No new fighter deal on horizon for the IAF

[Windjammer]

 

[SQ8]

Sadly, since this has been posted by a Pakistani - expect lots of Indian fanboys to refute the claim regarding the maintenance nightmare that is the MKI. Despite massive IAF efforts(which are commendable) the MKI continues to display sub-par availability and requires more man hours than the IAF can spare in an intense conflict.
That reality is known here, and then the reality of our systems is known there. Which is why at the end of the day, both forces are extremely cautious about their actual capability in a conflict.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Armchair @JamD @Thorough Pro
@Zarvan @Windjammer Please do make a note regarding the costs of the 5.754455 Generation Tejas as well. Next time they try to defend their failed project(not the fine airframe and platform which was ruined by Indian mismanagement)

 

[amardeep mishra]

Sadly, since this has been posted by a Pakistani - expect lots of Indian fanboys to refute the claim regarding the maintenance nightmare that is the MKI. Despite massive IAF efforts(which are commendable) the MKI continues to display sub-par availability and requires more man hours than the IAF can spare in an intense conflict.
That reality is known here, and then the reality of our systems is known there. Which is why at the end of the day, both forces are extremely cautious about their actual capability in a conflict.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Armchair @JamD @Thorough Pro
@Zarvan @Windjammer Please do make a note regarding the costs of the 5.754455 Generation Tejas as well. Next time they try to defend their failed project(not the fine airframe and platform which was ruined by Indian mismanagement)

Hi @Oscar
It is not intellectually honest to contemplate on selected pieces of information. In order to access the situation one must review the facts in it's entirety. SU-30(MKI) has achieved 60+% serviceability rates as was informed the Indian Parliament last year(read: http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...To_60_per_cent__Manohar_Parrikar#.W2llnBjhVpg). This figure is expected to go further up to 70% once a huge chunk of the supply-chain is indigenized. Also a fact to note is that recently French Parliament was informed that the serviceability rates of rafale is as low as 48.5%(read: https://defenceupdate.in/rafales-serviceability-rate-is-48-5-compared-with-su-30-mkis-60/).
My point is plain simple, with ever increasing pvt participation, the serviceability rate of Su-30 will increase. A serviceability rate of close to 70% is decent figure.

As for the Tejas though, it would be better if you do not pay any heed to what fanboys say. I am pretty sure, India(as opposed to Pakistan) is much more transparent with respect to her research and you can always find genuine literature pertaining to a lot of sub-systems etc. You can also go through various open source seminar videos/lectures to know about the real situation. Tejas is definitely late but by no stretch of imagination it is a failed project. There is no doubt that it suffered inordinate delays thanks to poor mismanagement, but the technology achieved is something that I am pretty sure you can not fathom at the moment for there is no analogue in Pakistan. Since I am actively working in the field of flight dynamics and control and have papers at AIAA, I know the kind of technology that was achieved in terms of flight controls and control laws. Particularly the MRAC-- Model Reference Adaptive Control as opposed to older gain scheduling algorithms. That too for both pitch and yaw planes.
As for the delays there are various reasons. One area where I think(in strictly my opinion) where Pakistan has done better with the kind of resources she has--is the fact that most of these programs are run by the military. In India unfortunately except navy, all these programs are run by civilian establishment and they do not stick to stringent timelines.
But then again, some labs particularly ADA and NAL have done some fantastic job-- we can discuss some of those if you're really interested.

 

[Windjammer]

Sadly, since this has been posted by a Pakistani - expect lots of Indian fanboys to refute the claim regarding the maintenance nightmare that is the MKI. Despite massive IAF efforts(which are commendable) the MKI continues to display sub-par availability and requires more man hours than the IAF can spare in an intense conflict.
That reality is known here, and then the reality of our systems is known there. Which is why at the end of the day, both forces are extremely cautious about their actual capability in a conflict.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Armchair @JamD @Thorough Pro
@Zarvan @Windjammer Please do make a note regarding the costs of the 5.754455 Generation Tejas as well. Next time they try to defend their failed project(not the fine airframe and platform which was ruined by Indian mismanagement)

The fanboys can refute all to their hearts content, no doubt the Pakistani factor will be rather disturbing for them but in the end it's the source that will spoil their day.
Albeit, it's a well established fact that the MKI has been marred by problems since it's induction with IAF during which the entire fleet has been grounded at least three times, lately the lack of spares has also curtailed it's availability. Astonishingly another latest fighter acquisition by India, the navy's MiG-29K is not fairing any better either, which at one point was tethering at an alarming 16% availability rate.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Tejas?

