Nobel committee warned not to award peace prize to Chinese dissident

[huzihaidao12]

It is true.
I am suffering of that from all my heart. Like most Iranians i wish better times to come and these crazy acts stop.
We need the Chinese and the World to remind our country to respect its citizens.
Supporting us is remind us the basic human rights and stop the barbary as you said yourself.

I accept the critics. If you could accept yourself about some point in your country. Like putting in jail a dissident : we do. You do. It is not good. ok with that?

Really the case, I have a feeling. You and we have something similar, 20 years ago, we all the simple vision of freedom, democracy, separation of powers, with a mere thought and passion, so we were 20 years ago, but not these "Chinese intellectuals", I do not want to say anything, however, that is Iran's problems, just want to say what you want, you must need be clear. With a wolf to drive away the other wolf, is not a good idea because the wolf may be more fierce.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Concerned about the country's problems and support them, "Chinese intellectuals" is not the same, understanding of China's problems, do you think we do not?

 

[challenger]

It is true.
I am suffering of that from all my heart. Like most Iranians i wish better times to come and these crazy acts stop.
We need the Chinese and the World to remind our country to respect its citizens.
Supporting us is remind us the basic human rights and stop the barbary as you said yourself.

I accept the critics. If you could accept yourself about some point in your country. Like putting in jail a dissident : we do. You do. It is not good. ok with that?

I myself is a dissident, according to your definition of dissidence, as I am anti communist.

I won't be jailed. I guarantee that.

Lets visit Beijing together, agree?

 

[challenger]

another insult without quoting me to say what was wrong.
this is typically propaganda educated people who write like you.

let me answer about your out of topic points .

about what he said. if there is another source than the given one, which i can give more credit.

i disagree with stoning like large majority of Iranians. Well let me explain me . hopefully you can understand. in Iran a small part of the population believes that whatever "Islam" says (local mullah for exemple) it should be respected. only these people can accept such a thing. whatever during many years no stoning case and now there are sadly some.

you didn't need to insult my country now to answer me.
i respect your great civilization and you should respect ours.
what is the matter here is that we speak about nobel prize man. and the wish for the nobel prize commity that china can improve human rights. nobody said human rights are perfect in europe or usa.

for exemple the associations for human rights and even the european commity for human rights .. is severely condemning France for many matters . First of all, many times they condemn state of jails. It is a disaster here.
Second about some subjects like roms.

Democracy is not US origin.
How many times i need to explain this to people like you?
I am not fan of USA. So stop always saying this bullshit. I never lived there and i am not looking to live there.
Democracy is a human principle.
Here they believe everything comes from their civilisation. Maybe i exagerate abou this ... many people are open minded...
What i mean is for exemple in Iran we had the human rights principles far before the european and greek.
But they don't care about that.
In China as well you are the source of many good involvments on human society.

WHAT is the matter here is HUMAN. Not being US or Europe civilized like. I am myself not at all european like. We have in our country our civilizations, all, we have the elements to make a better country.

THIS IS THE POINT.
could you understand this before always saying that when we speak democracy then we are US minded.

Who is ruling my country? I don't understand what you mean?
Khamenei is ruling my country. And?

People's Republic of China is still the only country where one can expect social and legal justice.

I am saying this.

China is still the only remaining free society. China is the only country that is ruled by law.

How much you know about China? Have you ever visited China? Instead of listening to what the Angloids say about China, why don't you come to China for visit and see yourself the country?

Talking about human rights...? Let me tell you, China is the only country that cares about Human rights with utmost sincerity. Social problems are everywhere, in every corner of the world. Yes, there is corruption in China, it is due to some corrupt officials, some people may have been deprived of their legal rights, but you can't blame the over all system which follows a Constitution.

Here, please read the Constitution of the PRC.

CONSTITUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

Now, let me tell you, the party itself cannot violate the Constitution.

The PRC govt in fact praise and award those who champion the cause of human rights. Many human rights lawyers have been awarded in China by the Central Govt.

See this documentary on CCTV 9.

Rediscovering China 2010-05-27 Justice for all CCTV News - CNTV English

Liu Xiaobo is not a human rights activist. He is a colonial agent and threat to China's national security and territorial integrity. He wants China to be re-colonized for three hundred years.

What if someone awards an Iranian who says Iran should be colonized by the Angloids for three hundred years?

Communism has nothing to do with Liu. Democracy has nothing to do with him. Human rights issues have nothing to do with him.

 

[Hussein]

People's Republic of China is still the only country where one can expect social and legal justice.

I am saying this.

China is still the only remaining free society. China is the only country that is ruled by law.

How much you know about China? Have you ever visited China? Instead of listening to what the Angloids say about China, why don't you come to China for visit and see yourself the country?

Talking about human rights...? Let me tell you, China is the only country that cares about Human rights with utmost sincerity. Social problems are everywhere, in every corner of the world. Yes, there is corruption in China, it is due to some corrupt officials, some people may have been deprived of their legal rights, but you can't blame the over all system which follows a Constitution.

