Not so secular India

[KS]

Sure. You welcome Indian Muslims but not their alien religion. Sophistry of the finest order.

As I said you are unable to reconcile with the concepts that are simple enough for us to understand and you give out various adjectives to them - 'sophistry','dance of words' etc.

Er, they did their "dirty" work under the protection of those evil Muslim conquerors. N'est-ce pas?

So take your pick - were the Muslim kings/Sufis not welcomed and consequently the imposition had to be doe by the sword or nthe Sufis were welcomed and were able to preach their spiritual ideas to propagate their religion ?

Oh BTW are we forgetting the Arab Muslims who arrived in Kerala before the actual Islamic invasions and are still living in Kerala in harmony with their neighbours ?

Where did I ever imply that communalists and Marxists were secular? I only listed these three groups as being in a big conspiracy against the valiant Hindutva.

And all I said was 'true' secularists cannot conspire against Hindutva because the core philosophy of Hinduism/Hindutva is the acceptance of multiple paths to Nirvana - a concept the modern world knows as 'secularism'.

They may be the 'pseudo-secularists', a phrase eerily similar to your own 'liberal fascists'.

Um. Try this post of yours for the first reference to Arabs:

*facepalm* .

That link was given to show that how Sachar committee report was one big political tamasha and not for any direct reference to the Arabs. Why getting jumpy on the mention of the word Arabs and that too not even in a direct reference to them ? Confused about who you are ? Idealogically Arab ?

---------- Post added at 05:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 AM ----------

It seem you are one of them

Three flats refused because I am a non-vegan and am a bachelor. Double whammy.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Three flats refused because I am a non-vegan and am a bachelor. Double whammy.

So what? still it dont make sense for them to refuse it as you will not force them to eat meat..why they are not open minded and respect the right of peoples to eat whatever they wish in their houses. I don't eat pork but that dont mean i should discriminate those who eat it

To be honest i can expect from desi peopels to refuse giving flats to others because of their religion as there are many peoples who have negative opinions about different religion and they judge them based on their religion instead of their individual character. May be shabana was refused becuase of reasons you gave here or may be she was refused because of her religion. we dont know for sure but we are sure that she did not felt good

 

[Developereo]

As I said you are unable to reconcile with the concepts that are simple enough for us to understand and you give out various adjectives to them - 'sophistry','dance of words' etc.

The only thing I am unable to reconcile is your attempt to dodge responsibility for your own words. Your statements are self-contradictory and, to defend the indefensible, you accuse others of not understanding you.

Your ideology is steeped in intolerance and bigotry, as documented by yourown statements. No amount of hand-waving and sophistry will hide the truth.

So take your pick - were the Muslim kings/Sufis not welcomed and consequently the imposition had to be doe by the sword or nthe Sufis were welcomed and were able to preach their spiritual ideas to propagate their religion ?

Once again, you are deliberately mixing two concepts: one was an invasion by military men which resulted in conquest. The other were ordinary citizens who inspired other ordinary citizens to follow their example. Nobody was forcing anybody to follow their example The Mughal rule also inspired local variations of Islamic art and culture -- it doesn't mean those 'alien' items were forcibly imposed on the 'indigenous' culture.

Oh BTW are we forgetting the Arab Muslims who arrived in Kerala before the actual Islamic invasions and are still living in Kerala in harmony with their neighbours ?

Already addressed previously. Groups that were small enough and non-threatening were tolerated, like Jews, Parsis, some Christians. The Hindutva response to Christians in the south today is rife with conflict.

And all I said was 'true' secularists cannot conspire against Hindutva because the core philosophy of Hinduism/Hindutva is the acceptance of multiple paths to Nirvana - a concept the modern world knows as 'secularism'.

So 'secularism' is 'the acceptance of multiple paths to Nirvana'? In what universe?

Now I am sure you will dance your way around this and say you are 'misunderstood'.

*facepalm* .

That link was given to show that how Sachar committee report was one big political tamasha and not for any direct reference to the Arabs. Why getting jumpy on the mention of the word Arabs and that too not even in a direct reference to them

Your link was provided to debunk Sachar. The Arab connection was one of the arguments used in that supposed debunking, hence the validity of contesting the alleged debunking.

