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No kingdom for killers

EjazR

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Straws don’t float in the winds of international diplomacy because a sudden gust has risen on a lazy afternoon. They are sent up there to check the weather at various levels of a turbulent atmosphere. If a straw does encounter too much friction and gets burnt out, no great deal: It was only a straw. But if it floats and finds a destination then it becomes an asset in the construction of a bridge, sometimes between nations divided by a sea of differences, rather than merely a gulf of irritations.

In 1947, the Arab world watched the emergence of Pakistan and India with wary interest. Its more vibrant parts, like Egypt, were weighed by their own dilemmas; not least of them being imposed monarchs who gave orders to Cairo and took orders from London. India’s first prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru took an active dislike to Egypt’s King Farouk, which may explain his disproportionate fondness for Gamal Nasser, who overthrew the royals in what must surely be among the more polite coups in history. A defining moment came in 1956 when secular Nehru supported Nasser during the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Suez and Islamic Pakistan stood by Britain. As one Arab commentator tartly noted, “The Pakistanis think that Islam was born in 1947.”

But Saudi Arabia, deeply enmeshed in the Western embrace, had little time for left radicalism, whether genuine or pseudo. It was drawn to Pakistan by both religion and politics, not to mention geopolitics. Pakistan positioned itself as a frontline state against Soviet communism (though not China), long before the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan did indeed make it a borderline case. Saudi kings are also, as rulers of Mecca and Medina, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. They were attracted as well by Pakistan’s claim to be a fortress of the faith between “Hindu-dominated South Asia” and “Atheist-Communist Central Asia”.

Few nations have been as skilful as Pakistan in exploiting the uses of adversity. It turned the period between two wars, of Bangladesh in 1971 and Afghanistan in 1979, into a decade of resurrection. The strategic relationship between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan was cemented to seemingly unbreakable levels. Saudi support financed the Pakistani nuclear programme, advertised then as an “Islamic bomb”. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto’s Lahore Islamic conference in 1974 was a phenomenal success, and lives on both in the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation and in symbols scattered across Pakistani cities.

The Pak-Saudi relationship found its true historic moment during the 10-year Afghan war against the Soviet Union, funded by Saudis, armed by America, and conducted by President Zia-ul-Haq, who might have been put into power from a Riyadh casting couch. When the Soviets were driven out in 1989, there was still the future of Afghanistan to worry about. In 1994 Pakistan launched the Taliban; by 1996 the Taliban had taken Kabul. Pakistan had not only extended its strategic space to the rear, the perennial dream of its military establishment, it had also turned this into “Islamic space”. Pakistan, UAE and Saudi Arabia were the only three nations to recognise the Taliban government.

The Saudi ship of state turns at a glacial pace, but the straws began to float with greater frequency after 9/11 zeroed the war against terrorism into the AfPak region. Riyadh began to praise the rising economies of China and India. I recall a startling statement by a Saudi minister made in Islamabad: Indian Muslims, he argued, were not a minority, but equal citizens of their nation. This would have tweaked an ear or two in the land created of the two-nation theory. In 2006 King Abdullah raised the profile with his state visit to India.

And yet there was a long step to the point where Saudis would hand over Syed Zabiuddin Ansari, alias Abu Jundal, wanted by India for his crucial role in the planning and operations of the Mumbai terror carnage. Ansari had gone to Saudi Arabia for safety; he discovered that Saudi interrogators wanted to know what he knew. Only when Saudis were convinced that his Pakistani passport was fake, and that he was an Indian, did they send him back to face trial in his own country. They chose to cooperate with India at the expense of Pakistan. This is not an individual decision. This is policy; and therefore the start of a process.

It is facile to suggest that they did so under American pressure. Riyadh is not a cardboard government. King Abdullah is convinced that such demons are as injurious to the stability of Saudi Arabia as they are to India. He has also ripped apart one of the great falsehoods propagated by many Muslim terrorists: That they had the sanction of faith. They never did. They do not now. They never will.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan will remain the closest of friends, and the best of allies. But the Saudis have ensured that it will not live outside the parameters of law and world order.

The columnist is editor of The Sunday Guardian, published from Delhi, India on Sunday, published from London and Editorial Director, India Today and Headlines Today.

