North Korea sanctions punish the whole population

[retaxis]

Wait hold on for a moment. Didn't China try and put Kim Jong Un's Uncle into power (the one that got killed by Un with anti-aircraft guns?). China has been working with loyalists to the old kim/china friendly faction within the NK party however it seems like Un is killing off the Chinese loyalists and going ape sh1t himself at everyone. China/Korea despite sanctions still give NK most of their food/energy/water etc. If they don't the NK will declare war. Its a hostage situation at present and neither side wants to deal with millions of drug addicted north koreans skipping over their borders. (Please read up on how just about all drugs are legalised and extremely cheap in NK which helps the workers work hard all day).

 

[Jlaw]

The Western press is a highly-ideologized and mission-oriented apparatus. Demonization is a method they often mobilize against perceived rivals. For that reason, any news sourced from a Western media outlet must be viewed from the perspective of the interests of the very regime that the media outlet is attached to by an "invisible hand."

They played a similar ploy against Saddam. Another one against Gaddafi. If they had any accountability left and their rival had been yet another weak nation, they would die to play it against Mr. Putin. But, of course, size and sources are important. In the end, it appeared that Mr. Putin, despite all vile and sneaky Western media attempts to demonize, became more popular and universally admired, as opposed to Mr. Obama (who is not a bad person, in essence, I believe).

DPRK government is an easy target. Think about the level of isolation they have to suffer from. When the victim is weakened and defenseless, the US will produce lots of Rambos.

When they face a tough nut like Mr. Lavrov, they will back away. Power, the language of power is the only discourse one can engage with them.

It's part of the western government strategy regardless if it's a liberal or conservative media. They all have one common goal in mind--to demonize a nation and brainwash its own people

 

[retaxis]

A sanction regime is voluntary. JPN and SKR defied the US and invested in VN while there was a sanction regime from the US against VN. So if it is unfair to blame China for doing nothing to help NKR, then it is equally unfair to blame the US who maintains the sanction regime precisely because China and anyone else have the final freedom to assist NKR.

If the US is to blame for NKR's plight, then why not China equally to blame, especially since NKR is China's creation ?

If the US refuse to trade with X country because X President is left handed, would that refusal qualify as sanction ? If yes, then it means there is an obligation to trade, which is absurd. It removes the freedom and right to association.

US has done a lot of bad things in the world in latin america, overthrowing democratic iran, creating the taliban/isis/alqaeda, providing military/financial aid to terrorist supporters in the gulf region and the list goes on. Why do you Americans always play that moral high ground Bullsh1t? When you Americans say the word 'freedom, democracy" not only does everyone from South America, Asia and Africa laugh but even Europe laugh at your crap. Give it a rest and stop treating others like little children. You can steal from a man but don't tell him that you are helping him by stealing his TV from him.

 

[Aepsilons]

US has done a lot of bad things in the world in latin america, overthrowing democratic iran, creating the taliban/isis/alqaeda, providing military/financial aid to terrorist supporters in the gulf region and the list goes on. Why do you Americans always play that moral high ground Bullsh1t? When you Americans say the word 'freedom, democracy" not only does everyone from South America, Asia and Africa laugh but even Europe laugh at your crap. Give it a rest and stop treating others like little children. You can steal from a man but don't tell him that you are helping him by stealing his TV from him.

An excellent appraisal, @retaxis !

 

[TaiShang]

US has done a lot of bad things in the world in latin america, overthrowing democratic iran, creating the taliban/isis/alqaeda, providing military/financial aid to terrorist supporters in the gulf region and the list goes on. Why do you Americans always play that moral high ground Bullsh1t? When you Americans say the word 'freedom, democracy" not only does everyone from South America, Asia and Africa laugh but even Europe laugh at your crap. Give it a rest and stop treating others like little children. You can steal from a man but don't tell him that you are helping him by stealing his TV from him.

A sharp historical take on the issue.

As you say, the US has zero credibility and people show an almost instinctual reaction when they hear the US somehow desires to bring some democracy and freedom to somewhere.

If nothing else, people remember some 200.000 Iraqi kids died under US sanctions on medicine in Iraq in the 1990s. The US is yet another country that history and geography favored for sometime. But not anymore. US discourse is just one of the discourses out there.

