Nobody Wants to talk of peace solutions yet!!!

[jeypore]

I think that the reason there are no replies to my post is because it makes too much sense!!!!!

It does not, Why would any country compromise in front of terrorism. Did Americans talk about compromise in the face of terrorism. So, why does India? The argument of Kasab being pakistanie or not, the world knows very well that there elements of terrorist cells in Pakistan, why not pakistanie establishment work of closing them first.

The other argument is India has terrorist activities that are home grown. Given, they are from Hindu fundametalist to Islamic terror, but the main thing is they are internal and not exported. Likewise same could not be said about Pakistan.

 

[Solomon2]

Being too much Pakistan-centric, India tries to find blood on Pakistan's hand every time there is blast in India while being oblivious of homegrown problems

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, it is absolutely true that "Pakistan's hand" is involved every time there is a terrorist attack in India? The attitude of India's Muslims was made quite clear when they refused the dead terrorists a decent burial. India's Muslims may have problems, but they utterly reject terrorism as an approach to solving them. I note that the U.S. captured many Pakistani Muslims, but few or no Indian Muslims, in its seven-year War on Terror.

But the mention of "homegrown problems" is itself revealing. Probably it's there in the back of your head, that terrorism is Pakistan's home-grown problem. Regardless of what proof India has provided about the Mumbai attackers, the issue right now is nothing less than whether or not Pakistan is willing to go to war to defend state-sponsored terrorism as a tool in its conflicts with others. (The NWFP offensive was only directed at foreign militants and terror groups unaffiliated with the Pakistani government.) And at the moment, seeing the protection offered by "house arrests, the jingoism, sabre-rattling, and troop movements, the answer appears to be, "Yes, very much!"

 

[Shoaib_Sham]

What would you want India to give, " Say something that will be acceptable to India" not this plebiscite nonsense or anything involving change of borders which

plebiscite is nonsense because the outcome is already known to Indians. right? This nonsense was something which Nehru(hope u heard his name) promised to Kashmir is in U.N. This nonsense is something for which 70thousand kashmiris have lost their lives and they are ready for more. This non-sense is why two third world nations fought four wars. In fact I can now ascertain how sensible ur initial posts outlook was but still why it was kept devoid intentionally of the facts.

we all know is never going to happen.

What you want us to do then? Accept the current status? Accept LOC as Internation Border. What solution do u have? We should remain quiet and behave as if nothing has happened and Kashmiris never existed. Don’t expect us to do this. This is something we haven’t done in 60 years and wont do in next 60 years.

Issue my friend is which I know many Indians are reluctant to say is not just the Kashmir. Its the division of subcontinent that happened, since Kashmir deserves a plebiscite according to the rules of separation which Indian though accepted than but later never accepted rather digest it.
If I dont believe in Law(Division) then how come u can make me believe in its implementation (Kashmir Issue). But the irony is that they shouldn't have accepted it at the first place. You dont accept some part of laws and ignore others, either they should have accepted division and applied it completely as it was accepted by leaders of two communities or they should have rejected it completely. This half cooked acceptance and hypocrisy done by the leaders than is evident now in every move and stance that India takes on Kashmir.

 

[Prodigy17]

The other argument is India has terrorist activities that are home grown. Given, they are from Hindu fundametalist to Islamic terror, but the main thing is they are internal and not exported. Likewise same could not be said about Pakistan.

Ahmmmmm(clear throat), are you sure about india not exporting terror outside the country other than state sponsored terrorism internally????? I mean, how conveniently you guys forget LTTE baby of yours which has cost thousands of lives already in Srilanka if not millions, RAW activities in Bangladesh (if you want, i can request some bengali member to remind you), Nepal, Maldives and not to forget terrorist activities of last 60 years or so in Pakistan. Or is it that you think hindustan enjoys the divine right to perpetrate and support terror?????? If not, dont start whinning when you reap what you have sown and a humble request, face it like grown ups. It is ludicrous really to see you guys pose as victims when you are irrefutably the biggest terrorist country of South Asia heck even in the world ( slightly below the number one spot because it is not up for grab as yet). If i open account of your sponsored terror in Pakistan, it will take days to compile. So get rid of your hypocricy, if you want to debate any further.

