Nothing less than the very best for PAF

[CriticalThought]

Continuing discussion here because I am not allowed to post in the other thread.

@Khafee

First of all, if whatever I have written has caused bad feelings for you, I apologize sincerely. The heart of a fellow Muslim brother is more precious than anything else in the world. I hope you will not hold any grudge against me personally.

Now, for your points:

For the statement you have made you have my heartfelt sympathies. Just to update you, the M2k-9 stands for Mirage2000-9 built by Dassault of France, and NOT the UAE Air Force.

Btw, our first four Air Chiefs were Pakistani, we have always had trainers / instructors form PAF, either on deputation, or on contracts. So if they haven't imparted any knowledge, or refined our air war doctrines, then it is a sad day for PAF, and Pakistanis as a whole, as well. Please accept my heartfelt condolences.

This is the same argument made by another poster on the other thread. Let's go through a thought experiment. My qualifications in the world of aviation are exactly ZERO. I have never flown an aircraft, much less an advanced fighter jet. In our thought experiment, I somehow gain the connections and resources to give my specs to Dassault for a custom version of Rafale. Nobody in the world would buy these jets from me just because Dassault made them and they are Rafale. People will take a very close look at specs. On the other hand, if a customized Rafale fighter was in service in the USAF, and I raised any kinds of doubt about the customizations, I would get kicked out of here faster than I can say 'bad'.

The case of UAE giving specs sits in the middle of these two extremes. Please don't take this personally. Look at it without emotions: no amount of training from even the best trainers in the world equals actual combat experience. This is a statement of fact that none would deny. It doesn't mean that M2K-9s are a complete write-off. If I could objectively analyse the details and it turned out they are truly marvellous, I would be the first one to defend them.

In the real world, this principle is applied everywhere. US news proudly announced that F-22 has seen first combat experience in Syria. People vie for this accomplishment. And if the F-22 never saw any combat, even USAF personnel would run circles around its efficacy.

Do not forget to let the PAF know, that since the M2k-9 "does not inspire trust in you," you would rather not see it in PAF colors, IF an opportunity arises.

Yes, this is true, and hence the title of this thread. And my position is based on a valid doctrine: we MUST get on top of the technology curve. The opportunity to replace a significant part of aircraft inventory rarely arises for airforces. It is an occasion for reflection and setting aims for the future.

If at this juncture, we acquire gen 4 technology, we will be locked into it for the next 30 years. Again, apologies if words like 'junk' caused consternation for you, but admittedly that was hyperbole to drive home the point into the minds of fellow countrymen. No matter what we do, at all costs we have to go for top of the line technology. Our fighter pilots are worthy of, and deserve, as much.

Nothing but the best for PAF.

 

[Khafee]

Good thread - I will reply - give me some time.

In the mean time, pls go through all my posts and edit the OP.

Thanks!

 

[BHarwana]

Thank you for your article and Thank you for the discussion. As this thread has an open prospective to discuss the technology and aeronautical designing it will provide more room for discussion. In the helm of development the criticism is most useful tool for improvement.

 

[ali_raza]

Good thread - I will reply - give me some time.

In the mean time, pls go through all my posts and edit the OP.

Thanks!

always love ur analysis sir

 

[araz]

Continuing discussion here because I am not allowed to post in the other thread.

@Khafee

First of all, if whatever I have written has caused bad feelings for you, I apologize sincerely. The heart of a fellow Muslim brother is more precious than anything else in the world. I hope you will not hold any grudge against me personally.

Now, for your points:



This is the same argument made by another poster on the other thread. Let's go through a thought experiment. My qualifications in the world of aviation are exactly ZERO. I have never flown an aircraft, much less an advanced fighter jet. In our thought experiment, I somehow gain the connections and resources to give my specs to Dassault for a custom version of Rafale. Nobody in the world would buy these jets from me just because Dassault made them and they are Rafale. People will take a very close look at specs. On the other hand, if a customized Rafale fighter was in service in the USAF, and I raised any kinds of doubt about the customizations, I would get kicked out of here faster than I can say 'bad'.

