Now Tejas Will Not Replace MiG-21s

[HalfMoon]

Another Rafale deal is unlikely to happen...but if it does, the induction will be significantly delayed unless the deal is signed by 2022

given our lethargic negotiation and procurement policies, it'll take another 5yrs just to get MoD & cabinet approvals, negotiate further kickbacks with Dassault, decide on the numbers and if they're anything over 2 squadrons, MoD/IAF will go back n forth on ToT and localized assembly which again is a huge mess

Yes. India is in line behind Egypt, Greece and UAE for additional Rafales. This means India will not get any new Rafales until 2028 even if ordered.

 

[Imran Khan]

khuda dushman ko bhi aysi air force or HAL na de

 

[Windjammer]

khuda dushman ko bhi aysi air force or HAL na de

Acha, aap ka koi aur bi dushman hey.!!

 

[baqai]

of course it's not going to replace Mig-21, it was incepted and conceptualized to replace ISS

 

[SQ8]

Another Rafale deal is unlikely to happen...but if it does, the induction will be significantly delayed unless the deal is signed by 2022

given our lethargic negotiation and procurement policies, it'll take another 5yrs just to get MoD & cabinet approvals, negotiate further kickbacks with Dassault, decide on the numbers and if they're anything over 2 squadrons, MoD/IAF will go back n forth on ToT and localized assembly which again is a huge mess

Who is to blame there? The system is still run by the bureaucracy and reforms cannot work within 5 years. These are cultural changes that take 20+ years to implement even in first world countries at times.

 

[mudas777]

Of course! Why would they want it to replace all the Mig-21's? Those are all planes that are still capable of downing F-16's without firing any missiles so why would they get rid of them!

Mig 21 doesn't need to use the missiles as its bad odour is enough lol .

 

[SABRE]

The Indians really ruined this program - actively ruined it. Could have been inducted 15 years ago provided the IAF bureaucracy wasn’t being influenced by special interests and HAL project management was run by a idli-sambhar party only interested in shining their resumes.

That is somewhat true. But my perspective is that it's less to do with IAF's bureaucracy being influenced with the DRDO/HAL's special interests, and more with the civilian government and bureaucracy (nevertheless, your argument holds). In many cases the DRDO and is subsidiaries commenced projects without having to receive the military's General Services Requirements (GSR), and once built, in whatever form or shape, they use the civilian governmental channel to shove it down the military's throats. This was the case with Prithvi SRBM and likely with Agni as well. The Indian military has on several occasions complained about the poor performance of the DRDO's weapon systems. But they had little influence on decision-making. If I am not mistaken the IAF did voice their dissatisfaction with Tejas, but in the end its not up to them to decide on the acquisition.

 

[Zapper]

Who is to blame there? The system is still run by the bureaucracy and reforms cannot work within 5 years. These are cultural changes that take 20+ years to implement even in first world countries at times.

That's my point as well...so don't expect another Rafale deal. Also, back during the initial MMRCA tender...there weren't a lot of buyers for Rafale which'll make Dassault to push their products by offering kickbacks which our top brass must've received heavily. Now that there are a lot more buyers with UAE opting for Rafale instead of F-35s, this'll result in little to no kickbacks and also put us at the bottom of the list even if a deal goes thru

I'd still want to pump all that money into LCA Mk-2 and AMCA to fastrack their development while imposing a self-arms embargo to import fully built fighter jets of foreign origin. We should only import critical tech like engines and other sub-systems where we are still at a nascent stage or haven't made significant progress yet

 

[aziqbal]

plot twist Mig21 will be repacking Tejas

 

[SQ8]

That's my point as well...so don't expect another Rafale deal. Also, back during the initial MMRCA tender...there weren't a lot of buyers for Rafale which'll make Dassault to push their products by offering kickbacks which our top brass must've received heavily. Now that there are a lot more buyers with UAE opting for Rafale instead of F-35s, this'll result in little to no kickbacks and also put us at the bottom of the list even if a deal goes thru

