What's new

No, Islam Isn’t Inherently Violent, And The Math Proves It!

You are attempting to justify slavery
No, it was banned by consensus and thus the consensus is that slavery is not justified. I believe that slavery is not justified and should not be done, thus I am not attempting to justify it.
and discriminatory tax practices
Jizya is a replacement for Zakat. What's discriminatory about that? You pay one tax but not the other. You don't pay both. That is not discriminatory.
More details: Refuting lies about Islam: Allegation that Islam expanded by forcing people to pay Jizyah
"kharaj" imposed on "Dhimmis"
Kharaj is tax on agricultural land. It was reformed by consensus during the Umayyad period to be equal and the same regardless of the owner's religion.
I have no intentions of being "shahid" for a worthless cause, so no need for you to be the knight here
Of being ''Shahid''? You mean like Shahid Kapoor ? :enjoy:
No one will kill you for arguing, if that's what you're saying. Except maybe the Taliban or ISIS - but they would agree with you on everything you're saying, so no problem from them either.

I have a bunch of questions for you: What do you think you'll achieve if you manage to convince all Muslims that their religion is evil? Why do you believe the likes of ISIS and Taliban instead of normal,decent people? Do you actually think you know Islam better than a Muslim, or are you just trying to prove your wrong beliefs to yourself?

And @MokshaVimukthi, I almost forgot.
"Dhimmis" (means conqured), who were second class citizens.
They were not second class citizens in any way. They had the same justice system and the same rights as everyone else. Of course, people like you and the terrorists (no, I am not calling you a terrorist) would like it to be the opposite, but fortunately it's not the case.
 
.
I have a bunch of questions for you: What do you think you'll achieve if you manage to convince all Muslims that their religion is evil? Why do you believe the likes of ISIS and Taliban instead of normal,decent people? Do you actually think you know Islam better than a Muslim, or are you just trying to prove your wrong beliefs to yourself?

Promote Rational Thinking and Respect for others.

Islam is what you practice or what is written in the book ? :azn: ............... either answering is damning. Yet they are linked.
 
.
Promote Rational Thinking and Respect for others.
Questioning is a very rational form of thinking. I promote it. And I respectfully disagree with your views regarding my religion.
Islam is what you practice or what is written in the book ?
What I practice is what my book tells me to practice. And it does not include any of what you are saying.
either answering is damning. Yet they are linked.
''I pray five times a day, give charity, fast in Ramadan, struggle to help others, try to be honest and respect others while engaging in intellectual debate to increase my knowledge'' is 'damning'? Could you please tell me a less 'damning' alternative so I can consider it?
 
.
I'm no expert on religions, and won't comment on anybody's faith. I don't think there is a problem with Islam, but there sure is a serious problem with some of its followers.

I have tried to list out the terror attacks that I have noted so far in February 2015. The figures speak for themselves. Here is a list of terror attacks where religion was a motivating factor. Please correct me if my numbers are wrong or if I have missed out a tragedy. If so, it wasn't intentional.

February 4-5 - Boko Haram shoots and burns to death dozens of civilians in Cameroon. Toll - 91
Boko Haram Shoot, Burn To Death Dozens Of Civilians In Cameroon

February 6 - Boko Haram kills 19 people in an attack on a border town in Niger. Toll - 5
Boko Haram attacks border towns in Niger - Al Jazeera English

February 11 - 3 Muslim students shot dead in US. Toll - 3
U.S. gunman kills three young Muslims; motive disputed | Reuters

February 13 - Worshippers killed in suicide bombing in a mosque in Peshawar. Toll - 22
22 Killed, At Least 60 Injured in Blast Outside Mosque in Peshawar

Feb 14 - Shooting at free speech event in Denmark. Toll - 2
Danish police kill 22-year-old suspected of Copenhagen shootings | Reuters

Feb 15 - Coptic Christians beheaded by ISIS in Libya. Toll - 21
ISIS video appears to show beheadings of Egyptian Coptic Christians in Libya - CNN.com