 

[peacenik79]

Pakistan will not have peace with india until

1. KASHMIR become part of Pakistan whole....so india gives it up.

2. India reduces its military & ECONOMIC growth in particular which is making some pakistanis nervous about indian dominance hegonism in this part of the world.

3. The world particularly USA treats Pakistan WITH equal status to india.

iE NUKE DEALS & TOT with weapons deals and financial investment in the respective countries etc.

IS ALL OF THIS LIKELY TO HAPPEN ??????

Actually none of it is likely to happen. Lets analyze:

1. Already discussed. Not gonna happen.Kashmir issue will involve bilateral give and take and if you want it resolved immediately, you better have a good suggestion regarding what Pakistan will give and what it will expect India to give that will be acceptable to both countries.

2. Militarily, the issue of nuclear weapons makes India's conventional supriority redundant. In other words, India will not try to militarily destroy Pakistan because it will also be destroyed. India knows this and that is why there will be lots of noise but no war. They will however try their best to put diplomatic pressure on Pakistan. Pakistan however must not see this as a great victory of some sort and wash away the Jihadi issues which need to be resolved even if there is no Indian military pressure for the reasons that I explain below.

Economically, it is definitely possible for Pakistan to improve and maybe even compete with India. This will however need a lot of things to happen and a long term process including defeat of extremist Jihadi Taleban type forces, spending money on education instead of military so that the population becomes fully literate, peaceful borders, good economic management by country's leaders etc.

However, expecting India to reduce it's economic growth just to reassure Pakistan is again loco thinking and is not gonna happen.

3. World including USA will treat India and Pakistan as equals if their economies become comparable size which ties in to the above. At the present moment it is not likely though. The world treats China differently now mainly because of it's economic weight not because of it's nukes.

 

[Prodigy17]

Dear peacenik79, since you are new on the forum, please introduce yourself and tell us about your nationality and background.

 

[Solomon2]

We should remain quiet and behave as if nothing has happened and Kashmiris never existed. Don’t expect us to do this. This is something we haven’t done in 60 years and wont do in next 60 years.

The continued conflict, not Indian rule, has put Kashmiris through hell for much of the past sixty years! Don't you think it's inhuman to continue? Or is it simply that Pakistanis assume that because the majority of Kashmiris are Muslims, they want to be a part of Pakistan rather than India?

 

[jeypore]

Ahmmmmm(clear throat), are you sure about india not exporting terror outside the country other than state sponsored terrorism internally????? I mean, how conveniently you guys forget LTTE baby of yours which has cost thousands of lives already in Srilanka if not millions, RAW activities in Bangladesh (if you want, i can request some bengali member to remind you), Nepal, Maldives and not to forget terrorist activities of last 60 years or so in Pakistan. Or is it that you think hindustan enjoys the divine right to perpetrate and support terror?????? If not, dont start whinning when you reap what you have sown and a humble request, face it like grown ups. It is ludicrous really to see you guys pose as victims when you are irrefutably the biggest terrorist country of South Asia heck even in the world ( slightly below the number one spot because it is not up for grab as yet). If i open account of your sponsored terror in Pakistan, it will take days to compile. So get rid of your hypocricy, if you want to debate any further.

Yes, yes, yes, ready for debate anytime. And if "India is the number one spot of terrorism", I sure want you to prove it with creditable link, since you do have compilation that can fill a library.

 

[peacenik79]

plebiscite is nonsense because the outcome is already known to Indians. right? This nonsense was something which Nehru(hope u heard his name) promised to Kashmir is in U.N. This nonsense is something for which 70thousand kashmiris have lost their lives and they are ready for more. This non-sense is why two third world nations fought four wars. In fact I can now ascertain how sensible ur initial posts outlook was but still why it was kept devoid intentionally of the facts.