I'd still want to pump all that money into LCA Mk-2 and AMCA to fastrack their development while imposing a self-arms embargo to import fully built fighter jets of foreign origin. We should only import critical tech like engines and other sub-systems where we are still at a nascent stage or haven't made significant progress yet

Ive been advocating(if that means anything) for an “all hands on deck” approach for AMCA with PP partnership since 2015.
Stop buying civilian solutions(HCL, Wipro products meant for corporations) and instead challenge/“suggest” that they(any all Private sector) follow the government requirements to present products.
Finally kick some bureaucracy out or at least make them take project management courses so they understand the processes. 70% of Project Management classes are held in India yet the Indian military can’t seem to find the light under its own lamp.

 

[Riz]

Tejas Aircraft Not A Replacement For MIG-21 Fighters: Defence Ministry
Considering the contract with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited by Air Force, 123 Tejas fighter aircraft are to be manufactured, the Rajya Sabha was told.

All IndiaAsian News InternationalUpdated: December 20, 2021 8:59 pm IST

View attachment 802245


24 Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has been delivered till September 30 (Representational)



New Delhi:
Tejas is not being inducted as a replacement of the MIG-21 fighter aircraft, but as part of the modernisation of the Indian Air Force, the Ministry of Defence told the Rajya Sabha today


"Amount spent so far on the manufacture of 24 Light Combat Aircraft Tejas delivered till September 30, 2021, is ₹ 6,653 crore. Considering the contract with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) by IAF, a total of 123 Tejas fighter aircraft are to be manufactured. Further production depends upon the requirement for Indian Defence Services/export to customers," Minister of State for Defence Ajay Bhatt said.

Meanwhile, this is what was said and claimed earlier.

The indigenously developed light combat aircraft 'Tejas' would officially replace the MiG-21 FL fighter jet, chief of air staff of the Indian Air Force, Air chief marshal N A K Browne said on December 12, 2013.
We will get 40 aircraft and that will be the Mark-I type. Tejas will be battle ready by end of 2014," he said.

They are right , after watching the performance of SU-30 MKIs on the day of 27 feb , Teja would likely to replace SU-30 in coming years Mig to phir bhi peecha karty hoay LOC cross kar aya tha

 

[SQ8]

That is somewhat true. But my perspective is that it's less to do with IAF's bureaucracy being influenced with the DRDO/HAL's special interests, and more with the civilian government and bureaucracy (nevertheless, your argument holds). In many cases the DRDO and is subsidiaries commenced projects without having to receive the military's General Services Requirements (GSR), and once built, in whatever form or shape, they use the civilian governmental channel to shove it down the military's throats. This was the case with Prithvi SRBM and likely with Agni as well. The Indian military has on several occasions complained about the poor performance of the DRDO's weapon systems. But they had little influence on decision-making. If I am not mistaken the IAF did voice their dissatisfaction with Tejas, but in the end its not up to them to decide on the acquisition.

It goes both ways too - the LCA specs were repeatedly revised by the IAF that caused delays as well.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Who is to blame there? The system is still run by the bureaucracy and reforms cannot work within 5 years. These are cultural changes that take 20+ years to implement even in first world countries at times.

As you know, everyone is to blame. Excessive bureaucratic delay in decision making coupled with the availability of equipment from Russian and some Western countries. So IAF keeps gunning for the best aircraft available to be purchased which are of course better than the Tejas, and so they try to smash the Tejas, plus lots of special perks being made available. A bureaucratic defence design and production setup that actively sabotages itself (thankfully that is reducing) while promising much more than they can deliver. The Chinese did better while biding their time. I still don't understand why inspite to having so much power over the Pak armed forces, the Indian armed forces never tried to push their advantage (and this continues even today) - i suspect because of lethargy, lack of a proper military mindset of the politicians, lack of understanding of our place in the world, and of course some important people being beholden to other powers. If we could really smash Pakistan then we wouldn't be India. 1971 seems to be an aberration for us.