The case of UAE giving specs sits in the middle of these two extremes. Please don't take this personally. Look at it without emotions: no amount of training from even the best trainers in the world equals actual combat experience. This is a statement of fact that none would deny. It doesn't mean that M2K-9s are a complete write-off. If I could objectively analyse the details and it turned out they are truly marvellous, I would be the first one to defend them.

In the real world, this principle is applied everywhere. US news proudly announced that F-22 has seen first combat experience in Syria. People vie for this accomplishment. And if the F-22 never saw any combat, even USAF personnel would run circles around its efficacy.



Yes, this is true, and hence the title of this thread. And my position is based on a valid doctrine: we MUST get on top of the technology curve. The opportunity to replace a significant part of aircraft inventory rarely arises for airforces. It is an occasion for reflection and setting aims for the future.

If at this juncture, we acquire gen 4 technology, we will be locked into it for the next 30 years. Again, apologies if words like 'junk' caused consternation for you, but admittedly that was hyperbole to drive home the point into the minds of fellow countrymen. No matter what we do, at all costs we have to go for top of the line technology. Our fighter pilots are worthy of, and deserve, as much.

Nothing but the best for PAF.

A very good post and I like the style which is one of discussion rather than an argument. One can only learn from another in this form of dialogue, SO PLEASE ACCEPT MY COMPLIMENTS.
UAEAF has had a lot of input from PAF and a lot of their analysis has in the past been done by PAF. PAF was initially kept out of the loop when the M2Ks came to the UAE but that changed soon, so PAf has a particularly good idea about the capabilities of the M2K9s. UAE AF has come a long ways since the 70s and 80sand its core has developed amazingly well and it has some good pilots.
Your point about training does not hold true. M2Ks have seen action in the gulf war but not flown by UAEAF so it is a battle proven platform. As to the pilots most of the current PAF and IAF has not seen any action yet are they incapable? Regarding the USAF,I could counter argue that none of its adversaries have had a strong air force so if their planes have downed a few Migs or other planes which are technologically so inferior as to be more or less cannon fodder does one call it experience and potency of platform. However we take US advancements in armaments and platform as gospel truth and rightly so! The point to prove is that in modern battle field there has not been an encounter of a comparatively balanced air power to prove the potency of one weapon system over others. yet we say X is better than Y based on specs and equipment.
I think we have to accept that the UAEAF has chosen its platforms with care and caution. It has gradually built capabilities in house and progressed on as allowed. There are limitations imposed by the population pool. its education levels and a general tendencies towards a certain field, which means that the progress has been slow. however there has been progress none the less.
I fully agree with your assumption that the time for a 4th generation platform in PAF is fast receeding and in order to keep PAF relevant we need to leap the generation hoop. However the platrform and availability and cash crunch remain major hurdles. SO do we take a slow step forward(wait for 5th gen platform to become available) or a side step now (adopt a gap filler till a fith generation platform becomes available).If the latter does one make do with platforms one has access to ie JFT and the 16s or does one go for the new platform which MEANS MORE MONEY in setting up infrastructure.To me theM2K in any guise does not make sense for PAF.
Regarding the UAE M2K9s we have no idea as to when they would be available for sale as to the best of my knowledge I cant remember UAE signing a deal to get the rafale. then there are additional complexities of the french agreeing for the UAEAF to sell them on to PAF. So all in all it is a no go area which has never made sense to me and will never do especially now.
The last thing one has to consider is that if we buy the M2Ks now what impact does it have on the sale of JFTs as we are hooting to the world and their aunt that we have a best and most medern 4th generation platform in hand. I think our next major buy will be a fifth generation platform in the form of J31 if it sees the light of the day or perhaps if the J20 becomes available and there are no other choices available. The TFX is too far away to imagine it in PAF colours.
Regards
A

 

[nang2]

The question is: at what cost?

 

[CriticalThought]

The question is: at what cost?

The answer is: at all costs. National security comes first.

 

[MastanKhan]

Continuing discussion here because I am not allowed to post in the other thread.