Here, please read the Constitution of the PRC.

CONSTITUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

Now, let me tell you, the party itself cannot violate the Constitution.

The PRC govt in fact praise and award those who champion the cause of human rights. Many human rights lawyers have been awarded in China by the Central Govt.

See this documentary on CCTV 9.

Rediscovering China 2010-05-27 Justice for all CCTV News - CNTV English

Liu Xiaobo is not a human rights activist. He is a colonial agent and threat to China's national security and territorial integrity. He wants China to be re-colonized for three hundred years.

What if someone awards an Iranian who says Iran should be colonized by the Angloids for three hundred years?

Communism has nothing to do with Liu. Democracy has nothing to do with him. Human rights issues have nothing to do with him.

Thank you for your smart comments.
I just give my advice about part of what you said. It is just advice.
If i had a Liu Xiaobo guy as activist in my country. I would not put him in jail for what he said especially after he said he was sorry and it was taken it too seriously and out of context. Because he spoke about Hong Kong developped far better than other parts of China.
His comment was stupid he said himself.
If in Iran someone is doing terrorism act or planning it that we 100% sure is doing so, there is no pity: he should be in jail and we don't care what is said in Europe or USA. Did anybody care Rigi (Jundollah) executed?
Of course if someone says Iran should be colonized (it was not colonized, it was occupied and by many countries: russians and english for exemple) by english... you won't find anyone in Iran who will think he is smart and ALL intellectuals would say he is stupid.
People are smart. They know when someone says something stupid. If someone says such statement it is better for him he go to England because he would get no chance to get any credit, any respect. Except i he clearly says publically : "i am sorry for such stupid words"

 

[huzihaidao12]

Thank you for your smart comments.
I just give my advice about part of what you said. It is just advice.
If i had a Liu Xiaobo guy as activist in my country. I would not put him in jail for what he said especially after he said he was sorry and it was taken it too seriously and out of context. Because he spoke about Hong Kong developped far better than other parts of China.
His comment was stupid he said himself.
If in Iran someone is doing terrorism act or planning it that we 100% sure is doing so, there is no pity: he should be in jail and we don't care what is said in Europe or USA. Did anybody care Rigi (Jundollah) executed?
Of course if someone says Iran should be colonized (it was not colonized, it was occupied and by many countries: russians and english for exemple) by english... you won't find anyone in Iran who will think he is smart and ALL intellectuals would say he is stupid.
People are smart. They know when someone says something stupid. If someone says such statement it is better for him he go to England because he would get no chance to get any credit, any respect. Except i he clearly says publically : "i am sorry for such stupid words"

But you still do not know enough about, so you think that some of the stupid things by accident, not just some words, it is his consistent position, his claim is against all the Chinese culture, Chinese culture is all useless , China should all learn from the West, all concerned, everything is bad in China, the West everything is good, it is his basic theory, I suggest you go to learn more of his claims.

 

[huzihaidao12]

guys, I got a copy of Mr. Liu's interview, in Chinese, in 1988. Can someone translate it?

He was correct in his description of some limited areas, but after all he is more a petulant youth than anything else.

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作者按：自从刘晓波在本报亮相以来，我期待着和他见面。11月27日，他结束在挪威的讲学，应夏威夷大学之邀，途经香港，逗留几日，接受了解放月报的专访，下面是根据录音整理的访问记录。

　　今年6月，北师大举行刘晓波博士论文“审美与人的自由”的答辩会，九位全国一流的教授专家一致同意授予刘晓波文学博士学位。但是，这篇访问中的刘晓波，没有表示一点学者的拘谨和斯文，而是更像一名顽强地表现自己观念的“愤怒青年”或“思考青年”。他的激烈和尖锐来自于世界观的成熟，他的勇敢无畏则显示了和中国思想界主流派的深刻代沟，这很容易令人想起台湾六十年代的李敖。

　　如果推刘晓波为当代中国反叛的青年一代的理论代表，他是当之无愧的。因此，这篇访问记录值得推广给所有关注中国发展和青年一代状况的人士一读。

　　问：您在大陆被视为一匹“黑马”，言论“偏激”，他们怎么会放你出来的呢?

　　刘晓波：我出国没感到多大阻力，手续办得非常顺利。邀请递上去，先由系里批准，再由学校批，我只去过国家教委两次，一次送材料，一次拿护照与签证。这在中国人中是非常顺利的，人家出国不知道要跑多少趟，简直要扒掉一层皮。我一次也没去过挪威大使馆

　　对教育制度的批判

　　问：你今年6月在北师大获得博士学位，是否意味着一种官言承认?

　　刘晓波：我永远不承认学问好坏由博士硕士决定，我只看具体的人，如果你行，可以不用任何学位。我认为，不论在国内外，真正像样的只是极少数，所以我说大学毕业生有95%的废物，硕士毕业生有97%。博士毕业生有98%、99%的废物。不能用学位去评价一个人，同人接触，我完全凭感觉决定喜恶、好坏。

　　问：西方社会的支柱之一是教育制度，学位往往决定一个人的社会地位，你看中国的学位制在国际上地位如何?