 

[Zapper]

Ive been advocating(if that means anything) for an “all hands on deck” approach for AMCA with PP partnership since 2015.
Stop buying civilian solutions(HCL, Wipro products meant for corporations) and instead challenge/“suggest” that they(any all Private sector) follow the government requirements to present products.
Finally kick some bureaucracy out or at least make them take project management courses so they understand the processes. 70% of Project Management classes are held in India yet the Indian military can’t seem to find the light under its own lamp.

There is a huge difference between how things are handled in public vs private sector in India. There is a reason why they term PSU work culture as "chai-biscut" culture since all they do is drink gallons of chain and chit-chat all day long. The unions ensure they're not fired for incompetency and regularly get paid. Recent steps to privatize the PSUs in stages have been progressing well, hopefully that helps improve the situation

In terms of development, a lot improved lately. I know we were extremely sloppy during the development phase of LCA Mk-1 coupled with the sanctions and lack of funds made it worse but it helped is in setting up several test facilities, bring on board both educational/research institutes and private firms along with development of technologies needed for a fighter jet. No wonder the design phase for MWF (Tejas Mk-2) has been done at a rapid pace and metal cutting started for initial prototypes with first flight scheduled for 2023. Many foreign sub-systems/components integrated in Mk-1 will be replaced with indigenous alternatives which have already been developed and undergoing active testing like Uttam AESA radar, avionics and EW suite, multiple weapons etc and their later iterations will be used in AMCA

It goes both ways too - the LCA specs were repeatedly revised by the IAF that caused delays as well.

That's a tactic until a few years ago actively exploited by both IAF & IA to kill any indigenous project so they can end up with a foreign product and receive kickbacks. For instance, the Arjun MBT project faced a ton of changes in requirements/specs and most of them were unreasonable (requiring complete re-design from scratch) and unrealistic deadlines

IN was significantly better in this regard and mostly went for indigenous platforms unless the tech isn't available in-house and only looked for foreign products in certain sub-systems. Even there, IN pushed for joint ventures like Barak-8 (MR-SAM) or Brahmos

 

[SQ8]

There is a huge difference between how things are handled in public vs private sector in India. There is a reason why they term PSU work culture as "chai-biscut" culture since all they do is drink gallons of chain and chit-chat all day long. The unions ensure they're not fired for incompetency and regularly get paid. Recent steps to privatize the PSUs in stages have been progressing well, hopefully that helps improve the situation

In terms of development, a lot improved lately. I know we were extremely sloppy during the development phase of LCA Mk-1 coupled with the sanctions and lack of funds made it worse but it helped is in setting up several test facilities, bring on board both educational/research institutes and private firms along with development of technologies needed for a fighter jet. No wonder the design phase for MWF (Tejas Mk-2) has been done at a rapid pace and metal cutting started for initial prototypes with first flight scheduled for 2023. Many foreign sub-systems/components integrated in Mk-1 will be replaced with indigenous alternatives which have already been developed and undergoing active testing like Uttam AESA radar, avionics and EW suite, multiple weapons etc and their later iterations will be used in AMCA

That's a tactic until a few years ago actively exploited by both IAF & IA to kill any indigenous project so they can end up with a foreign product and receive kickbacks. For instance, the Arjun MBT project faced a ton of changes in requirements/specs and most of them were unreasonable (requiring complete re-design from scratch) and unrealistic deadlines

IN was significantly better in this regard and mostly went for indigenous platforms unless the tech isn't available in-house and only looked for foreign products in certain sub-systems. Even there, IN pushed for joint ventures like Barak-8 (MR-SAM) or Brahmos

It seems the IN mirrors the PN in the culture with the PA and PAF behaving close to those counterparts. Im guessing that has to do with the dominant nature of the IA->IAF->IN as well.

Regardless of alliances or emotions right now the land threats to India will wrap up one way or another and the focus will be on securing resources abroad and supply chains where an expanded IN will sorely be needed.

I am surprised that the MWF and AMCA are progressing in parallel when many of their roles/capabilities overlap to some extent. Might make more sense to focus on AMCA for economies of scale purposes.