headlines of late November and early December 2008?

Instead of answering the point I raised of Pakistan extending various offers of cooperation and...calling for calm etc., the best you can do is say 'the world saw it differently'. Do you realize that the only thing that allowed the local Pakistani police to investigate were the leaked reports coming out of the Indian media? The reports suggested various names for Kasab and various places in Pakistan he claimed to be. There was no official communication from the Indian government -

Just imagine what the difference would have been had the GoP made it clear that its own police, of their own initiative, just from the information available in the Indian media, were actively trying to trace down every available fact of the matter so that Kasab's origin could be verified and the organization behind him destroyed. It would have made a world of difference! India-Pakistan relations could even have improved as a result! Certainly such a response would have impressed the West.

Instead, the GoP built the image, or allowed the media to build an image without sufficient contest, of a government and people under siege, defensive and concealing.

They may be my words, but your intent is clear in that you claim that the West is more credible -
No, I think this is what's going on in your head, just below the conscious level.

Why would you claim the West is more credible, in the face of Western history indicating the opposite, unless you believed the West was superior?
I'm not making such a claim here. All I asked is if you can find it in yourself to allow that the West may be "superior" (whatever you think that is.)

I am pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and double standards in your comments (and those of many in the West and India) where Pakistani concerns and allegations of Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan are dismissed for lack of evidence, yet the West and India have no problems voicing (and people like you believing) similarly unsubstantiated accusations against Pakistan.
They are not similar. The GoP just indicted those they think responsible for the Mumbai massacre. That's after the Indians captured a suspect who had been videoed in the act, collected evidence, generated a paper trail, and submitted the kit and kaboodle to the GoP. As far as I know, Pakistan has only the angry noises of its officials and one odd confession of a suspect said to have been captured by the PA.
 
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I have no clue.

chuck it


Pakistan wanted originals, it sounds like Pakistan got them.

originals??? we had already received the first dossier which was in English. All official documents and diplomatic level cooperation is conducted in English, or in Urdu.

Would we send the indians a follow-up in Seraiki??? :no:

Maybe we should have, just to prove a point!!!



Please tell me EXACTLY why you consider this important.


well it was you who brought up this non-state actors business ---so i wanted you to clarify whether the afore-mentioned men were state or non-state actors.

It was really a simple question I had asked you. Seeing that you are from DC (a city where I did graduate studies) I assume you are intellectual enough to respond in transparent and meaningful manner.
 
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You've lost me, I don't get the connection.
The connection is one of those in the West irrationally and without evidence vilifying Pakistan to racists who similarly cannot be convinced of the immorality of their position.

Just imagine what the difference would have been had the GoP made it clear that its own police, of their own initiative, just from the information available in the Indian media, were actively trying to trace down every available fact of the matter so that Kasab's origin could be verified and the organization behind him destroyed. It would have made a world of difference! India-Pakistan relations could even have improved as a result! Certainly such a response would have impressed the West.
Widely speculative and contradicting accounts in the media are not a sound basis to launch an investigation. That the West did not appreciate Pakistan's attempts to encourage India to officially share information and evidence and even conduct a joint investigation, and instead focused on the fact that the GoP was not acting on speculative and contradicting media reports amidst war drums and hysterical shrieking from the Indian media and government only serves to highlight that 'neurosis' and open practice of double standards and irrational vilification of Pakistan by the West.

While I understand the argument of 'could have impressed the West', that argument is a speculative one about 'extra' measures Pakistan could have taken (and what about the measures, not even extra' that India could have taken?). What needs to be recognized first is that Pakistan acted appropriately and rationally in asking for cooperation and evidence sharing with India, and proposed a joint investigation. What needs to be recognized is that it is irrational to expect a government to initiate investigations on the basis of speculative and contradictory media reports in another nation.

Instead, the GoP built the image, or allowed the media to build an image without sufficient contest, of a government and people under siege, defensive and concealing.
Well we hadn't counted on the fact that many in the West would be akin to racists and not acknowledge the rather rational position Pakistan had of encouraging India to cooperate with us and share evidence and information and even a joint investigation. We hadn't counted on the fact that the Western media, fueled by the need to protect Washington's new 'strategic and economic interests in Delhi' would ignore Pakistan's rational overtures of cooperation and instead latch on to absurd arguments of why the GoP did not act on speculative and contradictory media reports in a foreign nation.
No, I think this is what's going on in your head, just below the conscious level.
No, that is pretty much your position - as you clarified in your next line.