WaPo doing a similar story on the anti-terror co-operation by the Saudis
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Saudi Arabia's policy shift toward India helps nab terror suspects - The Washington Post
NEW DELHI — For years, India watched helplessly as many of its most-wanted terrorism suspects traveled freely to Saudi Arabia from Pakistan with new identities and passports and without fear of arrest.

But things appear to have changed. Last week, Saudi Arabia deported an Indian accused of involvement in the terrorist attacks in Mumbai in 2008 that killed 166 people, including six Americans. At the same time, news came that Riyadh is likely to deport another accused terrorist to India in the next few weeks.

The shift in Saudi policy toward India is part of the kingdom’s broader foreign policy makeover since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, analysts say.

“This deportation is really a first, and it signals Saudi Arabia’s changing attitude toward India as much as it also signals the internal changes in Saudi society,” said K.C. Singh, a former Indian diplomat. “It coincides with India aligning itself with American interests and India’s cautious distancing from Iran.”

Saudi Arabia also gives India a gateway to the entire Arab region, where it has little influence, compared with Pakistan. Saudi Arabia can assist India in its quest for energy in the region, improve its access to trading partners and help it address radicalism among Indian Muslims who migrate to the Middle East for lucrative work.

Saudi Arabia has not exactly been India’s friend all these years. In fact, it has resolutely supported Pakistan on many matters, especially the long-standing dispute between India and Pakistan over the Himalayan province of Kashmir.

But the handover last week of Sayed Zabiuddin Ansari is deeply embarrassing for Pakistan because the evidence in his case points to the involvement of the Pakistani state in the Mumbai attacks, Indian officials said. On Thursday, Islamabad denied the charge.

Investigators said it was Zabiuddin’s voice that was heard from a control room in Pakistan guiding the 10 gunmen in Mumbai as they went about shooting people at a cafe, two five-star hotels, a train station and a Jewish prayer center. The FBI helped intercept the calls, officials said.

Zabiuddin, also known as Abu Jundal, later traveled to Saudi Arabia with a Pakistani passport and began raising funds there and recruiting men for future attacks, investigators said. The United States tracked him to the kingdom and alerted New Delhi and Riyadh, officials said.

“It is no longer safe for Indian terrorists living in Pakistan to travel to Saudi Arabia with new names and Pakistani passports,” said a senior intelligence officer who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media. “Many of them go there routinely for the hajj pilgrimage and Islamic charity. Some also go to Saudi Arabia to enlist Indian laborers into their militant network.”

In May, police in Saudi Arabia detained another Indian, Fasih Mehmood, who is accused in India of being involved in a bomb blast outside a cricket stadium and an incident in which gunmen shot at foreign tourists outside a mosque in 2010.

India’s diplomatic ties with Riyadh began changing in 2006 after Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah visited New Delhi. In 2010, the two nations signed several pacts, including agreements on energy, counterterrorism, narcotics, money laundering and extradition. A year ago, Riyadh agreed to double its oil exports to India, helping New Delhi reduce its reliance on Iran.

But the recent warmth and the deportation do not mean that Riyadh has turned away from Pakistan entirely, officials said.

“It doesn’t have implications for interstate relations between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia,” said Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former Pakistani diplomat who heads the Center for International Strategic Studies in Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital. “It is not meant to cause embarrassment to Pakistan.”

Richard Leiby in Islamabad contributed to this report.
 
Well said!! No one could have laid this out better than him! :tup:

Now, I wonder what the DPC with its 43 extremist organizations have to say to this? Is Hafiz Sayed and Co listening?

@OrionHunter: No one seriously said they had the sanction of faith. The issue is not whether they have the sanction of religion or not, but whether the horrific discrimination against Indian Muslims on the basis of their religion is the cause of their violent reactions.....


Terror in India

SM Mushrif, the author of "Who Killed Karkare?" and former police chief of Maharashtra state, has raised some very serious questions about the role of the Indian intelligence in the increasing violence committed by Hindutva outfits against India's minorities, and how India's Intelligence Bureau diverts attention from it by falsely accusing Indian Muslims and Pakistan's ISI, as was done in Malegaon and Samjutha Express blasts.