 

[harshad]

So what? still it dont make sense for them to refuse it as you will not force them to eat meat..why they are not open minded and respect the right of peoples to eat whatever they wish in their houses. I don't eat pork but that dont mean i should discriminate those who eat it

To be honest i can expect from desi peopels to refuse giving flats to others because of their religion as there are many peoples who have negative opinions about different religion and they judge them based on their religion instead of their individual character. May be shabana was refused becuase of reasons you gave here or may be she was refused because of her religion. we dont know for sure but we are sure that she did not felt good

brahmins,jains mostly dont rent flats to non-veg hindus,muslims,christians,etc because they dont want people to cook meat in their house even if rented it is their house someday they will come back and eat in the same vessel a person cooked meat so its natural for them to reject,many even reject bachlors as they are considered miscrients and might tease the girls in neighbourhood
people also ban from selling flats to non veg eaters in many jain and brahmin dominated buildings,it has nothing to do with secularism or tolerance it their faith
there are as many people who would give a flat to person from any religion for a good price unless objected by onther people from the building

 

[Novice09]

So what? still it dont make sense for them to refuse it as you will not force them to eat meat..why they are not open minded and respect the right of peoples to eat whatever they wish in their houses. I don't eat pork but that dont mean i should discriminate those who eat it

To be honest i can expect from desi peopels to refuse giving flats to others because of their religion as there are many peoples who have negative opinions about different religion and they judge them based on their religion instead of their individual character. May be shabana was refused becuase of reasons you gave here or may be she was refused because of her religion. we dont know for sure but we are sure that she did not felt good

Being an owner of that house they are free to accommodate someone at their own terms... we have to respect their rights too...

 

[Roybot]

Give it a rest guys, we know India is secular country. No point trying to convince people from the land of blasphemy law.

I don't see anyone conceding in this debate. Pakistanis should visit India and see for themselves. Or ask Pakistanis who have relatives in India.

So yeah give it a rest.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Give it a rest guys, we know India is secular country. No point trying to convince people from the land of blasphemy law.

I don't see anyone conceding in this debate. Pakistanis should visit India and see for themselves. Or ask Pakistanis who have relatives in India.

So yeah give it a rest.

Damn! someone should come up with a secularism index

 

[KS]

The only thing I am unable to reconcile is your attempt to dodge responsibility for your own words. Your statements are self-contradictory and, to defend the indefensible, you accuse others of not understanding you.

Your ideology is steeped in intolerance and bigotry, as documented by yourown statements. No amount of hand-waving and sophistry will hide the truth.

No point is trying to explain you the simple truth that 'Hindutva' and 'secularism' is not self-contradictory...rather they complement each other and go hand in hand.

But then Pakistani's own experiment in religion has misfired on them so badly that they are not able to understand things from a different pov.

<....> The other were ordinary citizens who inspired other ordinary citizens to follow their example. Nobody was forcing anybody to follow their example <.....>

Exactly.How would that have been possible if the locals were hostile to them in the first place ? If they were not hostile, then by default that means, they accepted them peacefully.

Already addressed previously. Groups that were small enough and non-threatening were tolerated, like Jews, Parsis, some Christians.

Surely you dont think that the 160 million Muslims came at the same time...When they came first everyone was a small group only. Duh !

So 'secularism' is 'the acceptance of multiple paths to Nirvana'? In what universe?

In the universe of Hindu thought. It seems unless one is a Hindu it is very difficult to understand that ,that at some times it even seems contradictory. Strange & unfortunate.

Your link was provided to debunk Sachar. The Arab connection was one of the arguments used in that supposed debunking, hence the validity of contesting the alleged debunking.

Did Sachar or the debunking say anything about India 'tailoring' the Gulf population to sens some signals ? Accept it..you pulled it right out of your rear.

 

[Vinod2070]

The Islamist crowd can't even understand how a country (especially India) be secular and have the same laws for all religions.

The concept of not treating minorities as Dhimmis is just counter intuitive to them.

They have to find every justification, however absurd, to explain this strange phenomenon.

A phenomenon that is align to the vast majority of the final and perfect world.

 

[Vinod2070]

Nobody's "flying off the handle". This is the essence of the Indian troll brigade: making off-topic soapbox rants to the gallery while avoiding the topic. Like I wrote, this will garner praise from fellow Indians, but it does nothing to advance your point in the debate.

You did that again.

If you had been in a proper, real-life debate, as opposed to an internet forum, you would have been ejected long ago.

You don't get to decide that.

Players can't be judges.

This whole rant is not only silly, it shows your basic ignorance of business matters and the concpt of relation and image management. Companies, and countries, go to great lengths to present a certain image to current and potential clients.