I'm not making such a claim here. All I asked is if you can find it in yourself to allow that the West may be "superior" (whatever you think that is.)
The duplicitous and lying history of the West cannot be ignored. Without evidence to back up its assertions I fail to see why we should use double standards.
They are not similar. The GoP just indicted those they think responsible for the Mumbai massacre. That's after the Indians captured a suspect who had been videoed in the act, collected evidence, generated a paper trail, and submitted the kit and kaboodle to the GoP. As far as I know, Pakistan has only the angry noises of its officials and one odd confession of a suspect said to have been captured by the PA.

Oh but they are - the suspect captured by India and the evidence related to the act only substantiate the fact that Kasab is Pakistani and part of the Mumbai attacks may have been planned in Pakistan - the suspect and evidence do not establish that the Pakistani state or any Pakistani institutions were involved, which is the accusation often raised by the GoI, Indian media and others.

In any case, where is the evidence in the case of any US accusations against Pakistan?
 
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worth reading....


Jamat-ud-Dawa Chief: A Message To Indians On Mumbai Anniversary
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"We sympathize with the victims; never attacked women and children; Indian government is deceiving you"

· Five Thousand Families In Pakistan Affected By Mumbai Attacks



By AHMEDQURAISHI.COM
Monday, 30 November 2009.
Ahmed Quraishi-Pakistan/Middle East politics, Iraq war, lebanon war, India Pakistan relations
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—In a detailed letter written to Hamid Mir of Geo News, the alleged mastermind of the Mumbai attacks, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, sympathized with the families of all those who lost their lives in the Mumbai attacks last year and said that Islam does not condone random blasts at public places, nor does it endorses the killing of innocent non-Muslims.

Following is the text of the letter:

Dear Mr. Hamid Mir,
As-salaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmat Allah
I hope you are doing well. It has been almost a year since the Mumbai attacks took place. I am writing to you because I would like to offer some thoughts in this regard.
Hundreds of families were affected by these attacks and these families must certainly be in a state of mourning on the anniversary of the attacks. Yet, if a few hundred families were affected by these attacks in India, at least five thousand families in Pakistan have also had to endure momentous suffering.
This is so because India placed the entire blame of the Mumbai attacks on the Jamat-ud-Dawa and me, without any proof at all, and succeeded in having UN sanctions imposed upon us with the active collaboration of the United States. The sanctions resulted in a crackdown on the Jamat-ud-Dawa and all of the organization’s humanitarian and educational projects were shut down, while I, along with a number of my colleagues, was put under preventive detention.
The prime victims of these unreasonable and unmerited sanctions have been those underprivileged families whom the Jamat-ud-Dawa had been supporting with contributions of five to eight thousand rupees a month. Apart from these severely affected families, scores of other individuals who had been working for the Jamat-ud-Dawa's humanitarian projects on a monthly remuneration basis, such as doctors, engineers, technicians, teachers, as well as hundreds of volunteers, have been very adversely affected by these unfair sanctions.
I am indeed extremely saddened at the loss of innocent lives in the Mumbai attacks, and I fully sympathise with the families of those who lost their lives, but it remains a fact that India has deceitfully associated me with these attacks. Although India succeeded in associating the Jamat-ud-Dawa and me with these attacks in the media, yet it has been unable to prove these allegations in any free and independent court of the world.
At the conclusion of the hearings challenging the detention of my colleagues and me, the Lahore High Court had noted in its historical judgment that it had not found any evidence, which associated the Jamat-ud-Dawa, Hafiz Saeed, or Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi with the Mumbai attacks. The truth is that the government arrested various leaders who endorse Jihad in Kashmir and did so for the sole purpose of pleasing India. These leaders are now enduring in-camera hearings in Anti-Terrorism Court merely because they support the right of self-determination of the Kashmiri people. Almost a whole year has passed since these arrests, yet none of these leaders has been indicted to date.
Meanwhile, India has handed over several dossiers, supposedly carrying evidence against me, to the Pakistani government, yet the Pakistani government has itself admitted that these dossiers do not contain any evidence against me.
The Indian media has made it a perpetual issue of propaganda that several dossiers have been handed over to the Pakistani government by India, yet Pakistan refuses to move against Hafiz Saeed. As I have stated earlier, the truth is that these dossiers do not contain any evidence against me. Then what is the purpose of this entire hullabaloo, one might ask. The fact is that India desires to suppress the Kashmir issue, which is the real dynamic behind all this Indian propaganda.,
My real ‘crime’ is that I vociferously and comprehensively highlight the Kashmir issue. Kashmir is Pakistan’s jugular vein and we can never close our eyes to it. India is extremely averse to our stance regarding Kashmir and instead of resolving the issue; it resorts to unleashing propaganda in order to cover up the matter.
The Pakistani media should counter Indian propaganda by projecting the Kashmir problem as an existent issue. Indian promises on the United Nations forum of holding a plebiscite in Kashmir are on record, and no one can refuse to acknowledge their existence. Then why has India been consistently sidestepping the UN resolution on the Kashmir issue for the past sixty years? We must press India for a clarification of the delay instead of adopting a defensive stance, for it is India who always either delays the resolution of this critical issue through inconclusive negotiations, spurious calls for friendship, or in fake negotiations in the name of confidence-building measures, and sometimes by just bluntly refusing to negotiate on the matter. If any negotiations do take place, India makes sure that there is no mention of the Kashmir issue. If the Kashmir issue is ever mentioned at all, India promptly associates it with terrorism.
It must be inquired of India that if it is sincere about the Kashmir issue then why is it terrified of negotiations on this matter, and why does it not allow this matter to be resolved? It is precisely because of India’s duplicity and hypocrisy that China too, is exasperated with India’s attitude, while India’s relations with its other neighbours, Bangladesh, Nepal etc too are not very praiseworthy either and usually remain strained.
What needs to be done under these circumstances, therefore, is for our government and media to expose India’s duplicitous posture. It is a paradox that our friend, China, is issuing separate visas to Kashmiris, while we pursue an apologetic and defensive policy. India has slaughtered more than a hundred thousand Muslims in Kashmir. This crime must be exposed.
Another reason for India’s personal vendetta against myself, accompanied with all the usual racket, is evident in what every Pakistani man, woman, and child is saying these days, and which I have claimed for several years now; that India is the real sponsor of all the acts of terror and carnage in Pakistan.
My crime is that I reveal India’s real face to the people of Pakistan and I expose its two-faced policy of overtly appearing all smiles and geniality, while it conceals a dagger in its sleeve, waiting to stab one in the back at the first opportunity. India cannot stand my existence for another reason too, and that is that I speak about the rights of Muslims of the whole subcontinent. Moreover, I do not stay silent when Muslims are slaughtered in Gujrat and Maharashtra.
Not only my Deen, but, in fact, no law in the entire world forbids me from raising my voice at the massacre of innocent Muslims in India, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. It is also noteworthy that my parents had migrated from India when Pakistan gained independence and, hence, apart from the ties of Islamic brotherhood, I also have a geographical association with the Muslims of India. We lost many of our loved ones during the migration to Pakistan and, therefore, have a much clearer and comprehensive understanding of the difficulties and problems faced by Muslims in India.
India’s double-faced policy is also evident from the fact that it had been constructing dams on rivers flowing into Pakistan while it overtly negotiated confidence-building measures. My organization exposed this Indian conspiracy in every corner of Pakistan. India, therefore, considers my organization and me the biggest obstacles in its path of nefarious designs against Pakistan and that is why it incessantly points the finger at me without providing any tangible evidence. Alas! It is unfortunate that our government continues to pursue a meek and self-protective foreign policy vis-‡-vis India instead of defending Jamat-ud-Dawah and me. Pakistan’s government dreams of friendship with an enemy, though its dream will never be realized.
Kindly allow me to also mention here that under sway of incessant Indian propaganda some Pakistani intellectuals and journalists too, hold a negative opinion of my organization and me. Although such individuals are few in number, yet I would like to say with all due respect to these individuals that the Jamat-ud-Dawa is an organization which has promoted this ideology ever since its inception, that any type of armed activities within Pakistan are not right. Alhamdulillah, it is precisely because of this policy that no evidence has ever been presented against the Jamat-ud-Dawa in any court of Pakistan, which could show that the Jamat-ud-Dawa was ever involved in any negative activities, or had ever attempted to disrupt peace in Pakistan.
The Jamat-ud-Dawa has always been the first to condemn any armed activity within Pakistan, including suicide attacks. We consider such activities damaging to the image of Islam and Pakistan. Islam is a religion of peace and jihad for the sake of Allah is a vital pillar of Islam, yet there are certain specified rules for carrying out jihad, which does not include indiscriminate killing of everyone everywhere. Islam does not condone random blasts at public places, nor does it endorse the killing of every non-Muslim that one comes across.
We do not believe in killing and slaughter in non-Muslim countries too, and we believe that it is the responsibility of Muslims to protect the life and property of non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Raising of the sword is only permissible against those non-Muslims who arm themselves to the teeth and invade Muslim lands and people. It is because of this ideology of the Jamat-ud-Dawa that Hindus and Christians from Karachi and interior Sindh took out protest rallies in support of the Jamat-ud-Dawa when UNSC imposed sanctions upon the Jamat-ud-Dawa last year. It has been a hallmark of Jamat-ud-Dawa's humanitarian services that it has always served people in need without any discrimination on ethnic or religious basis whatsoever. We did so because that is what Islam had taught us to do.
It deserves mention here that the UN Security Council (UNSC) has imposed sanctions on several public welfare and jihadi organisations of member Muslim nations, yet the Jamat-ud-Dawa is the only organisation, which formally challenged these sanctions at the Security Council. We prepared and submitted a formal request for de-listing in accordance with the rules of the UNSC, and the UNSC, as well as the European Union contacted us for further clarifications. Our case is still pending at the UNSC. There is a fundamental flaw in the basis on which the UNSC has imposed the sanctions and we firmly believe that sooner or later that day will come when the international community will accept our just point of view and position.
Whatever has been said against the Markaz-e-Taiba, Muridke, in the Kerry-Lugar Bill is also mere propaganda. Markaz-e-Taiba, Muridke is an educational and public welfare complex where, apart from the educational institutions for boys and girls, an excellent hospital also exists. Nor has it ever been a no-go area in the past. Journalists from every corner of the world have toured and surveyed it, yet western media, with its agenda of promoting certain interests and objectives, continues to spew propaganda regarding this educational complex.
The object of writing these lines is to call for an end to negative propaganda against Jamat-ud-Dawa and to allow it to fully resume its humanitarian and public welfare projects. Perpetual negative propaganda against us, despite our evident past and our open present is beyond our comprehension. We obviously do not expect anything from others, but we do believe we have a right to expect that the Pakistani media will support us against the innumerable injustices committed against Pakistan’s major humanitarian relief organization and will cooperate with us in presenting the truth to the international community.
Wa salaam.
Sincerely,
Hafiz Muhammad Saeed
Ameer, Jamat-ud-Dawa Pakistan