　　刘晓波：中国的学位，我不想多谈，我想谈谈中国的教育制度，这个制度有一点是世界各国无法企及的，即它通过教育如何把人变成一个奴隶。

　　问：你是说过去还是现在?

　　刘晓波：过去现在都一样。

　　问：一点变化都没有吗?

　　刘晓波：没有。中国通过教育把人变成奴隶的技巧和一套程序，已经达到世界上最成熟和登峰造极的地步。我在中国从小学到大学，都是在“夹板”中长大的，就如围住长的一棵树，长出杈就砍掉。

　　问：你在文革时开始念书了吧?

　　刘晓波：我非常感谢文化大革命。那时我是一个孩子，我可以想干什么便干什么。父母都去干革命。学校都停课了，我可以暂时摆脱教育程序，去干我想干的事，去玩，去打仗，我过得很愉快。

　　问：你这次去北欧，是干什么?愉快吗?

　　刘晓波：是奥斯陆大学一个基金会邀请的，他们有一笔研究中国的经费，准备请五个人：第一个是我，第二个是北岛，然后是陈凯歌、万之、米丘。去讲了五次课，留下一个讲课提纲，3万多字，主要讲中国文学。

　　对西方汉学的批判

　　问：这三个月，你对北欧的中国研究有什么印象?

　　刘晓波：我仍然说，他们的汉学家中98%是废物，学素质极差，很多人在向中国政府谄媚，他们与中国的关系有很大的功利成分，他们不是学者。我比较喜欢的是如澳大利亚的李克曼，美国的费正清，他们真正是搞了中国问题，他们对中国采取一种冷眼旁观的超脱态度，但现在不少汉学家，如德国的、瑞典的、北欧的，他们既不了解自己的文化，也不了解中国，中国的东西看得很少，只是喜欢某个作家，研究他的东西而已，至少我知道奥斯陆大学东亚系教授的水平是误人子弟的，包括语言能力。我对他们说，你们研究中国当代文学，有如中国人研究越南文学、朝鲜文学的水平。那位邀请我去的汉学家说，我是第一个被他们邀请又对他们不客气的中国人。

　　问：除了文学问题外，你在国外还谈政治社会问题吗?

　　刘晓波：很少。我在国外很深的一点体会是，想做一个真实的人，上天给了你不同于别人的天赋，你能把它贯彻到底。这就是一个彻底的人。做这种人不仅在中国，就是在西方一样需要勇气和智慧，人类的不少弱点是共同的，只不过中国人把它发展到他妈的没法再“操蛋”(北方粗&#35805的地步。

　　问：你这次去夏威夷，准备讲什么?

　　刘晓波：不准备再讲文学，想讲讲哲学，大约三个月，然后可能去美国加州。

　　问：你这样云游四海，还打不打算回去?

　　刘晓波：我现在不想回去，但我不敢保证我将来会有什么变化。

　　问：有的中国作家说，离开了自己的国家和人民，就很难作出成就来，你同意吗?

　　刘晓波：他们是给自己留退路，是弱者的表现，生活就在你脚下，每分钟都有生活，你只要能面对内心世界，能保持感觉，就能写出东西，不论你生活在哪里。

　　问：你自己会不会面临抉择呢?

　　刘晓波：我有自身无法摆脱的局限：语言问题。我没法用英语那样好的表达自己的内心世界，我将来有可能用英语表达的意思，但语言的味道会一点儿也没啦。所以，语言如果可以过关，中国会和我根本没有关系。我最大的悲哀就是因为语言的局限性，还不得不为中国说话，我是在与一个非常愚昧、非常庸俗的东西对话，这种对话只会使自己的水平越来越低。

　　问：中国文学提出“走向世界”的口号，但我发现他们对外部世界又有某种程度的抗拒感(年轻的作家好一&#20123，不像苏联和东欧的作家，如索忍尼辛昆德拉，不恐惧国外生活，而且写出了好作品。

　　刘晓波：这种抗拒感来源于他们太软弱，中国文学“走向世界”是他们虚构的前提，就像能不能获诺贝尔奖的问题一样，其前提是中国作家已达到获诺贝尔奖的水平，为什么获不到?如果诺贝尔奖是世界一流水平，这前提就是虚构的。当然，诺贝尔奖的作品不一定是最好的。

　　对电视片“河殇”的批判

　　问：最近我看了电视片“河殇”的脚本，金观涛他们表达了一个强烈的意念：透过所谓黄色文明与蓝色文明的对比，中国一定要走向海洋，你对此是否同意?