@Khafee

First of all, if whatever I have written has caused bad feelings for you, I apologize sincerely. The heart of a fellow Muslim brother is more precious than anything else in the world. I hope you will not hold any grudge against me personally.

Now, for your points:



This is the same argument made by another poster on the other thread. Let's go through a thought experiment. My qualifications in the world of aviation are exactly ZERO. I have never flown an aircraft, much less an advanced fighter jet. In our thought experiment, I somehow gain the connections and resources to give my specs to Dassault for a custom version of Rafale. Nobody in the world would buy these jets from me just because Dassault made them and they are Rafale. People will take a very close look at specs. On the other hand, if a customized Rafale fighter was in service in the USAF, and I raised any kinds of doubt about the customizations, I would get kicked out of here faster than I can say 'bad'.

The case of UAE giving specs sits in the middle of these two extremes. Please don't take this personally. Look at it without emotions: no amount of training from even the best trainers in the world equals actual combat experience. This is a statement of fact that none would deny. It doesn't mean that M2K-9s are a complete write-off. If I could objectively analyse the details and it turned out they are truly marvellous, I would be the first one to defend them.

In the real world, this principle is applied everywhere. US news proudly announced that F-22 has seen first combat experience in Syria. People vie for this accomplishment. And if the F-22 never saw any combat, even USAF personnel would run circles around its efficacy.



Yes, this is true, and hence the title of this thread. And my position is based on a valid doctrine: we MUST get on top of the technology curve. The opportunity to replace a significant part of aircraft inventory rarely arises for airforces. It is an occasion for reflection and setting aims for the future.

If at this juncture, we acquire gen 4 technology, we will be locked into it for the next 30 years. Again, apologies if words like 'junk' caused consternation for you, but admittedly that was hyperbole to drive home the point into the minds of fellow countrymen. No matter what we do, at all costs we have to go for top of the line technology. Our fighter pilots are worthy of, and deserve, as much.

Nothing but the best for PAF.

Hi,

You are incorrect in your analysis overall.

First of all---when you write---you don't start with " I don't know about this or that "---because if you don't know about the machine---you are not qualified to start a discussion about it either---.

When your foundations of argument / discussion are based on FLAWED information or assessment---the building that you are trying to build on it is a house of cards---.

As you do not know the WEAPONS world---that is why you would say that---" who would buy from me ".

It is the name---the name has already been established---it is manufactured by a world super power---western super power---so by DEFAULT it would be potent---.

It is the frontline aircraft of that super power---meaning---for that super power to maintain and manage its status quo---that is the aircraft it would send to dominate its enemies and adversaries---.

The operational parameters of the frontline aircraft are out in the open---just by simply analyzing the past performances of their previous product---one can very easily assess the capabilities of their current product---but for that---you have to be INFORMATIVE about the general history and the operational capability of the manufacturer and the country that it represents.

There is a good old american saying----I have stated it many a times over here---and will post it again for you as well---.

When you go to a butchers's shop to buy a steak---you take the butcher's word for it---you don't stick your head in the bull's ar-se to find out if the steak is good or not.

The ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE is purely based upon assumptions and past experiences---.

As you have stated about your lack of knowledge in this subject---so please stop---stop making a lemonade without a lemon.

When these aircraft are designed and built---they are designed 20-25 years before they may see any combat---what their engineering and technology is based upon is the genaral experience of the manufacturer and the operator---the manufacturer being Dassault---the operator being the french air force----or Lockheed Martin being the manufacturer and the USAF the operator in case of the F22---.

Both the manufacturers represents the world's 2 super powers---and both the designers and manufacturers design and build their aircraft to what their perception of the need is going to be and what they are going to face and how to overcome that---.

And if they build an aircraft for another country---the product still has and shows it potency and capability that is is famous for.

So---by DEFAULT---both the design would be extremely superior designs just by the origin of their manufacturer.

It then purely depends on the needs of the end user and who they feel comfortable with.