Feb 16 - Bomb blast at Shia mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan. Toll - 3
PressTV-Blast kills 3 at Pakistan Shia mosque

February 17 - Bomb blast outside police lines, Lahore, Pakistan. Toll - 5
Explosion outside Police Lines, Lahore leaves 5 dead - thenews.com.pk

Feb 18 - Bodies of 4 polio workers who had been kidnapped earlier discovered in Balochistan. Toll - 4
PressTV-4 polio workers found dead in Pakistan

Feb 18 - ISIS burns alive 40 people in Syria. Toll - 40
LATEST: ISIS burned up to 40 people alive in Iraqi town, official says | FOX6Now.com
 
.
I'm no expert on religions, and won't comment on anybody's faith. I don't think there is a problem with Islam, but there sure is a serious problem with some of its followers.

I have tried to list out the terror attacks that I have noted so far in February 2015. The figures speak for themselves. Here is a list of terror attacks where religion was a motivating factor. Please correct me if my numbers are wrong or if I have missed out a tragedy. If so, it wasn't intentional.

February 4-5 - Boko Haram shoots and burns to death dozens of civilians in Cameroon. Toll - 91
Boko Haram Shoot, Burn To Death Dozens Of Civilians In Cameroon

February 6 - Boko Haram kills 19 people in an attack on a border town in Niger. Toll - 5
Boko Haram attacks border towns in Niger - Al Jazeera English

February 11 - 3 Muslim students shot dead in US. Toll - 3
U.S. gunman kills three young Muslims; motive disputed | Reuters

February 13 - Worshippers killed in suicide bombing in a mosque in Peshawar. Toll - 22
22 Killed, At Least 60 Injured in Blast Outside Mosque in Peshawar

Feb 14 - Shooting at free speech event in Denmark. Toll - 2
Danish police kill 22-year-old suspected of Copenhagen shootings | Reuters

Feb 15 - Coptic Christians beheaded by ISIS in Libya. Toll - 21
ISIS video appears to show beheadings of Egyptian Coptic Christians in Libya - CNN.com

Feb 16 - Bomb blast at Shia mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan. Toll - 3
PressTV-Blast kills 3 at Pakistan Shia mosque

February 17 - Bomb blast outside police lines, Lahore, Pakistan. Toll - 5
Explosion outside Police Lines, Lahore leaves 5 dead - thenews.com.pk

Feb 18 - Bodies of 4 polio workers who had been kidnapped earlier discovered in Balochistan. Toll - 4
PressTV-4 polio workers found dead in Pakistan

Feb 18 - ISIS burns alive 40 people in Syria. Toll - 40
LATEST: ISIS burned up to 40 people alive in Iraqi town, official says | FOX6Now.com

Exactly which of these groups are Muslims?

Boko Haram a pominent Pimp has nothing to do with a religion!
ISIS? Who openly ask for women to give their bodies? Which religion asks of that?
You included Muslims being killed no where in the Quran is that requested off! THAT alone speaks how much of these people doing the killing can be called Muslims!
 
Last edited:
.
That part is a lie. As I have described in my posts, there is very clear and VERY, VERY RESTRICTING CONTEXT for all the Quranic verses. There is also restricting context for the terms 'Kafir' and 'Jihad'. Their literary context is restricting it to one specific time and one specific place and so is the historical one.

I agree with you on this one.I recently had a discussion with @Falcon29 about this,saying the exact same thing,verses in the Quran,Old Testament should be put in historical context and taken as such.The problem arises when people such as the poster mentioned by me insists that they should be taken ad litteram and applied in the present day.And there are many muslims like him.
 
.
The problem arises when people such as the poster mentioned by me insists that they should be taken ad litteram and applied in the present day.And there are many muslims like him.
Of the verses some can be applied like dont lie dont hurt thy neighbours...Nothing is as simple as being painted with the same brush!
 
.
Of the verses some can be applied like dont lie dont hurt thy neighbours...Nothing is as simple as being painted with the same brush!


Ofcourse.The problem arises when some insist on taking everything ad litteram as the absolute word of God.
 