What you want us to do then? Accept the current status? Accept LOC as Internation Border. What solution do u have? We should remain quiet and behave as if nothing has happened and Kashmiris never existed. Don’t expect us to do this. This is something we haven’t done in 60 years and wont do in next 60 years.

Issue my friend is which I know many Indians are reluctant to say is not just the Kashmir. Its the division of subcontinent that happened, since Kashmir deserves a plebiscite according to the rules of separation which Indian though accepted than but later never accepted rather digest it.
If I dont believe in Law(Division) then how come u can make me believe in its implementation (Kashmir Issue). But the irony is that they shouldn't have accepted it at the first place. You dont accept some part of laws and ignore others, either they should have accepted division and applied it completely as it was accepted by leaders of two communities or they should have rejected it completely. This half cooked acceptance and hypocrisy done by the leaders than is evident now in every move and stance that India takes on Kashmir.

Look, never in any post of mine have I said that I have an immediate solution to the Kashmir issue. I was just replying to another post which asked said India should solve Kashmir issue first to reduce the strength of LET et. al.

However, I know that a real solution will involve give and take betwen India and Pakistan via negotiations. This process of give and take can only happen in an atmosphere of peace and trust otherwise the Jihadi lobbies and Hindutva lobbies will nix it in the bud.

So my suggestion is first create the atmosphere of peace and trust by reducing mutually sponsored terrorist activities and focus on economic growth for a few years (my estimate will be around 8-10 but I may be wrong here) to build a wide constituency for peace and then start serious negotiations on Kashmir, Siachen, Sir Creek at.al.

 

[Prodigy17]

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, it is absolutely true that "Pakistan's hand" is involved every time there is a terrorist attack in India? The attitude of India's Muslims was made quite clear when they refused the dead terrorists a decent burial. India's Muslims may have problems, but they utterly reject terrorism as an approach to solving them. I note that the U.S. captured many Pakistani Muslims, but few or no Indian Muslims, in its seven-year War on Terror.

I tried to consider the ridiculous thing but found that this is only possible if you wear right wing fascist hindu tinted glasses. I even tried to consider that every new HIV case in hindustan is the handiwork of ISI, i tried to consider that every cow slaughtered in bharat is also ISI conspiracy, i also tried to consider that Gujrat riots where thousands of muslims were murdered and raped in cold blood was part of ISI machinations carried out by ISI agents..... heck i even considered that probably it is ISI which incites the monkeys in india to come on the road and disrupt life and traffic in india to choke their economic progress because Pakistanis are "nervous" about indian economic progress, but i'm sorry my friend, it is just beyond me and should i say any sane and straight thinking person's reach, to possess those glasses which you are so proudly sporting in your head.
Indian muslims may have problems......... understatement of the century actually...... Dont forget about Naxalites, tamils, assamese, kashmiris and so many others who also have "some problem" with repression and state sponsored terrorism. And when you say Indian muslims, do you include Occupied Kashmir into this or you think that terrorists are only those fighting americans??? indians here may not agree with your statement that americans are right in thinking that there are no extremists in india. Ever heard about SIMI and indian mujahideen?????????

But the mention of "homegrown problems" is itself revealing. Probably it's there in the back of your head, that terrorism is Pakistan's home-grown problem.

Already answered above.

Regardless of what proof India has provided about the Mumbai attackers, the issue right now is nothing less than whether or not Pakistan is willing to go to war to defend state-sponsored terrorism as a tool in its conflicts with others. (The NWFP offensive was only directed at foreign militants and terror groups unaffiliated with the Pakistani government.) And at the moment, seeing the protection offered by "house arrests, the jingoism, sabre-rattling, and troop movements, the answer appears to be, "Yes, very much!"

Haven't we discussed this before in another thread. I will copy paste in next post to remind you since you seem to be suffering from some kind of memory loss.
One has to prejudiced and biased to the core to suggest that Pakistan is being jingoist, is sabre-rattling and not executing people without any proof because hindustan wants it to...... hey, we are no america and we have no gitmo or law of the jungle to do what you and your client want us to...... are we prepared to go to last to fight for our principled stand????? You are damn right, we are..... and before you treat us with anymore inimical and turgid posts, my request is back off......