I would recommend you don't try to make soapbox speeches on this score; it only embarrasses you by exposing your lack of understanding.

In fact you have exposed an amazing shallowness on this score.

The vast majority of Indian (and Pakistani, Chinese or any Asian country) diaspora is not employed by their countries' companies. They find their jobs with the host country's companies and busiensses.

Many start their own businesses. In the case of the gulf, they have to also feed som parasites called the "sponsors", who are nothing but lazy arses who feed off the labor of the immigrants.

Even for the very small numbers sent by Indian companies, you have nothing but some personal anecdotes, seen through the jaundiced eyes of someone from an extremist Islamist society that puts the sectarian spin on everything.

And tries to explain away every "anomaly", like the Indian treatment of Muslims (which is supposedly only due to Arab oil!).

You know why? Because you don't know any better.

And that is the curse.

Your passion blinds you to realities. Contrary to your assertions, the vast majority do not go to foreign countries on their own volition -- certainly not to the Gulf which has very strict visa regimens. They have to be explicitly sponsored by companies.

But, then again, why let reality interfere with soapbox rants?

Answered above.

Which companies sponsor the millions of Pakistanis in the gulf?

The same ones "sponsor" the Indian diaspora and they are not Indian companies.

The "you" in this context was the Hindutva philosophy. The claim was that Hindutva is compatible with secularism because it is tolerant and 'welcoming' of all faiths.

Again, soapbox speeches are no substitute for actual debate.

It was about our (common) ancestors. Though the common bit makes you uncomfortable.

I am not responsible for your lack of real world experience. It's not that people go around asking everyone's religion; these facts come out in normal relationships, when things like Christmas, Diwali or Eid approach.

Your assumptions. I have personal and deep friendships with some Americans, been at their homes, gone with them to attend the school functions of their kids and tried to understand the American culture with them.

So yes, I have normal relations with Westerners and I have not seen the bigotry in general.

Though of course, I don't expect you to believe this.

Once again, it's all about image management. You won't learn it from a forum; you have to pay attention to it in real life.

Its all about your "need" to explain it all.

However folloish those explanations may be.

Like that Indian diaspora explanation!

Spare us the revisionist self-righteousness. We all know why you have contempt for "converts" and their "alien" religion.

You "know" so many things.

But then you don't really.

I have explained myself as clearly as I can. I have contempt for the negation of identity and history on the part of the converts.

 

[Developereo]

Exactly.How would that have been possible if the locals were hostile to them in the first place ? If they were not hostile, then by default that means, they accepted them peacefully.

The rulers maintained law and order preventing hostile locals from murdering the Sufis. It does not mean they supported the Sufis through force. Ordinary people were then free to chose their path, with the Sufis or without, without fear of retribution from Hindutva extremists. If force had been involved, then everyone under their rule would have converted -- and converted back after they left.

Surely you dont think that the 160 million Muslims came at the same time...When they came first everyone was a small group only. Duh !

Most of the 160 million never "came" from outside. They were the dreaded "converts"!

In the universe of Hindu thought. It seems unless one is a Hindu it is very difficult to understand that ,that at some times it even seems contradictory. Strange & unfortunate.

This "tolerance for multiple paths to Nirvana" may be your definition of Hindutva -- even if we overlook the blatant lie and play along -- but this has nothing to do with secularism.

Did Sachar or the debunking say anything about India 'tailoring' the Gulf population to sens some signals ? Accept it..you pulled it right out of your rear.

Of course the link didn't say that: they were trying to use the Gulf Muslims as evidence to debunk Sachar. The tailoring explanation is the response to the alleged debunking to show why it does not invalidate Sachar in any way.

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------

You did that again.



You don't get to decide that.

Players can't be judges.



In fact you have exposed an amazing shallowness on this score.

The vast majority of Indian (and Pakistani, Chinese or any Asian country) diaspora is not employed by their countries' companies. They find their jobs with the host country's companies and busiensses.

Many start their own businesses. In the case of the gulf, they have to also feed som parasites called the "sponsors", who are nothing but lazy arses who feed off the labor of the immigrants.

Even for the very small numbers sent by Indian companies, you have nothing but some personal anecdotes, seen through the jaundiced eyes of someone from an extremist Islamist society that puts the sectarian spin on everything.

And tries to explain away every "anomaly", like the Indian treatment of Muslims (which is supposedly only due to Arab oil!).