We have already rounded up suspects on Pakistani soil. We cooperated with INTERPOL.
INTERPOL CHIEF himself complained about india's lack of follow-up. Despite the lack of cooperation from Mumbai, we pre-emptively placed Hafiz Saeed under house-arrest and barred him from speaking to media.
Lahore High Courts demanded end to his house arrest until valid charges were brought against him. The Ruling of the courts are binding, as is the case in any country.

Pakistan is a sovereign country. Thusly, we will not be told how to run investigations. Ongoing operations in and around S. Waziristan and other nearby agencies is proof that we are doing more than any other country to fight terrorism.





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Christian Pakistanis protest sanctions against JuD in Sindh Province


Co-ed Students protest sanctions against Markaz e Taiba in Muridke, Punjab


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worth reading....


By AHMEDQURAISHI.COM
Monday, 30 November 2009.
Ahmed Quraishi-Pakistan/Middle East politics, Iraq war, lebanon war, India Pakistan relations
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—In a detailed letter written to Hamid Mir of Geo News, the alleged mastermind of the Mumbai attacks, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, sympathized with the families of all those who lost their lives in the Mumbai attacks last year and said that Islam does not condone random blasts at public places, nor does it endorses the killing of innocent non-Muslims.

Following is the text of the letter:

At the conclusion of the hearings challenging the detention of my colleagues and me, the Lahore High Court had noted in its historical judgment that it had not found any evidence, which associated the Jamat-ud-Dawa, Hafiz Saeed, or Zaki-ur-Rahman Lakhvi with the Mumbai attacks. The truth is that the government arrested various leaders who endorse Jihad in Kashmir and did so for the sole purpose of pleasing India. These leaders are now enduring in-camera hearings in Anti-Terrorism Court merely because they support the right of self-determination of the Kashmiri people. Almost a whole year has passed since these arrests, yet none of these leaders has been indicted to date.