While the human rights abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib by the Bush administration have been exposed, documented and condemned by the world, similar abuses of Muslims in India's "war on terror" have gone largely unnoticed. There appears to be a conspiracy of silence by the world media when it comes to the brutality against Indian Muslims practiced by officials and the right-wing Hindu extremists in world's largest secular democracy. The western media, in particular, have completely bought what Fareed Zakaria, the Indian-born Muslim editor of Newsweek International, describes as a "peaceful, stable, and prosperous" India. Even the officially-endorsed anti-Muslim violence and resulting deaths of thousands of Muslims in Gujarat have not been able to shake the faith of the Indophile western journalists. Let's see if former Maharashtra police chief Mushrif's book "Who Killed Karkare?" changes any minds:

Review by M Zeyaul Haque

A new book curiously titled "Who Killed Karkare?"(published by Pharos Media) says a nationwide network of Hindutva terror that has its tentacles spread up to Nepal and Israel is out to destroy the India most Indians have known for ages and to remould it into some kind of Afghanistan under the Taliban.

The writer, a former IG Police of Maharashtra, SM Mushrif, has reconstructed a fearsome picture out of former Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare’s chargesheet against alleged Hindutva terrorists like Lt. Col. Purohit, Sadhvi Pragyasingh Thakur and others.

The chargesheet pointed towards a mind-boggling nationwide conspiracy with international support to destabilize the constitutional order and the secular democratic Indian state that upholds it, to be replaced by a Hindutva state run according to a new Constitution. For that the conspirators were prepared for a massive bloodbath, using bomb attacks on religious places to trigger an anti-Muslim holocaust.

Mushrif, who has over three decades of diligent policing behind him and whose feats include exposing the Telgi scam, has made an elaborate case out of nearly a dozen blasts over a large area of the country conducted by Hindutva terror groups of different stripes. His case: a section of India’s intelligence services, a miniscule group in the armed forces and a section of different state police forces have been compromised and infiltrated by these elements, a development that bodes ill for the future of the country.

In Hemant Karkare’s net (of investigations, of course) many big and small fishes of VHP, RSS, Bajrang Dal and Sanatan Sanstha (which has been found to be involved in Diwali-eve blasts in Goa last week) had been trapped. Serving and retired army officers, academics, serving and retired officials of India’s premier intelligence service were ensnared in Karkare’s fishing net. The menacing power of the latter groups, inspired by sustained anti-Muslim hate campaigns of the last six decades, gave the plot a sinister and highly destructive character.

Among the plans unearthed by Karkare was a blueprint for the assassination of 70 prominent Indians who could by a hindrance to the project of Hindutva. Interestingly, most of the persons marked for elimination would, naturally, be Hindus because it is they who primarily run the dispensation. The conspirators were also unhappy with organizations whose Hindutva they suspected to be less virulent than desired.

Mushrif, who very well knows the power of the Intelligence Bureau (IB) to make or mar lives and careers, says he is prepared to face the consequences of hostility of this power hub. He musters “evidence” to show that the IB has regularly been interfering with regular police investigations to let Hindutva terrorists slip out of the net and replace them with random Muslim youth. To fudge the issues further obliging police officers in the states would not mind exterminating a few Muslim youth to be branded posthumously as “terrorists”.

There are quite a few number of such cases where such extra-judicial killing of Muslim youth has turned out to be false police encounters. All this is done to cover tracks of Hindutva terror. Mushrif says a “Brahminist” network that has its origins in Maharashtra, and is closely knit across political parties, government services, including IB, and other vital sectors of life is behind the terror that seeks to destroy the secular, democratic state. He hastens to clarify that very few Brahminists are Brahmins. Many are from other high Hindu castes, some from middle and lower castes.

Most Brahmins are fair-minded and would not like to associate themselves with hate ideologies. Hemant Karkare, too, was a Brahmin, Mushrif says. So is Mushrif’s son-in-law.

It is pertinent to note that “Brahminism” and “Brahminical order” first appeared in Dalit protest vocabulary in the Dalit uprising movement in Maharashtra towards the turn of the 20th century. Mushrif, who appropriates part of this vocabulary for the present discourse, says that Maharashtra still remains the centre of this ideology that, among other things, has the dubious distinction of killing the Father of the Nation.