　　刘晓波：我认为东西方文明并示构成冲突和对抗，那也是中国人虚构出来的，中国文明就落伍了，并不存在与西方文明对抗的问题，需要的是从头学起，承认落伍和失败，老老实实向别人学习，只有强度相等而方向不同的两个东西才会形成对抗，如西方的经验主义与理性主义哲学，生命哲学与科学哲学等等。中国有什么东可以与西方文明对抗?这种对抗概念证明了中国民族根深蒂固的虚荣心。

　　问：“河殇”在海内外引起轩然大波，褒贬不一，你同“河殇”的作者是同一代人，很想听听你对它的评价。

　　刘晓波：“河殇”做到了中国人现在电视上可能做到的程度，尽管我觉得还远远不够，放在中国而言，我肯定“河殇”，假如放在更高层次上看，这个片子也有没什么东西。我特别不喜欢“河殇”的解说词和它的语调，那是一种毛泽东式的语言，救世主式的语言。毛泽东这一点很厉害，他的语言影响了当代中国所有的理论和小说。

　　问：很多人推崇“河殇”在文化层面上所作的探索和反省，你对传统文化也很批判，为什么又对它很有保留?

　　刘晓波：“河殇”在解说词和画画的背后，蕴含了中国人几千年的虚荣心，它不是彻底承认中国落伍。它提出中国的西化，可今后中国要中化世界。中国人的观念是：西方强大时，中国人当奴隶，中国强大时，它要西方人当奴隶。这是“河殇”中潜在的意识，如洋务派所说：师夷之长以制夷”，为什么一定要制别人?中国骂别人帝国主义，其实自己最帝国主义。中国人在物质上可以承认自己落后，机器不如人家，衣服不如人家，但精神上不承认落后，道德世界第一!如梁漱溟、李泽厚、林语堂这些学者都持这种论调，李泽厚就要求以东方天人合一补充西方的天人对立，以东方的群体性、人际关系补充西方人的空虚感……但这两种东西是根本不能互补的!是决然不同的两种文化体系，不能调和的。

　　对中国人格的批判

　　问：你说“河殇”后面的虚荣心，我也有同感……

　　刘晓波：比如一开始的舞龙场面，拍得激昂，很有力量，如果我拍的话，我会拍出中国人如何的萎缩，软弱和“操蛋”，而不加一句解说。但“河殇”潜在的意思还是在说中国是一个伟大的民族，中国人99%的萎靡状态和那些画面表现的精神状态差得太远了。我在“新时期文学的危机”一文中，曾指出中国人从肉体到精神统统阳痿!

　　问：真是一番李敖味道!“河殇”实际上把中国近几百年积弱落后解释成一种历史的误会，似乎中国本应是世界第一，根本就不应该落后，你如何看待中国知识分子的历史作用?

　　刘晓波：我不相信古书上记载的知识分子人格如何高尚，如韩愈是一个很正统的卫道士，一个大儒，但此人生活无所不好，财、权、色俱全。中国知识分子的双重性很强，学术也具有功利价值，成了学者之后，能得到许多实际的功利，所以，中国知识分子立足社会有两条路一是入世当官，成为官僚集团中的一员，得到实际利益；一是先成名后得利，诸葛亮三顾茅庐留美名，就很会同统治者玩游戏，隐是为了显，退是为了进，出世是为了入世。

　　问：“河殇”对中国社会长期停滞提出了一种解释，也就是现在很时髦的金观涛理论：超稳定结构，另外，也有人对中国人的民族性格提出批评，你以为如何?

　　刘晓波：我承认我对中国文化的研究，最后走投无路，如果你把问题归结为政治腐败，再及文化腐败，就会问：为什么孔子的思想能统治中国这么多年，至今阴魂不散?我没法回答。我说过可能与人种有关。我绝不认为中国的落伍是几个昏君造成的，而是每个人造成的，因为制度是人创造的，中国的所有悲剧，都是中国人自编自导自演和自我欣赏的，不要埋怨别人，反传统与革新要从每个人开始，中国打倒“四人帮”之后，人人都成了受难者，或是反“四人帮”的英雄，他妈的，文革时你干什么去了?那些知识分子写大字报比谁都写得好，没有土壤，毛泽东一个人不会有那么大的力量。

　　问：你常提到“人格”，你认为中国人在人格、人性素质方面，甚至在人种方面，同西方民族有什么差异?

　　刘晓波：我只能说一点，中国人缺乏创造力。以哲学而言，西方有最好的经验主义哲学家、思辩哲学家、宗教哲学家、非理性哲学家和逻辑学者，他们能把人身上所具有的每一创造力，都发展到一个极致和非常漂亮的地步。要非理性，就有尼采式的那样全非理性的学说；要逻辑，有亚里士多德的逻辑，有罗素的数理逻辑，有笛卡儿、莱布尼兹的逻辑，精细严密到你毫无办法!中国人有什么?中国只有一堆非驴非马的大杂烩。

　　问：为什么会这样呢?中国人智能不低啊。

　　刘晓波：那我回答不了。从制度、文化推到人种上去找?我无力去天空几十万年前的历史。中国人一直傲称古代四大发明，西方古代以来几百大发明都有了，有什么值得骄傲的?四大发明对中国今天惟一的意义，就是遮羞布!