All I can say is I hope the majority of serving military professionals don't buy into such pro-jihadi propaganda. Unfortunately, the long-standing ties between the military and its proxy, the LeT, have helped LeT cultivate a cult hero status for itself.

The fact that the GOP has indicted Zakhi ur Rehman and his LeT buddies is not great news for the jihadis. The foreign minister in a recent interview has also stated the government's belief that it has sufficient evidence to secure convictions against all seven LeT militants.
 
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Please tell me EXACTLY why you consider this important.

well it was you who brought up this non-state actors business ---so i wanted you to clarify whether the afore-mentioned men were state or non-state actors.

The connection is one of those in the West irrationally and without evidence vilifying Pakistan to racists who similarly cannot be convinced of the immorality of their position.

Whether crimes committed by Americans are by state actors or not, how does that absolve any Pakistani of any crime?

We Jews say that when Jews are singled out for misdeeds common in many other peoples, that is anti-Semitism - racism. Similarly, when Americans or Pakistanis are cited that way, that is racism. BUT that doesn't mean that whatever crime was committed should be ignored - especially in matters of war and peace, life and death.

Nor does it mean it is acceptable for imaginary crimes or knowingly false interpretations about other peoples to be spread as a cover to obscure the process of justice, for that is also racism.

Widely speculative and contradicting accounts in the media are not a sound basis to launch an investigation.
I presume you are criticizing the Pakistani police for showing initiative.

That the West did not appreciate Pakistan's attempts to encourage India to officially share information and evidence and even conduct a joint investigation -
You forget that (1) Pakistan and India are antagonists, and (2) Pakistani credibility is low. Basically it would be unreasonable for the Indians to trust Pakistan with information that could compromise India's investigation - or its sources. It was natural for India to suspect that ferreting out India's spy network in Pakistan was the aim of such an offer, not prosecuting people for killing Indians.

the fact that the GoP was not acting on speculative and contradicting media reports amidst war drums and hysterical shrieking from the Indian media and government only serves to highlight that 'neurosis' and open practice of double standards and irrational vilification of Pakistan by the West.

You know, when Israel or the U.S. accidentally bombs or kills civilians the apology is often made before the facts are confirmed - even if the initial report is false or misleading. Yes, it is irrational (perhaps more accurately "sensational"), but them's the facts, bro'! No "double standard", just the usual unfair standard.

The duplicitous and lying history of the West cannot be ignored.
Such things have to be related to current officials, policies, and conduct if they are to be relevant. Otherwise I could claim, for example, that Henry VIII's debasement of currency four hundred years ago "proves" that the English are a duplicitous people, or at least that Queen Elizabeth II is.

the suspect and evidence do not establish that the Pakistani state or any Pakistani institutions were involved -

Things seem to be moving in the direction of demonstrating that the GoP had no direct command involvement in the Mumbai Massacre. But the initial conduct of the GoP did not serve to convey this to the public, but left the opposite impression instead.

In any case, where is the evidence in the case of any US accusations against Pakistan?

I think the clearest case made against Pakistan was in David Sanger's book, published last year, that contained the confession by the Pakistani military to U.S. intelligence that they were supporting the Taliban. link. That revelation not only was not convincingly denied by the U.S. government, but seems to have been taken to heart at the very highest levels of the U.S. government.
 
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Whether crimes committed by Americans are by state actors or not, how does that absolve any Pakistani of any crime?
That is my point - that the Pakistani state committed a crime is what has not been established, and yet it is vilified on the basis of what? Being the other, Muslim, an antagonist to an entity with which the West has significant strategic and economic interests?

Were a crime by the Pakistani state in that instance, or in the case of the recent utterances of Brown and company, conclusively shown, then your argument might have value.

As it is, the whole point is that there is no evidence of any crime being committed by Pakistan, certainly no evidence supporting your original contention of Pakistan using 'terrorism as a state policy'.
We Jews say that when Jews are singled out for misdeeds common in many other peoples, that is anti-Semitism - racism. Similarly, when Americans or Pakistanis are cited that way, that is racism. BUT that doesn't mean that whatever crime was committed should be ignored - especially in matters of war and peace, life and death.

Nor does it mean it is acceptable for imaginary crimes or knowingly false interpretations about other peoples to be spread as a cover to obscure the process of justice, for that is also racism.
You are raising a strawman, I am not arguing that crimes that are committed shoudl be ignored.