 

[kalakaar]

Tejas?

LOL

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

View attachment 490559

View attachment 490560

There is no rush to make a decision, since Gripen E will not be available to India during the next two years anyway.
If India wanted another plane, they could make a decision now.

 

[Thorough Pro]

@Oscar Thanks for Tagging

The article may be posted by a Pakistani but fortunately it is written by one of their own.

SU30's high cost of maintenance reminds me of my first bubble jet printer that I bought for Rs.2,800/- and the first replacement cartridge cost me Rs.2,500/-. I think the Russians played very smart by pricing the jets at very attractive prices knowing well that it's a 40 year guarantee for spares and arms sales.

I am not an expert in military or aviation fields but I think these Su30's will pose similar challenges to IAF as the MIG21's did in terms of reliability and availability as the times goes by and then a huge replacement problem when they start reaching the end of their life as they are their mainstay quite capable fighters and replacing them one for one in the next 15/20 years would become exorbitantly costly forcing IAF to settle for even less number of squadrons unless they can turn Tejas around and build that in numbers.

Regarding Tejas high cost of production, It think a big chunk of that is due to sheer project mismanagement, you can't make anything cost effective if you spend 35 years working on it, hiring expensive consultants from around the world (who have a natural conflict of interest in doing anything on time), keep going back to the drawing board for incorporating never-ending wishful capabilities, and then probably some corruption too.

Question regarding Rafales, if the first batch lands in Sep 2019, then how long do you think it would take them to be fully operational for active duty and become a challenge for PAF with pilot/ground staff training/facilities in place, techniques and doctrines developed/practised and documented?

Sadly, since this has been posted by a Pakistani - expect lots of Indian fanboys to refute the claim regarding the maintenance nightmare that is the MKI. Despite massive IAF efforts(which are commendable) the MKI continues to display sub-par availability and requires more man hours than the IAF can spare in an intense conflict.
That reality is known here, and then the reality of our systems is known there. Which is why at the end of the day, both forces are extremely cautious about their actual capability in a conflict.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Armchair @JamD @Thorough Pro
@Zarvan @Windjammer Please do make a note regarding the costs of the 5.754455 Generation Tejas as well. Next time they try to defend their failed project(not the fine airframe and platform which was ruined by Indian mismanagement)

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Looks like Pak and China are constraining the Indian finances for defense!! Not a bad strategy!!! Last time Rahmetli Liaket Ali Han used the financial tools successfully against Serdar Patel to make Pak's independence easier and earlier...

 

[hussain0216]

Tejas really screwed the indians

Repeated delays
Cost overruns

And now they realise they have to pay alot of money for something that is not really fit for purpose as a cheap replacement for legacy fighters or as a front line option

Tejas just hogs money and squadron space and they are stuck with it

 

[Pakistani Aircraft]

Has India been robbed by Russia?

Also how many thousands of hours of flight testing does the Tejas require before it can be considered some sort of a success?

 

[Thorough Pro]

Last time they "rushed" it took them 15 years ....

There is no rush to make a decision, since Gripen E will not be available to India during the next two years anyway.
If India wanted another plane, they could make a decision now.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

IMO India should have stuck with Su-57. It's their only 5th gen choice in the foreseeable future. Russia stuck by India for decades and boom comes Modi and broke relation with Russia overnight. That's bad hindsight.

 

[SQ8]

Question regarding Rafales, if the first batch lands in Sep 2019, then how long do you think it would take them to be fully operational for active duty and become a challenge for PAF with pilot/ground staff training/facilities in place, techniques and doctrines developed/practised and documented?

4 years from induction they would have a strike capable force. Earlier perhaps considering the Indians are adept at getting platforms integrated fast.

 

[Ultima Thule]

IMO India should have stuck with Su-57. It's their only 5th gen choice in the foreseeable future. Russia stuck by India for decades and boom comes Modi and broke relation with Russia overnight. That's bad hindsight.

Su-57 have minimal stealth shaping and material, russian is in difficult position to mass produce Su-57, India wanted more Stealth oriented jet as well as Indian want all of source code for Su-57's radar+avionics etc etc to upgrade Su-57 at home and russian always denying this that why india leaving this joint project and pursuing its indigenous project called AMCA @undertakerwwefan