The power establishment that really runs the affairs of this country (Mushrif says it is not Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi) does not want to expose the Hindutva terrorists. One example is the blasts in Samjhauta Express, which the IB said was carried out by Pakistan’s ISI. Mushrif quotes a report in The Times of India that said, “the Centre had blamed the ISI on the basis of the IB’s findings.” However, during a narco-analysis test under Karkare, Lt. Col. Purohit had admitted having supplied the RDX used in the blast. The IB, which draws its power from its proximity to the Prime Minister (its director briefs the PM every morning for half an hour), did not want Karkare’s investigation that blew the cover off the IB’s shenanigans, to continue.

Once Karkare was removed from the scene, the IB moved in to fill his position with KP Raghuvanshi, a pliant police officer with extremely low credibility among Muslims for his record of letting off known Hindutva terrorists and implicating innocent Muslim youth even in bomb attack cases on mosques.

There are quite a few interesting vignettes here, like Raghuvanshi and Col. Purohit’s association with Abhinav Bharat in Maharashtra, whose hand was evident in a series of blasts across the country. It has old connections with men like Veer Damodar Savarkar (whose relative Himani Savarkar leads the Abhinav Bharat movement), Dr Munje, who led the Hindu Mahasabha, and other Hindutva luminaries. It is at the Bhonsala Military Academy run by these groups that Purohit trained police officers, including Raghuvanshi. Mushrif asks a pertinent question: Will Raghuvanshi pursue the investigation against Purohit, his guru? A plausible answer is, perhaps no. Already charges have been dropped by a special court under MCOCA against 11 accused, including Purohit, on the grounds of insufficient evidence produced in the court by the prosecution.

This was just the beginning of the undoing of Karkare’s painstaking investigation. Mushrif says slowly the system is working to undo all of Karkare’s work and let off the terrorists who over the years destroyed scores of lives and wreaked irreparable economic damage. The ATS team under Karkare had pointed out VHP leader Praveen Togadia’s role in the blasts. The ATS under Raghuvanshi dropped the investigation against him saying (please hold your laughter) they do not know who Togadia is!

A number of investigations have been thus sabotaged by the powers that be and the tracks of the Hinduta terrorists duly covered. The 319-page book is crammed with such information.

But what about who killed Karkare? Mushrif says two teams were at work on 26/11 – one which did the maximum damage, and was from outside. The smaller team took advantage of the confusion of the moment and acted only on the relatively small CST-CAMA-Rangbhavan stretch that killed Karkare. It was a desi unit that wanted Karkare and his men out of the way.

Unfortunately, the Indian government has miserably failed, and continues to fail to investigate the allegations that are very very serious. The author, by raising these issues, adds his heavy weight by virtue of his inside knowledge and the position he held, to the extremely serious allegations.

Haq's Musings: Terror in India--Who Killed Karkare?

... He has also ripped apart one of the great falsehoods propagated by many Muslim terrorists: That they had the sanction of faith. They never did. They do not now. They never will......

@EjazR: The issues is again not whether anyone has the sanction of any faith for their actions. The issue is the background of horrific oppression that drives them to commit such violent acts....

--
Wikileaks on India Kashmir Torture, Radical Hindu Threat

Delhi-based US diplomats have reported concerns about the growing Hindtuva threat to India and torture of Kashmiri prisoners by Indian security forces, according to the Guardian newspaper which has been given access to over 250,000 US diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks.

These revelations come barely a week after the Pakistani media came under withering attack by the Guardian for publishing similar reports dubbed as "fake WikiLeaks" alleged to have come from Pakistani intelligence sources.

In a leaked cable posted by WikiLeaks, Rahul Gandhi, the "heir apparent" to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, told the US ambassador Tim Roemer at a lunch last year that Hindu extremist groups could pose a greater threat to India than Muslim militants.

According to the leaked cable of August 3, 2009, "Gandhi said there was evidence of some support for the group (LeT) among certain elements in India's indigenous Muslim community. However, Gandhi warned, the bigger threat may be the growth of radicalized Hindu groups, which create religious tensions and political confrontations with the Muslim community".