　　对孔孟之道的批判

　　问：你曾宣称要彻底埋葬孔孟之道，在它的废墟上能建立现代中国文化，如果一个民族完全否定了她的传统文化、失去了基础，如何建设一个新文化?

　　刘晓波：传统文化只是提供了一个否定的基础和起点，不是继承和承袭的基础。我认为孔子是个庸才，孟子比他有智慧，他承认的天才是庄子，从哲学上说，孔子什么都不是，孔子的学说是一种入世的为政治服务的学说，汉代把它变为统治工具，它的生命到汉代就该死亡了，奇怪的是这么多年还没有死亡!不过，它面对新世界已经死亡了。西方有人喜欢孔子，不奇怪，因为是多元社会，但是在一元化的社会中，最好的东西也没用。所以孔子在东西方的意义不一样，如果中国是个多元化的政体，我不反对别人信仰马克思、信仰基督教、信仰孔子，但当前的中国，你信仰马克思就等于信仰一种思想独裁，因为马克思主义在中国是统治阶级的工具，是棍子，不具有理论意义。

　　问：有人认为亚洲四小龙经济上的成功是儒学的胜利，证明儒学还有现代价值。

　　刘晓波：这是胡说八道!也是忘恩负义。台湾、南韩、新加坡都有美国支持，日本也是，如果没有美国的人权观念的约束，这些国家可能什么都没有!这是东方人的丑恶，东方人面临着人的解放的问题，中国是一架政治机器，日本是一架经济机器，每个人都是机器上的一个螺丝钉。台湾、日本的人权问题表示解决，香港解决了西方近代的个人主义是功利化的，它争取的是政治与经济的权利，但现代存在主义哲学追求的则是生命意义上的个性解入，这是一种“纯哲学”。

　　问：哲学问题我们只能点到辄止了。不如你说说，你如此反传统，是否同意全盘西化?

　　刘晓波：现代化是至明真理：私有制、民主政治、言论自由、法律至上。这是无可争议的，中国不存在理论问题，只有政策问题，全盘西化就是人化、现代化，选择西化就是要过人的生活，西化与中国制度的区别就是人与非人的区别，换言之，要过人的生活就要选择全盘西化，没有和稀泥及调和的余地。我把西化叫做国际化、世界化，因为只有西化，人性才能充分发挥，这不是一个民族的选择，而是人类的选择，所以，我很讨厌“民族性”这个词。中国就讲不清什么是“中国特色”。

　　问：据了解，大陆思想界对你阁下的这些高见，颇有一些如“走极端”、“绝对化”的批评，你有何辩解?是否有意赋予它的特殊意义?刘晓波：不是，我的声音只属于我自己，那只是中国的一种声音，别人搞条理很清晰、论证很严密的学问，我不反对，但我的方式就是这样，无以名之，但并不妨碍我欣赏西方的科学哲学。它严密的论证环环相扣，但我不会那样写，我的极端应有存在的理由，我并不要求别人和我一样。我不喜欢钱钟书那样写一条后引好几十条考证式的文章，那是他的一绝，我承认他的价值，虽然我可能认为他很荒谬。

　　问：你的思路和表达方式有鲜明的个人色彩，是怎样形成的?通过思辩、经验还是人生的独特背景?

　　刘晓波：我向来不喜谈“我的治学之道”，没什么道，只不过我与别人不同，其他没什么好谈的。有的人动辄谈成材之路……他妈的，你有什么资格给青年人做楷模，当青年导师!我很欣赏无法之法，每个人只有自己的方法，无统一的方法，做学问做人皆如此。任何一个人的成功，都是别人的坟墓，不要走别人的路。

　　对四大思想领袖的批判

　　问：请你介绍一下，海外所说金观涛、李泽厚、方励之、温元凯是中国四大思想领袖，符不符合实际?

　　刘晓波：某种情况下是符合的。不过，方励之要除外，只有李泽厚、刘宾雁、金观涛，他们和青年的关系是伯乐和千里马。他们的“伯乐欲”特别强，他们要不断发现人，给青年人写作，而年轻知识分子又要依靠大树来生活，进入名人圈子。中国不是千里马多，而是伯乐多，故尔千里马多。中国名人征服人的办法不是打不是骂，是抚摸你、关怀你，用类似女性般的温柔去同化你。

　　问：他们四大领袖的思想在中国究竟有多大影响力?

　　刘晓波：非常大。金观涛、李泽厚很有市场，尤其在大学生中，青年导师嘛。我演讲时，别人请教，我就说不向任何人教任何东西……我为什么要演讲，一是自我感觉好，二为了挣钱，不给够一小时多小钱，我就不去。钱是一种自我评价，有了一定数量的钱，你的生命也就随着开放到一定的广度。(众&#31505我太清楚了!有次去北京友谊商店，见到一瓶160元外汇券的酒，当时我站在那瓶酒前面，感到自己是个弱者，完全被粉碎了!他妈的，你刘晓波出名、演讲，有什么用，这瓶酒都不能征服它!