You need to elucidate on the term SPECS---what do you mean by them---what do you understand by using them in the manner that you are.

 

[The SC]

A very good post and I like the style which is one of discussion rather than an argument. One can only learn from another in this form of dialogue, SO PLEASE ACCEPT MY COMPLIMENTS.
UAEAF has had a lot of input from PAF and a lot of their analysis has in the past been done by PAF. PAF was initially kept out of the loop when the M2Ks came to the UAE but that changed soon, so PAf has a particularly good idea about the capabilities of the M2K9s. UAE AF has come a long ways since the 70s and 80sand its core has developed amazingly well and it has some good pilots.
Your point about training does not hold true. M2Ks have seen action in the gulf war but not flown by UAEAF so it is a battle proven platform. As to the pilots most of the current PAF and IAF has not seen any action yet are they incapable? Regarding the USAF,I could counter argue that none of its adversaries have had a strong air force so if their planes have downed a few Migs or other planes which are technologically so inferior as to be more or less cannon fodder does one call it experience and potency of platform. However we take US advancements in armaments and platform as gospel truth and rightly so! The point to prove is that in modern battle field there has not been an encounter of a comparatively balanced air power to prove the potency of one weapon system over others. yet we say X is better than Y based on specs and equipment.
I think we have to accept that the UAEAF has chosen its platforms with care and caution. It has gradually built capabilities in house and progressed on as allowed. There are limitations imposed by the population pool. its education levels and a general tendencies towards a certain field, which means that the progress has been slow. however there has been progress none the less.
I fully agree with your assumption that the time for a 4th generation platform in PAF is fast receeding and in order to keep PAF relevant we need to leap the generation hoop. However the platrform and availability and cash crunch remain major hurdles. SO do we take a slow step forward(wait for 5th gen platform to become available) or a side step now (adopt a gap filler till a fith generation platform becomes available).If the latter does one make do with platforms one has access to ie JFT and the 16s or does one go for the new platform which MEANS MORE MONEY in setting up infrastructure.To me theM2K in any guise does not make sense for PAF.
Regarding the UAE M2K9s we have no idea as to when they would be available for sale as to the best of my knowledge I cant remember UAE signing a deal to get the rafale. then there are additional complexities of the french agreeing for the UAEAF to sell them on to PAF. So all in all it is a no go area which has never made sense to me and will never do especially now.
The last thing one has to consider is that if we buy the M2Ks now what impact does it have on the sale of JFTs as we are hooting to the world and their aunt that we have a best and most medern 4th generation platform in hand. I think our next major buy will be a fifth generation platform in the form of J31 if it sees the light of the day or perhaps if the J20 becomes available and there are no other choices available. The TFX is too far away to imagine it in PAF colours.
Regards
A

Although I agree with you on the time of delivery question among many other variables for the procurement of the M2K-9 and also preferring the J-31option, I still do not see how a medium weight fighter plane would affect the image or sales of the light weight JF-17..!?

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

You are incorrect in your analysis overall.

First of all---when you write---you don't start with " I don't know about this or that "---because if you don't know about the machine---you are not qualified to start a discussion about it either---.

When your foundations of argument / discussion are based on FLAWED information or assessment---the building that you are trying to build on it is a house of cards---.

As you do not know the WEAPONS world---that is why you would say that---" who would buy from me ".

It is the name---the name has already been established---it is manufactured by a world super power---western super power---so by DEFAULT it would be potent---.

It is the frontline aircraft of that super power---meaning---for that super power to maintain and manage its status quo---that is the aircraft it would send to dominate its enemies and adversaries---.

The operational parameters of the frontline aircraft are out in the open---just by simply analyzing the past performances of their previous product---one can very easily assess the capabilities of their current product---but for that---you have to be INFORMATIVE about the general history and the operational capability of the manufacturer and the country that it represents.

There is a good old american saying----I have stated it many a times over here---and will post it again for you as well---.

When you go to a butchers's shop to buy a steak---you take the butcher's word for it---you don't stick your head in the bull's ar-se to find out if the steak is good or not.

The ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE is purely based upon assumptions and past experiences---.

As you have stated about your lack of knowledge in this subject---so please stop---stop making a lemonade without a lemon.

When these aircraft are designed and built---they are designed 20-25 years before they may see any combat---what their engineering and technology is based upon is the genaral experience of the manufacturer and the operator---the manufacturer being Dassault---the operator being the french air force----or Lockheed Martin being the manufacturer and the USAF the operator in case of the F22---.

Both the manufacturers represents the world's 2 super powers---and both the designers and manufacturers design and build their aircraft to what their perception of the need is going to be and what they are going to face and how to overcome that---.

And if they build an aircraft for another country---the product still has and shows it potency and capability that is is famous for.

So---by DEFAULT---both the design would be extremely superior designs just by the origin of their manufacturer.

It then purely depends on the needs of the end user and who they feel comfortable with.

You need to elucidate on the term SPECS---what do you mean by them---what do you understand by using them in the manner that you are.

@Horus @Oscar @Zaki @WebMaster This troll is literally stalking me on multiple threads and even after repeated warnings is continuing in his insulting manner. This is preposterous and needs to stop. I have started this thread to answer @Khafee and somehow this person thinks he can butt into other people's discussions. Senior or not, his behavior is despicable. I don't want to descend down to his level and start a name calling match.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Read that post 10 times and you will learn something. Stop crying like a sissy, if you can't take criticism, stop coming to internet forums. Counter him with valid points instead of hiding behind the mods.

@Horus @Oscar @Zaki @WebMaster This troll is literally stalking me on multiple threads and even after repeated warnings is continuing in his insulting manner. This is preposterous and needs to stop. I have started this thread to answer @Khafee and somehow this person thinks he can butt into other people's discussions. Senior or not, his behavior is despicable. I don't want to descend down to his level and start a name calling match.

 

[CriticalThought]

Read that post 10 times and you will learn something. Stop crying like a sissy, if you can't take criticism, stop coming to internet forums. Counter him with valid points instead of hiding behind the mods.

I have complained about his rude and crass personal attacks, not his criticism. Until he learns to respect others I find no reason to engage with him. As far as his 'points' are concerned, he is trying to overwhelm by using a lot of words to describe very little. I can refute them easily if he adopts a more civilized manner. I was going to give a similar reply to Araz, but been very busy lately so only posting short replies these days.

 

[Thorough Pro]

here is a good talk for anyone who wants to listen and learn.......

It's lengthy, but worth every second

I have complained about his rude and crass personal attacks, not his criticism. Until he learns to respect others I find no reason to engage with him. As far as his 'points' are concerned, he is trying to overwhelm by using a lot of words to describe very little. I can refute them easily if he adopts a more civilized manner. I was going to give a similar reply to Araz, but been very busy lately so only posting short replies these days.

 

[MastanKhan]

I have complained about his rude and crass personal attacks, not his criticism. Until he learns to respect others I find no reason to engage with him. As far as his 'points' are concerned, he is trying to overwhelm by using a lot of words to describe very little. I can refute them easily if he adopts a more civilized manner. I was going to give a similar reply to Araz, but been very busy lately so only posting short replies these days.

Hi,

If you understand the weapons industry---you would not be saying these things that you are---.

Weapons industry is like no other industry---. You spend you blood and sweat money on something that you may never use in your lifetime and may use 20-30 years down the line and then you expect it to excel at what it does---give you a 110%.

Sometimes---we do not get the results in our life time---. Just like Rajiv Gandhi---. He got pummelled by the opposition for buying the Bofors 155 mm cannons---there were issues of quality---reliability---kick backs and what not---him and congress got plastered over it---he never got to see his name cleared in his lifetime---.

It ended up at kargil---those 155mm cannons were at the end of their life cycle---but did they prove their mettle---Rajiv's name was vindicated---. Indeed the swedes make great weapons---you can close your eyes and buy them.

Why do you think that Rafale is such a potent aircraft---because of its Pedigree Mirage 2 K---and why is mirage 2 k so potent---because of its pedigree Mirage 3 / 5 & Mirage F1. There is a history of success stories behind the lineage.