In another leaked document dated April 6, 2005, an American diplomat describes being briefed by the ICRC on the routine use of torture to interrogate Kashmiri detainees. Close to 1,500 prisoners were interviewed by the organization during 177 visits to various detention centers between 2002 and 2004, according to the cable. The ICRC said they were subjected to beatings, electrocution, and other abuses. “The ICRC is forced to conclude that [the government of India] condones torture,” the cable said.

In another Kashmir related cable dated June 4, 2007 the embassy recommended that the US should deny visa application of Kashmiri Ikhwani leader and the then MLA Usman Abdul Majid "in the interest of remaining balanced in" their approach to the Kashmir issue following their denial of pro-Pakistan Kashmiri separatist leader Sayeed Ali Shah Geelani's visa request.

"Kashmiri paramilitary leader and J&K state MLA Usman Abdul Majid applied for a U.S. visa on May 22nd in order to attend functions held by the United States Institute of Peace starting on June 7th in Washington, DC. Majid is a leader of the pro-GOI (Government of India) Ikhawan-ul-Musilmeen paramilitary group, which was formed by India's security forces to combat terrorism in the Kashmir Valley. The group is made up of terrorists who have surrendered to the Indian government and agreed to fight against their former brethren," the cable mentioned.

Ikhawan, the cable said, "has a reputation in the Valley for committing brutal human rights abuses -- including extra-judicial killings of suspected terrorists and their family members, as well as torturing, killing, raping, and extorting Kashmiri civilians suspected of harboring or facilitating terrorists."

"Majid won election easily in his Baramullah district of Kashmir, but this is likely only because the district has had a minute voter turnout as terrorist groups continue to enforce a boycott there of Indian-held elections. This boycott continued in Baramullah even in 2002, when turnout was much higher in other areas.

However, the cable pointed out, "Similar to many of the instances of torture and violence surrounding the Kashmir dispute, Post is unable to verify with evidence the claims against Majid."

"Majid's reputation in the Kashmir Valley is one of the worst among those associated with the GOI. In light of our rejection of the Geelani visa, we will not be able to maintain our record of neutrality in the Kashmir dispute if we grant this visa. Nonetheless, denying his application may have some repercussions with GOI officials, especially those from India's Intelligence Bureau who have been close to his case. As with the Geelani case, this will be a very delicate matter, but in light of Ikhawan's history, Post recommends that the U.S. government deny the visa."

These latest cables finally reveal a semblance of US diplomats' humanity in the midst of growing violence against the Muslim miniority that characterizes life in India, and Indian occupied Kashmir. It is encouraging to see the breaking of their defeaning silence on Indian security forces' human rights abuses and Hindutva violence.

Haq's Musings: Wikileaks on India Kashmir Torture, Radical Hindu Threat
 
Saudi Arabia - India relations are growing day by day very soon we will be partners :tup:
 
I have always said that instead of blaming Pakistan, India should take the responsibility for being attacked, as that was merely a natural consequence of the horrific treatment of Muslims in their Abu Ghraibs and Guantanamos.

Finally, we now have proof that it was indeed justice-seeking Indian Freedom-Fighters who planned and executed the Mumbai 2008 Justice Operations. Media from around the English-Speaking world are now confirming that India is the indeed the one to blame for the attacks--

Don't blame Pakistan, Abu Hamza is Indian, says Malik | Siasat
Mumbai attacks 'handler' Abu Hamza 'arrested' - Telegraph
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
Key suspect in Mumbai attacks arrested - World News | IOL News | IOL.co.za
India arrests key suspect in Mumbai attacks: minister... | Stuff.co.nz
Zabiuddin Ansari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our country's claims of innocence have finally been vindicated!

I am happy that at least people on this forum had courage to stand up to all the Indian propaganda and insist that:
(1) India itself was to blame for the deaths of Indian civilians, because of India's horrific treatment of its 180-million strong muslim-minority.
(2) Jews themselves were to blame for the attack on the Jewish Center, because of Israel's horrific treatment of muslims in Palestine & Lebanon.
(3) Americans themselves were to blame for the killing of Western tourists, because of America's horrific wars against Muslims in Iraq, Libya, Bosnia, Syria & Afghanistan.
(4) Koreans/Japanese themselves were to blame for the killing of their businessmen, because of their horrific habit of eating stir-fried pork, which is highly offensive to innocent muslims.
 