　　问：四大思想领袖对青年的引导，你认为是否全是正面的?有无负面的成分?

　　刘晓波：我先要排除方励之，我认为他不是青年导师，他要自封的话，我也不喜欢。(问：为什么?)他有什么资格!!(问：他事实上已经是导师!)这叫做中国人制造偶像的先天遗传，有些人不愿当偶像，是别人把他推上去的，就像一个为掌声而跑的运动员。方励之人过的最大的关，不是和当权者的关系，而是和崇拜者之间的关系，是面对鲜花和掌声应该怎么办?我认为，他们每个人对青年的引导基本上是负面的。

　　问：这样说来，中国思想界对青年一代的影响是一片空白了?

　　刘晓波：中国现在的“文化热”是虚幻的，中国人的素质这样低，一个农业文明生存方式的国家，在十年内走完了西方两千年的精神进程，从古希腊到后现代派，似乎都接受了，但什么也没有接受，什么都玩了，什么都不地道、不深入，新名词只能满足人们的虚荣心。

　　问：你可否说一点你对李泽厚的“挑战”?

　　刘晓波：李泽厚与刘再复有一个对话，谈对青年人的态度，说他们过去“整体地支持青年人”。过去我说过再不同庸才作战了，现在我要和庸才作战(我承认我也是庸&#25165。我和他们论战时是指着鼻子骂的，但他们明明骂的是我，却不指出来，说现在年轻人分化了，对有的年青人要重新看。他们的心态是：当你承认他是伯乐时，他就整体地支持你：你想叛逆他时，他就不支持你。刘再复在文章最后说：“青年人，我希望你们知道，我们是爱你们的!”他妈的，你那个爱值几个钱?谁要你的爱!你高高在上，赐给我一个爱，谁稀罕你!你的自我评价太不准确了!他以为爱一个人，别人要感激他，跪下叩头——没那码事!他们三位青年导师(不算方励&#20043的态度本身就很“操蛋”，是中国知识分子的救世主人格。

　　对当代中国文学的批判

　　问：你86年发表了关于文学危机的惊人之论后，现在你看中国文学有了多少变化?

　　刘晓波：对大陆文学我想说的只是：没有好的东西。不是不让写，而是写不出来。我较喜欢的作家是残雪，他有远到世界水平的潜力，他的感觉很奇特，那种阴冷的、恐怖的、折磨人的感觉，他的“苍孝的浮云”我很喜欢。我早就想写关于他的评论，迟迟未动笔，是想看看他还能不能写出好东西来。我评价一个作品有两个参照系，一是国内的，一是世界的，往往国内一流的作品拿出去也不能跟别人比。

　　问：中国作家的创作向西方借鉴的情况令人满意吗?

　　刘晓波：西方文学影响该唤起中国作家内心的生命力才有效，如鲁迅受到很多外国影响，但他的“阿Q正传”绝对是中国式的，现在有些作家抄西方的意境和结构，比如高行健的“车站”把“等待戈多”的结构全部照搬过来，竟被认为是“创新”，这种庸俗是高级庸俗，比模仿句子更可怕。寻根文学也抄“百年孤寂”的神神怪怪，陈凯歌他们也有这种情形。

　　问：你自己的文章与理论呢?

　　刘晓波：我承认也有拾人牙慧的地方，但我承认要切切实实的学习，因为我是在文化沙漠中成长起来的。我要感谢马克思的是，我在文革中能看到的书只有马克思选集，马克思给我提供了不少西方哲学史的线索，是当时“走向世界”的惟一桥梁。我看过马克思全集四十多卷，可以大段大段背下来。马克思前期的作品不错。

　　对马克思主义的批判

　　问：马克思主义近几年受到了冲击，它是否在中国已走向衰落?或失去了生存的价值?

　　刘晓波：马克思给我惟一的震撼，是它不妥协的批判态度。他的历史主义方法也有一定道理，其他不少则是胡说八道，如他对西方社会结构的分析：剥削者与被剥削者、资产阶级与工人阶级，就太简单，没有看到各阶层互相制约的关系。严格地说，阶级的概念在西方已不适用了。马克思的两分法只适用于专制社会。马克思的共产主义也只不过是西方传统的一环，从柏拉图的理想国，到圣经中的天堂。到摩尔的乌托邦，到康特拉的太阳城，到法国空想社会主义。马克思主义理想的混蛋的地方是，它说这理明天就会实现：资本主义准备好一切物质条件，只要一革命就能实现共产主义。马克思的理想太廉价了。

　　问：你认为现在的中国社会处在历史的什么发展阶段?

　　刘晓波：还没有走出农业文明。

　　问：是不是要补资本主义的课?