My argument is that Pakistan is vilified in the West for crimes without any evidence, and the strong belief many in the West posses that Pakistan is guilty, presumably on nothing more than the fact the US establishment says so indicates that there may be something akin to racism at play in accepting and supporting such an irrational position.
I presume you are criticizing the Pakistani police for showing initiative.
Not at all - they did more than what they should have, but, that does not excuse the Indians for not cooperating and their war hysteria nor should it paint the GoP in a bad light for acting rationally by asking for some cooperation and information at an official level to actuall set the official investigation into motion.

You forget that (1) Pakistan and India are antagonists, and (2) Pakistani credibility is low. Basically it would be unreasonable for the Indians to trust Pakistan with information that could compromise India's investigation - or its sources. It was natural for India to suspect that ferreting out India's spy network in Pakistan was the aim of such an offer, not prosecuting people for killing Indians.
So why even bother with asking Pakistan to investigate anything? The crime was committed in another nation - without information and cooperation on that crime, how exactly are perpetrators of that crime supposed to be punished? And were the information that sensitive, the Indians would not have eventually sent Pakistan the many dossiers they did would they? That they did eventually share information after initially refusing to and vilifying Pakistan debunks your argument of 'sensitive information', and points more to a coordinated attempt by the Indians to have their cake and eat it too - argue that Pakistan was not cooperating while it was in fact the Indians who were refusing to cooperate.

The issue here, if you can get beyond your 'neurosis against Pakistan' is one of Indian attitudes and the Indian mindset, not Pakistan's which acted rationally and properly.
You know, when Israel or the U.S. accidentally bombs or kills civilians the apology is often made before the facts are confirmed - even if the initial report is false or misleading. Yes, it is irrational (perhaps more accurately "sensational"), but them's the facts, bro'! No "double standard", just the usual unfair standard.
That is blatantly false - US apologies for civilian casualties (if there have been any, usually it is a statement of 'regret') are almost always issued after an uproar in Afghanistan by locals and the GoA and other NGO's. Even then there is no responsibility taken until the US Military investigates the incident itself. No need to lie to create an impression that somehow the US and Israel are subjected to an 'unfair standard' - they are not, their victims are though.

Such things have to be related to current officials, policies, and conduct if they are to be relevant. Otherwise I could claim, for example, that Henry VIII's debasement of currency four hundred years ago "proves" that the English are a duplicitous people, or at least that Queen Elizabeth II is.
The incidents mentioned are current enough - the lies over the WMD's in Iraq, lies over torture renditions etc. are not even a decade old. The rest in the past few decades. It is all very relevant to pointing out a systematic and persistent recourse to deceit and immoral actions by the West, which then leads to a lack of credibility when it comes to their utterances on foreign affairs.
Things seem to be moving in the direction of demonstrating that the GoP had no direct command involvement in the Mumbai Massacre. But the initial conduct of the GoP did not serve to convey this to the public, but left the opposite impression instead.
The GoP did everything it should have done in the aftermath of Mumbai. It offered a joint investigation, asked for information and cooperation, despite the war drums and vilification by the media and GoI in the country it was offering to help. No rational person could ask for more.
I think the clearest case made against Pakistan was in David Sanger's book, published last year, that contained the confession by the Pakistani military to U.S. intelligence that they were supporting the Taliban. link. That revelation not only was not convincingly denied by the U.S. government, but seems to have been taken to heart at the very highest levels of the U.S. government.

Is this based on another one of those 'anonymous sources' in the West for David Sanger? :lol:

Since this is being splashed across newspapers and in books, perhaps we can listen to this alleged conversation and then have it analyzed to see if it is indeed what it says it is, or is spliced together. Coming from the people who brought us WMD's in Iraq, I won't hold my breath on its veracity.

So once more, where is the evidence against Pakistan? A question you continue to evade.
 
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yet it is vilified on the basis of what? Being the other, Muslim -
No, Pakistan was vilified for appearing to aid and abet such terrorists. PR is so important! I'm sure that Pakistan can recover from this if the GoP and the people of Pakistan put sufficient effort into defeating terrorists and rejecting the system that created them, then such vilification will fade.