 

[gambit]

US has done a lot of bad things in the world in latin america, overthrowing democratic iran, creating the taliban/isis/alqaeda, providing military/financial aid to terrorist supporters in the gulf region and the list goes on. Why do you Americans always play that moral high ground Bullsh1t? When you Americans say the word 'freedom, democracy" not only does everyone from South America, Asia and Africa laugh but even Europe laugh at your crap. Give it a rest and stop treating others like little children. You can steal from a man but don't tell him that you are helping him by stealing his TV from him.

Nice deflection from the real issue that no one is forced into participating a sanction regime.

 

[jhungary]

A sanction regime is voluntary. JPN and SKR defied the US and invested in VN while there was a sanction regime from the US against VN. So if it is unfair to blame China for doing nothing to help NKR, then it is equally unfair to blame the US who maintains the sanction regime precisely because China and anyone else have the final freedom to assist NKR.

If the US is to blame for NKR's plight, then why not China equally to blame, especially since NKR is China's creation ?

If the US refuse to trade with X country because X President is left handed, would that refusal qualify as sanction ? If yes, then it means there is an obligation to trade, which is absurd. It removes the freedom and right to association.

Lol, funny you mention sanction and Iran, do you know in a period between 80s and 90s, where the US sanction runs high, the number one company in Iran is actually Coca-Cola? The fact that sanction does not do much, even to American company as they are just as easy to applies exemption with respect to the sanction to by-pass it? Not until Iran banned all Western Product, that is where the real sanction starts.

I am not saying China were off the blame list for the NK plight, nor US should be blamed for the sanction. Rather the point being, China have little to no influence to NK now, it's quite honestly useless to ask China to do anything on North Korea issue. Thus, whatever China do or don't do is basically a non-factor to the North Korean. In fact, NK is now turning into a Threat to China by day, as much as to South Korea.

For me? They asked for it. The Chinese did not think thru the action and consequence before activating their Foreign Policy to help North Korea, anyone think North Korean having nuclear power is a good thing should have their head examine. It's not about nuclear proliferation, but rather the intention. China could have stop the NK when it meant the most, they did not do it, now, they have a unstable country sitting next to it with a handful nuke they are indeed crazy enough to use it. You can see literally from the Chinese reception on NK issue how they are literally see NK as a threat.

Problem is, on the other hand, they could not do anything about it, any sort of procedure or action will most definitely resulting a deterioriating relationship between CHina and North Korea. Hence China currently is stuck.

Again, as I said, they asked for it.

I want to further discuss this but I have to go prepare my PhD Course which start in 2 weeks time. So, if you still think I have not answer your question, I will see what I can do with my merger free time at hand

 

[gambit]

...I have to go prepare my PhD Course which start in 2 weeks time.

You sure you want to do that. You saw what the PhD degree did to our JPNese friend, no ?

 

[jhungary]

You sure you want to do that. You saw what the PhD degree did to our JPNese friend, no ?

lol.............I am sure......

I pay for the tuition already.....and he does not act like he does because of his PhD, in fact, I am not too sure about him having any sort of PhD anymore...

 

[Aepsilons]

A sharp historical take on the issue.

As you say, the US has zero credibility and people show an almost instinctual reaction when they hear the US somehow desires to bring some democracy and freedom to somewhere.

If nothing else, people remember some 200.000 Iraqi kids died under US sanctions on medicine in Iraq in the 1990s. The US is yet another country that history and geography favored for sometime. But not anymore. US discourse is just one of the discourses out there.

Not to mention the innocent Pakistani children who were killed in air strikes by US drones, my friend. I cannot begin to fathom such kind of angst experienced by our Pakistani partners.

I suppose we must conjecture on whether or not sanctions or preemptive strikes in civilian zones bring any fruitful dialogue. I deign to say ...nay...

 

[TaiShang]

Not to mention the innocent Pakistani children who were killed in air strikes by US drones, my friend. I cannot begin to fathom such kind of angst experienced by our Pakistani partners.

I suppose we must conjecture on whether or not sanctions or preemptive strikes in civilian zones bring any fruitful dialogue. I deign to say ...nay...