I have always said that instead of blaming Pakistan, India should take the responsibility for being attacked, as that was merely a natural consequence of the horrific treatment of Muslims in their Abu Ghraibs and Guantanamos.

Ah u are new item arent u? Nice logic.

So u say tht All the 650 years of unjust should be revenged ,,,and is only natural. I guess u should expect it.

Or the Godra Riots were justified...as muslims killed and Burnt the train with hindu pilgrims down first

and the Myanmar exodus is within there right , as the Rohingyas mobs raped and killed a n 11 year old girl..cus its expected right?

guess were on the right track.:tup:

Ur new here so ill give u a word of Advice , Hypocrisy gets shot down fast here.
 
I have always said that instead of blaming Pakistan, India should take the responsibility for being attacked, as that was merely a natural consequence of the horrific treatment of Muslims in their Abu Ghraibs and Guantanamos.

Riyadh Bhai,

You say, effectively, that--
"The Indian media has always holds that the terrorists were based outside the country, with Pakistan and the Lashkar-e-Taiba listed as the usual suspects. But this is a meditated edifice of official India’s political imagination. Its function is to deny that the terrorists could be a homegrown variety, a product of the radicalization of young Indian Muslims who have finally given up on the indigenous political system. To accept this view would imply that the country’s political physicians need to heal themselves"

I am not sure I understand this. Perhaps you could walk me through the logic.

Let us suppose:

1) Pakistan, Lashkar-e-Taiba etcetera have nothing to do with these attacks.
2) The terrorists are all of a homegrown variety
3) They are the product of the horrific treatment of Indian Muslims in their "Abu Ghraibs"
4) They have given up on the indigenous political system
5) They have no hope of ever receiving justice from the Hindu-dominated Court System
6) Having been pushed to the brink, oppressed Indian Muslims simply lashed out in this attack

Let us suppose, without prejudice, that these are true all at once. This then leads to a series of questions:

Why didn't they attack the Offices of the Hindutva Organizations? Aren't they the tormentors of India's Muslims? Why didn't they attack the Courts? Aren't they the ones who have been denying justice to India's Muslims? Why didn't they attack Police Stations? Aren't they the ones who have been torturing India's Muslims in their Abu Ghraibs? Why didn't they attack the Residential Colony that refused Shabana Azmi a flat? Aren't they the ones discriminating against India's Muslims?

Why on earth did they attack a Jewish Center? What possible wrong could the 5000 Jews left in Mumbai have done to 180 million of India's Muslims? Why did they attack Western businessmen and corporate executives at the Taj & Oberoi? Were these Western businessmen and executives tormenting India's Muslims? Why did they attack sick children at the Cama Women's & Children’s Charitable Hospital? Were these sick children torturing India's Muslims? Why did they attack foreign tourists at the Leopold Cafe? Were these foreign tourists responsible for denying justice to India's Muslims? Why did they attack the Metro Cinema? Was the cinema discriminatimg against India's Muslims by denying them entry?

So I am left confused. I don't know what this has to do with the horrific condition of India's Muslims. Perhaps you could get together with Tariq Ali and others like him and try to find answers to all these questions?

Strangely enough, to my mind, a pattern does seem to emerge; one that indicates these attacks were largely focused on Westerners, Jews, foreign tourists, rich businessmen & international corporate executives. The primary objective seems to have been to destroy confidence in India as an international destination for investments, tourism, trade and so on. A secondary objective, as evidenced by the attacks on sick children and Sufi pilgrims seems to have been to provoke visceral outrage and instigate sectarian reprisal violence ("Inflammation will create more inflammation"). But what would India's Muslims gain from all this? How would this help address their grievances?

--

PS: A lot of the people killed at the Railway Station were actually Malwani Sufis who were supposed to catch the connecting Train to Ajmer as they were on the way to their local sect's annual meeting at Ajmer-Sharif. Why were they killed? Was it because they worship dead saints and ask for their blessings from the grave? Were these people then not considered TRUE Muslims, and therefore declared "kaffir" and hence Wajib-ul-Qatl? I am still confused....
 

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