Were a crime by the Pakistani state in that instance, or in the case of the recent utterances of Brown and company, conclusively shown, then your argument might have value.
That's not how the politics works. I feel that for the U.S. or Britain or even India to prove such things publicly and conclusively is a last resort. Especially if they know the GoP was involved. They'd rather poke the GoP into doing so itself - which is what the GoP appears to be doing now, anyway. Doubtless if they felt the GoP wasn't cooperating they'd present more damning proof themselves, but they realize it is part of Pakistan's battle to assert civilian control over the military and its operations.

that does not excuse the Indians for not cooperating and their war hysteria -
No, the fact that the Indians were terrorized excuses their "war hysteria". They are excused for their lack of cooperation because their worry that the ISI will compromise their secret sources within Pakistan. Especially since the Mumbai op may have been carried out by "rogue" ISI officers, and any result that compromised Indian intelligence could then justify this terrorist act and future efforts, thus promoting the pro-terror crowd.

nothing more than the fact the US establishment says so indicates that there may be something akin to racism at play -
Hey, it isn't "racism" that U.S. officials have greater credibility than Pakistani ones in some matters. That record of credibility - despite any list of past U.S. transgressions - weighs heavily in this matter.

without information and cooperation on that crime, how exactly are perpetrators of that crime supposed to be punished?
By war, of course! Which is what a proper investigation and prosecution can avoid.

- argue that Pakistan was not cooperating while it was in fact the Indians who were refusing to cooperate.
Possibly. But the GoP handled both the internal and external PR very badly.

That is blatantly false - US apologies for civilian casualties (if there have been any, usually it is a statement of 'regret') are almost always issued after an uproar in Afghanistan by locals and the GoA and other NGO's.
Apologies are made by the U.S. without responsibility being taken, along the lines of "We always regret when civilians are among the casualties." But the U.S. often pays "compensation" to civilians for casualties, even when it knows the recently dug graves have dead goats, not people, inside. Israel has indeed made apologies for false reports (The al-Dura affair comes to mind.)

The incidents mentioned are current enough - the lies over the WMD's in Iraq, lies over torture renditions etc. are not even a decade old. The rest in the past few decades.
Because each change in a U.S. Administration is a discontinuity, such an argument is not accepted by Americans - nor a lot of non-Americans, I guess. Furthermore, there is a difference between an "honest mistake" and outright deception - even though it doesn't appear that way to some. In Iraq's case, almost every Western intelligence agency believed Saddam had WMDs - but it was both Saddam and his opposition that did the deceiving to make the CIA believe this.

The GoP did everything it should have done in the aftermath of Mumbai.
I have attempted to demonstrate what MORE the GoP could have done - to your satisfaction, I think.

Is this based on another one of those 'anonymous sources' in the West for David Sanger?
What matters is that U.S. officials believe it to be true and act on that belief. It's up to Pakistan to change that. I think the past few months indicate that Pakistan has made a good start at doing so.
 
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All I can say is I hope the majority of serving military professionals don't buy into such pro-jihadi propaganda. Unfortunately, the long-standing ties between the military and its proxy, the LeT, have helped LeT cultivate a cult hero status for itself.

The fact that the GOP has indicted Zakhi ur Rehman and his LeT buddies is not great news for the jihadis. The foreign minister in a recent interview has also stated the government's belief that it has sufficient evidence to secure convictions against all seven LeT militants.

LeT is a defunct and non-existant organization.

I am grateful to anybody ---regardless of religion --- who works for charity and well-being of others.

Yes -- Mr. Saeed does have some shady background, I don't know the full story. But JuD is not a terrorist organization, AT LEAST NOT IN MY EYES

We had a devastating earthquake in 2005 which killed over 80,000 people. JuD was the one which administered a lot of relief work and aid for the affectees.

As a Pakistani and a human, I laud any efforts to provide relief for those affected by natural disasters, terrorist attacks or anything else that causes physical/emotional distress.


I also agree that Kashmir is an issue which india needs to address, if, that is, they want our un-tethered cooperation and hand of friendship.

Whole nation mourned after 26/11 atrocity. But that mourning turned to anger when they began their anti-Pakistan smearing campaign and dared use disrespectful language towards this country.

We all have a goal NOT to have violence in our cities.








p.s. LeT and those 7 operatives don't really have my sympathy. Gen (retd.) Musharraf banned the organization years back, and he did so for a reason.

as for Hafiz Saeed, if no charges against him are brought up then it is ILLEGAL to prosecute him. We are a sovereign country and our courts can determine whether people shall meet sanctions or not, based on testimony & evidence.









NO EVIDENCE?













































































NO CASE!
 
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