　　刘晓波：必须补课。

　　问：那么，今天中国的路线还是顺着农业社会的惯性在走?

　　刘晓波：是的。不过，它在调整它的专制，因为它面临危机。

　　问：中国可能在根本上加以改造吗?

　　刘晓波：不可能，即使一两个统治者下决心，也没办法，因为没有土壤。

　　问：那什么条件下，中国才有可能实现一个真正的历史变革呢?

　　刘晓波：三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。

　　问：十足的：“卖国主义”啦。

　　刘晓波：我要引用马克思“***宣言”的一句话：“工人没有祖国，决不能剥夺他们所没有的东西。”我无所谓爱国、叛国，你要说我叛国，我就叛国!就承认自己是挖祖坟的不孝子孙，且以此为荣。

　　问：你是说，中国还要走香港的路?

　　刘晓波：但历史不会再给中国人这样的机会了，殖民地时代已经过去了，没人会愿意再背中国这个包袱。

　　问：那怎么办呢?岂不太令人悲观?

　　刘晓波：没办法。我对整个人类都是悲观的，但我的悲观主义并不逃避，即使摆在我面前的是一个又一个悲剧，我也要挣扎，也要对抗，我不喜欢叔本华而喜欢尼采，原因便在于此。

(香港《解放月报》1988年12月号全文）

If you know Chinese, you will know what he is, no personality and confidence.

 

[huzihaidao12]

如果我拍的话，我会拍出中国人如何的萎缩，软弱和 “操蛋”，而不加一句解说。但“河殇”潜在的意思还是在说中国是一个伟大的民族，中国人99%的萎靡状态和 那些画面表现的精神状态差得太远了。我在“新时期文学的危机”一文中，曾指出中国人从肉体到精 神统统阳痿!


If I shoot, I will shoot the Chinese people how to atrophy, weakness and "*******" instead of adding a commentary. But the "blue" or the meaning of the potential that China is a great nation, 99% of the Chinese state and sluggish performance of the mental state of those pictures was in passing. I am in the "crisis of Contemporary Literature," a paper had pointed out to the spirit of the Chinese people from all physical impotence!

 

[huzihaidao12]

I now feel that he is a dog, it is a kind of praise, not an insult, at least dogs are loyal.

 

[prototype]

The Nobel peace prize was always controversial in nature,it seems more like settling scores for the west

If u have a look at it over the yrs some of the personalities who had been awarded noble prize

Mikhail Gorbachev
For dismantling and dismembering Soviet Union,American born enemy,what else was his contribution to world peace

Barak Obama
For fighting 2 costly wars which resulted in immense lose of all NATO soldiers,Afghan and Iraqi life,what is his contribution to world peace

And finally this Liu
Waging a battle against communism in China,another American enemy,other than that what is his contribution to world peace,does fighting communism contribute to world peace

If that was truth every Member of parliament of India who defeat a CPM candidate in India should b awarded a Nobel prize since communism is defeated,one of the primary requirement for Nobel peace prize

 

[gpit]

Seems except insulting you didn't know how to use your brain

Using filtering doesnt mean that filtering is the same level of avoiding informations to come . for exemple facebook is forbidden in China and they asked filtering google because they don't want any political idea different than the 'strandard' to be welcomed.
In US for exemple or Europe, they allow even the websites that they insult directly the government even the people of the government.

be ok with that or believe it is better to avoid is a possible talk to have.
but the difference of censorship is big .

it is easy to say other know nothing
but it is another thing to give some credit to your insults.

about multi parti matter
lol you're really a joke. just get some education before speaking.
all minor (and about minor it is really minor) partis are under control of CPC
you were funny.. or not

Your statements reflect the deep defects in your mentality.

Why should China filter the internet the same as Westerners do?

Why should China have the same censorship as the Westerners do?

Why would you like to restrict China from thinking independently and acting independently?

Your lack of independent brain doesn’t mean you should force the others’ to think dependently!

In addition, without Westerners, China has been there happily for tens of thousands of years…

 

[gpit]

The Nobel peace prize was always controversial in nature,it seems more like settling scores for the west

If u have a look at it over the yrs some of the personalities who had been awarded noble prize

Mikhail Gorbachev
For dismantling and dismembering Soviet Union,American born enemy,what else was his contribution to world peace

Barak Obama
For fighting 2 costly wars which resulted in immense lose of all NATO soldiers,Afghan and Iraqi life,what is his contribution to world peace

And finally this Liu
Waging a battle against communism in China,another American enemy,other than that what is his contribution to world peace,does fighting communism contribute to world peace

If that was truth every Member of parliament of India who defeat a CPM candidate in India should b awarded a Nobel prize since communism is defeated,one of the primary requirement for Nobel peace prize

Frankly, I agree with some of Mr. Liu's point of view. I'm even somewhat against jailing him.

But this bestowment of prize won't help China's democratization, only reflects Westerners' sinister intention of sabotaging a unique system that is different from theirs, from their standards and their values.