 

[Prodigy17]

Yes, yes, yes, ready for debate anytime. And if "India is the number one spot of terrorism", I sure want you to prove it with creditable link, since you do have compilation that can fill a library.

I guess you have some cognitive deficiency to read and understand what you have from my post.... i never said you hold the mantle of being number one instead i said, just below number one and i also said that number one spot is not up for grab anytime soon. Does that make it any easier for you??????

Links..... I think all the relevant links are stored in your upper chamber and you may just require some shaking up to revive them. Cut the crap..........

 

[Prodigy17]

The continued conflict, not Indian rule, has put Kashmiris through hell for much of the past sixty years! Don't you think it's inhuman to continue? Or is it simply that Pakistanis assume that because the majority of Kashmiris are Muslims, they want to be a part of Pakistan rather than India?

Ok, i guess if our assumption is wrong then why dont you ask india to hold a referrendum in Kashmir to ascertain who's assumption is right, can you????? You dont know a thingy about India or Pakistan and you come here to lecture us????????? what a shame..... some neoconic, fascist lunatic is here to preach to us the virtue of morality, peace and good neighborliness........

 

[Shoaib_Sham]

Look, never in any post of mine have I said that I have an immediate solution to the Kashmir issue. I was just replying to another post which asked said India should solve Kashmir issue first to reduce the strength of LET et. al.

However, I know that a real solution will involve give and take betwen India and Pakistan via negotiations. This process of give and take can only happen in an atmosphere of peace and trust otherwise the Jihadi lobbies and Hindutva lobbies will nix it in the bud.

So my suggestion is first create the atmosphere of peace and trust by reducing mutually sponsored terrorist activities and focus on economic growth for a few years (my estimate will be around 8-10 but I may be wrong here) to build a wide constituency for peace and then start serious negotiations on Kashmir, Siachen, Sir Creek at.al.

Your one post is not coherent with your another post.
If they Indians are not ready to change borders ( and by the way changes will be in LOC not border ;LOC means that it is disputed and may change once the dispute is resolved ) than what give and take are u talking about.
Can you care elaborate what sort of give will be from Indian side?
This is not a National Assembly seats where u give and take and form coalition government. This is about the right of people of Kashmir which you in my previous posts and the Indians for last 60 years are Ignoring with criminal negligence.

 

[Awesome]

Some Indians are now complaining Pakistan is promoting the war hysteria. I'll tell you, if India really wants to say its not going to war with Pak, then simply power down you AF and remove your birds from threatening postures. We will too.

 

[peacenik79]

Your one post is not coherent with your another post.
If they Indians are not ready to change borders ( and by the way changes will be in LOC not border ;LOC means that it is disputed and may change once the dispute is resolved ) than what give and take are u talking about.
Can you care elaborate what sort of give will be from Indian side?
This is not a National Assembly seats where u give and take and form coalition government. This is about the right of people of Kashmir which you in my previous posts and the Indians for last 60 years are Ignoring with criminal negligence.

My friend, you do not understand the situation. Indians are quite happy with the status quo on the ground whether you call it border or LOC is immaterial. So long as there is no violence within India. It may be criminal negligence on the Indian part as you say but they are not gonna do something to change it just because Pakistan is saying so. They have not done it for 60+ years of Pakstan ranting about it in every forum possible.

In other words simply ranting will not solve the problem.

I dont know what Pakistan or India can give.

It is Pakistan which wants a change in the ground situation. So they have to come up with the proposals.This discussion of who will give what should take place behnd the scenes after a few years of peace and in an atmosphere of trust. Right now positions on both sides are too hard. A few years of peace and genuine action by both sides to eliminate terror arising from other country will soften the positions on both sides.

Since war, jihadis and international diplomacy have all failed completely for 60+ years in changing situation, why not give peace, destruction of terror groups and economic development for a few years followed by serious back room negotiations a chance?