Now---come back to Pakistan and Paf---they reject the F7PG---china keeps asking them to check them out---but Paf keeps saying no---we already have them they are inferior and---well late 90's issue between pakistan and inda heat up---Paf runs to get the F7PG's---find out that they were even superior to what the chinese had promised.

So---what does that means---it is not the aircraft that has problems---it is our inner prejudices---kickbacks---personal likes and dislikes at higher level that are the issues---. The aircraft has fascinating capabilities---. If Rafale is a 10---then Mirage 2000-9 is a 9.5----.

Last but not the least----you don't live in ether---. Yesterday an enemy sub popped up in your backyard---you thumbed your nose at the world by giving china you port in the arabian seas---. You gave access to the chinese naval vessels the port facilities---you have readied 2 divisions of troops to protect the assets of Cpec---you are changing the power positioning of the world super powers---yet you have a large shortage of fighter / strike aircraft in inventory and still you show no urgency in acquiring something on a fastrak.

So---my question is---even with all your shortcomings that you have admitted to---are you really able to assess what pakistan's need is to defend its air space now?

What I am saying is that your very basic fundamentals of the discussion are flawed---how are you going to overcome that flaw---?

This is war---you have to fight the battle---the enemy is going to shed blood---your military is going to shed blood---where is your preparation and equipment to fight the war that may start tomorrow.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Hi,

If you understand the weapons industry---you would not be saying these things that you are---.

Weapons industry is like no other industry---. You spend you blood and sweat money on something that you may never use in your lifetime and may use 20-30 years down the line and then you expect it to excel at what it does---give you a 110%.

Sometimes---we do not get the results in our life time---. Just like Rajiv Gandhi---. He got pummelled by the opposition for buying the Bofors 155 mm cannons---there were issues of quality---reliability---kick backs and what not---him and congress got plastered over it---he never got to see his name cleared in his lifetime---.

It ended up at kargil---those 155mm cannons were at the end of their life cycle---but did they prove their mettle---Rajiv's name was vindicated---. Indeed the swedes make great weapons---you can close your eyes and buy them.

Why do you think that Rafale is such a potent aircraft---because of its Pedigree Mirage 2 K---and why is mirage 2 k so potent---because of its pedigree Mirage 3 / 5 & Mirage F1. There is a history of success stories behind the lineage.

Now---come back to Pakistan and Paf---they reject the F7PG---china keeps asking them to check them out---but Paf keeps saying no---we already have them they are inferior and---well late 90's issue between pakistan and inda heat up---Paf runs to get the F7PG's---find out that they were even superior to what the chinese had promised.

So---what does that means---it is not the aircraft that has problems---it is our inner prejudices---kickbacks---personal likes and dislikes at higher level that are the issues---. The aircraft has fascinating capabilities---. If Rafale is a 10---then Mirage 2000-9 is a 9.5----.

Last but not the least----you don't live in ether---. Yesterday an enemy sub popped up in your backyard---you thumbed your nose at the world by giving china you port in the arabian seas---. You gave access to the chinese naval vessels the port facilities---you have readied 2 divisions of troops to protect the assets of Cpec---you are changing the power positioning of the world super powers---yet you have a large shortage of fighter / strike aircraft in inventory and still you show no urgency in acquiring something on a fastrak.

So---my question is---even with all your shortcomings that you have admitted to---are you really able to assess what pakistan's need is to defend its air space now?

What I am saying is that your very basic fundamentals of the discussion are flawed---how are you going to overcome that flaw---?

This is war---you have to fight the battle---the enemy is going to shed blood---your military is going to shed blood---where is your preparation and equipment to fight the war that may start tomorrow.

Hi Khan,

Just curious to know about your comments regarding latest Pakistani missile tests. Whats your view on it ? I have not seen your posts in Ababeel and Babur 3 topics. Its quite evident that your expertise are in airforce matters but nevertheless your detail view will be a good read for readers like me.