As the unique system, nonconforming to Western norms, grows and ameliorates itself, the Westerners are puzzled, perplexed and, subsequently, scared: the they thought such an alien system should have collapsed and rotten just as Soviet long time ago.

 

[Hussein]

Your statements reflect the deep defects in your mentality.

Why should China filter the internet the same as Westerners do?

Why should China have the same censorship as the Westerners do?

Why would you like to restrict China from thinking independently and acting independently?

Your lack of independent brain doesn’t mean you should force the others’ to think dependently!

In addition, without Westerners, China has been there happily for tens of thousands of years…

Again insults. You don't know how to speak without insults?
LOL

I never asked China to filter the same than Westerners do. Just try to understand and use your brain a little bit.
And what means "Westerners" about this filtering? In France there is NO filtering. People choose themselves to filter for exemple. But people can complain against a particular website if it shows racism, hatred and so.
Different countries in Europe => different ways to act.
Not speaking about your country that i dont care what they do. it is their business and it is not a model to me since i don't know anything about USA.

What is the matter with independant? Did i say something else?
I repeat and repeat in my messages that there are two elements that we should not mix:
- human rights and social progress and so about the society going better and better
- immitation of the so called model.
As i said human rights already existed before Westerns and many major social progess in humanity is not from Westerns.
Why always put Westerns in your words? you have a problem?

"My lack of independant brain"
Show me evidence about that except insulting me.
That's so stupid and childish to say to someone you dont know on tyhe web "you are that or that". Can't you just see what you write is ridiculous?

And about saying good things about China but put me in the opposition of these words: this is a Nazi behavior.

I see that many US people in this forum just like so much to make a hell and make people against each other. It is like with Pakistan they would enjoy so much Pakistanis having problems with Iranians.
As Julius Cesar said : "divide to reign". Fascist method used by your country.
Deception for you: i have no problem with China . Bye.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Again insults. You don't know how to speak without insults?
LOL

I never asked China to filter the same than Westerners do. Just try to understand and use your brain a little bit.
And what means "Westerners" about this filtering? In France there is NO filtering. People choose themselves to filter for exemple. But people can complain against a particular website if it shows racism, hatred and so.
Different countries in Europe => different ways to act.
Not speaking about your country that i dont care what they do. it is their business and it is not a model to me since i don't know anything about USA.

What is the matter with independant? Did i say something else?
I repeat and repeat in my messages that there are two elements that we should not mix:
- human rights and social progress and so about the society going better and better
- immitation of the so called model.
As i said human rights already existed before Westerns and many major social progess in humanity is not from Westerns.
Why always put Westerns in your words? you have a problem?

"My lack of independant brain"
Show me evidence about that except insulting me.
That's so stupid and childish to say to someone you dont know on tyhe web "you are that or that". Can't you just see what you write is ridiculous?

And about saying good things about China but put me in the opposition of these words: this is a Nazi behavior.

I see that many US people in this forum just like so much to make a hell and make people against each other. It is like with Pakistan they would enjoy so much Pakistanis having problems with Iranians.
As Julius Cesar said : "divide to reign". Fascist method used by your country.
Deception for you: i have no problem with China . Bye.

His manner and attitude I do not agree, but I also have the same feelings, you do not have enough understanding of China so much, he might think that this is a mean to offend, I do not agree, I think you just lack of understanding, no harm, no matter How, if the two sides, is very much in a lack of consensus, easy fight, stay calm, everyone, with a reason.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Again insults. You don't know how to speak without insults?
LOL

I never asked China to filter the same than Westerners do. Just try to understand and use your brain a little bit.
And what means "Westerners" about this filtering? In France there is NO filtering. People choose themselves to filter for exemple. But people can complain against a particular website if it shows racism, hatred and so.
Different countries in Europe => different ways to act.
Not speaking about your country that i dont care what they do. it is their business and it is not a model to me since i don't know anything about USA.

What is the matter with independant? Did i say something else?
I repeat and repeat in my messages that there are two elements that we should not mix:
- human rights and social progress and so about the society going better and better
- immitation of the so called model.
As i said human rights already existed before Westerns and many major social progess in humanity is not from Westerns.
Why always put Westerns in your words? you have a problem?

"My lack of independant brain"
Show me evidence about that except insulting me.
That's so stupid and childish to say to someone you dont know on tyhe web "you are that or that". Can't you just see what you write is ridiculous?

And about saying good things about China but put me in the opposition of these words: this is a Nazi behavior.

I see that many US people in this forum just like so much to make a hell and make people against each other. It is like with Pakistan they would enjoy so much Pakistanis having problems with Iranians.
As Julius Cesar said : "divide to reign". Fascist method used by your country.
Deception for you: i have no problem with China . Bye.

Because human rights are abused by the West, we all know, but you may be too believe in the West some nice slogans, no problem, I understand, even if we are the same 20 years ago. Against some of the things hidden by the West, not against human rights, this is our present attitude.