In fact, preemptive strike by the US on targets inside Pakistan's sovereign airspace was an abject violation of international law on legitimate self-defense as it did not meet any of the conditions delineated under the conventional notions of casus belli, in general, and jus ad bellum, in particular.

There are well-defined conditions to engage in self defense inside another nation's sovereign territory and none of the conditions were present at the time the US used drone strikes extensively.

For example, under Article 51, the application of the doctrine of self-defense should be subject to the traditional constraints of proportionality and necessity. Drone strikes were neither proportional, nor necessary.

That's why the new European system created under the treaties that constituted the Peace of Westphalia rejected altogether the doctrine of just war and recommended the creation of an international system that would be “stable and permanent,” on which rose the positivist thought of law of nations.

Yet the US oftentimes acted like a rogue state in defiance of international law and conventions.

This perhaps calls for yet another thread for an extensive debate, so I should stop here. But this is definitely something to ponder about when the US dares to lecture others about international law and norms.

 

[Kwame Brown]

US has done a lot of bad things in the world in latin america, overthrowing democratic iran, creating the taliban/isis/alqaeda, providing military/financial aid to terrorist supporters in the gulf region and the list goes on. Why do you Americans always play that moral high ground Bullsh1t? When you Americans say the word 'freedom, democracy" not only does everyone from South America, Asia and Africa laugh but even Europe laugh at your crap. Give it a rest and stop treating others like little children. You can steal from a man but don't tell him that you are helping him by stealing his TV from him.

Well said. Being that I'm a realist and not biased, I have no rebuttal.

 

[Aepsilons]

Well said. Being that I'm a realist and not biased, I have no rebuttal.

A fair thinking American patriot!

 

[gambit]

For me? They asked for it. The Chinese did not think thru the action and consequence before activating their Foreign Policy to help North Korea, anyone think North Korean having nuclear power is a good thing should have their head examine. It's not about nuclear proliferation, but rather the intention. China could have stop the NK when it meant the most, they did not do it, now, they have a unstable country sitting next to it with a handful nuke they are indeed crazy enough to use it. You can see literally from the Chinese reception on NK issue how they are literally see NK as a threat.

I do not think China sees NKR as a genuine military threat. Rather, if NKR lobs a nuke at ANYONE, China will get the blame. I do not see any way China would be able to get out of it. Whatever NKR does, China is always the first to get dragged in. China cannot afford to let anyone else discipline NKR in that if anyone else does it, China loses NKR.

A sanction regime is not discipline. As harsh as it is, a sanction regime is essentially hard persuasion, not even waterboarding, so it is not discipline. A military response is the only type of discipline that outsiders can do, but China can discipline NKR via internal politics as well as militarily. So when it comes to NKR, the burden is mainly on China IF she want to keep NKR. Everybody knows it.

 

[jhungary]

I do not think China sees NKR as a genuine military threat. Rather, if NKR lobs a nuke at ANYONE, China will get the blame. I do not see any way China would be able to get out of it. Whatever NKR does, China is always the first to get dragged in. China cannot afford to let anyone else discipline NKR in that if anyone else does it, China loses NKR.

A sanction regime is not discipline. As harsh as it is, a sanction regime is essentially hard persuasion, not even waterboarding, so it is not discipline. A military response is the only type of discipline that outsiders can do, but China can discipline NKR via internal politics as well as militarily. So when it comes to NKR, the burden is mainly on China IF she want to keep NKR. Everybody knows it.

Hold responsible, yes, China will ALWAYS be held accountable for what NK did (or in a way, did not do). This mess is created by China, and China alone, it would be quite dumb for American to try and take care of the situation.

However, on the other hand, there are no much China can do. to change the situation. Almost every solution that China can do to take care of NK would result in deteriorate of China-NK situation (Pretty much EVERYTHING except waiting for Fat Kim to die of a natural clause and hope and prey and finger cross that a sane leader will take over), and this is the last thing China want. However, as I said, there are nothing much they can do. Hence they are stuck in a hard place right now.

It's quite funny to see other (Chinese and that Japanese member) here yanking about America. Yeah, I'll bite, even if America is the big bad wolf that they claim it to be, what changes? Nothing. The problem here is not America. The problem here is and always is North Korea.