You know why? Because you don't know any better.

And that is the curse.



Answered above.

Which companies sponsor the millions of Pakistanis in the gulf?

The same ones "sponsor" the Indian diaspora and they are not Indian companies.



It was about our (common) ancestors. Though the common bit makes you uncomfortable.


Your assumptions. I have personal and deep friendships with some Americans, been at their homes, gone with them to attend the school functions of their kids and tried to understand the American culture with them.

So yes, I have normal relations with Westerners and I have not seen the bigotry in general.

Though of course, I don't expect you to believe this.



Its all about your "need" to explain it all.

However folloish those explanations may be.

Like that Indian diaspora explanation!



You "know" so many things.

But then you don't really.

I have explained myself as clearly as I can. I have contempt for the negation of identity and history on the part of the converts.

Other than silly personal attacks, there is only point that I can find in this post.

Nobody's accusing Westerners of bigotry, as you assert. It is precisely the Indians who project their own twisted version of bigotry to try to portray an image which often ends up amusing the clients by its silly transparency.

 

[Vinod2070]

Other than silly personal attacks, there is only point that I can find in this post.

Nobody's accusing Westerners of bigotry, as you assert. It is precisely the Indians who project their own twisted version of bigotry to try to portray an image which often ends up amusing the clients by its silly transparency.

I can't be bothered to answer such tripe. Let the readers decide what they would.

For me, more than the mental gymnastics shown here, what was really amusing was the need felt for that gymnastics.

That one actually has to "justify" the superior Indian treatment of its minority population as deferring to "Arab oil", conjecture wild scenarios of what will happen when the Arab oil runs out, even put wild conjectures on individual private Indian companies' policies and so on.

It was funny in the extreme.

We understand the need though. It has been made clear often enough in this thread.

Every bloody day. Oh, the bloody curse!

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

brahmins,jains mostly dont rent flats to non-veg hindus,muslims,christians,etc because they dont want people to cook meat in their house even if rented it is their house someday they will come back and eat in the same vessel a person cooked meat so its natural for them to reject,many even reject bachlors as they are considered miscrients and might tease the girls in neighbourhood
people also ban from selling flats to non veg eaters in many jain and brahmin dominated buildings,it has nothing to do with secularism or tolerance it their faith
there are as many people who would give a flat to person from any religion for a good price unless objected by onther people from the building

I don't think you will be able to see the tragedy here. State has secular laws that peoples should not discriminate others based on their religion, colour, race, caste etc while on the other side peoples/leaders/police of secular state are extreme religious who discriminate others based on their religion or what they eat. Secular laws exist on papers but because peoples are not secular so they don't follow these laws and you cannot even force them. When we say secularism give equal respect to all religion. What does it mean when we cannot tolerate peoples belong to different religion/caste eating meat in their houses. If someone pay rent for house or flat then he should have right to eat whatever he desire. The landlord is not sharing food with them so he should not bother what they eat in their rented houses.

Another problem is caste system still play a major role in religious, social and cultural matters of indians which is against secular principles. If secular country treat everyone equally and give respect to all members of the society then why they thought the need to have quota system for minorities and lower castes? How this quota system is compatible with secular laws where laws are same for everyone? Again peoples from different religions have different marriage/divorce laws which is not secular either

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Being an owner of that house they are free to accommodate someone at their own terms... we have to respect their rights too...

imagine how you will feel if you don't get any house for rent in London areas..i am sure you will feel discrimination if they refuse to give you house because you are Indian who eat curry and their house can be dirty with curry and rotiz etc

and what if you get refuse a job by English business man simply because you are indian who eat veg..will you say that its his right to employ non veg? I am sure you will feel discriminated and will consider him racists.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

imagine how you will feel if you don't get any house for rent in London areas..i am sure you will feel discrimination if they refuse to give you house because you are Indian who eat curry and their house can be dirty with curry and rotiz etc

and what if you get refuse a job by English business man simply because you are indian who eat veg..will you say that its his right to employ non veg? I am sure you will feel discriminated and will consider him racists.

yes it is good if all people do give house, job etc to people with different religion, culture, race or habits..

while we can desire, educate and hope people to be sensible rather than narrow minded and over sensitive , govt can do little about such small small issues, because govt got other more important things to be done..
its a slippery slop..we can't be on any of the extreme ends..we need to find a right balance between individual freedom and the discrimination issue involved.