.
Hi,

The American military committed large scale killings---. They did not have any brains to think before they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan----. They thought the Iraqis and afg's are gutless like the Japanese, german, Vietnamese, and whatever countries they invaded and left.

The things would not have been bad---but for our All American Girl Lyndi England and her boyfriend and other at abu Ghraib-----payback is a bitch---

HERE IS AN IRAQI FULL OF FECES
View attachment 194575

OUR ALL AMERICAN GIRL LYNDI ENGLAND AND HER BOYFRIEND
View attachment 194576
View attachment 194577 View attachment 194579


These americans did sickening acts of brutality against the prisoners---they should have rather executed the prisoners than to humiliate them.

And these pictures are supposedly not that bad----the real bad stuff would make the viewer insane----. Thanks to Rumsfeld---those pictures would not be released.

Bottomline---do not degrade muslim prisoners of war---. Either kill them or treat them with humanity---otherwise----it is all about BADAL.

There will be no forgiveness for these psychopaths. On contrary our punishment is to come soon. And we won't stop at all until something called crusader and Zionist is wiped off and sent to God for eternal torture.
 
.
Ofcourse.The problem arises when some insist on taking everything ad litteram as the absolute word of God.
There is nothing wrong with taking everything litteram!

In fact somethings like the commands TO THE PROPHET should be taken as literally as TO THE PROPHET not to the rest of the people (as how they are portrayed)...Quran kind of fits both ways...HOWEVER, those who hide the context ARE the problem like that Indian who got banned :enjoy:
 
.
Islam is a religion of peace but certain Muslim communities are definitely not about peace. Non-Muslims view Islam by looking at the the behaviour of Muslims and sadly its not that exemplary. There are good Muslims all around the world living peacefully and not bothering anyone. You will never hear what they think about terrorist. You will never see them on Fox News, CNN or Sky.
 
.
I agree with you on this one.I recently had a discussion with @Falcon29 about this,saying the exact same thing,verses in the Quran,Old Testament should be put in historical context and taken as such.The problem arises when people such as the poster mentioned by me insists that they should be taken ad litteram and applied in the present day.And there are many muslims like him.

You make no sense at all. I said basic tenets of religions don't change. Has nothing to do with historical context.
 
.
@flamer84 @Akheilos @Falcon29
When it comes to the context and interpretation, there are many things to take into account.

Firstly, literary context - read the words, verses and their context within the text itself. So, for example, the famous 'verse of the sword' in Surah At Tawbah says ''kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.'' [9:5]

But, when you look at the previous verse, [9:4], it says ''Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you''

The very next verse, [9:6], says ''And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety.''

If verse [9:5] is presented alone, it seems very brutal and aggressive indeed. But then the following and preceding verses give clear restrictions and guidelines.

Secondly, addressees - who is the verse being addressed to? Usually, the beginning of the chapter shows this. In the case of At-Tawbah, it says: ''[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.(i.e the ones who broke the treaty and were deficient towards the Muslims - the ones who kept their treaty are excepted)''

Notice how it says 'Allah and His Messenger'. Not ''all Muslims for eternity''. That shows that it is restricted to a particular group of Muslims.

Then, verse [9:7] clearly restricts it to the specific group of Polytheists in Makkah (''...those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram''). Not all the polytheists in the world for eternity.

Therefore, this chapter is addressed to the Polytheists of Makkah.

Thirdly, conditions and circumstances: - Generally, in most situations in life (not just religious), the response to one situation is generally different than the response to another situation. A similar principle applies here. Every command and every such verse has conditions attached to it. It never a blanket statement for all things for eternity. Now, in this chapter (At Tawbah), the circumstances are clearly defined:
''So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them.'' [9:7]

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. [9:12]

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? [9:13]

So, it is clear: these verses only apply when they broke their treaties and attacked first.

Fourthly, historical context: If it isn't obvious enough already, this verse is referring to the pagans of Makkah and their conspiracies. However, much of it was revealed during the Battle of Tabuk against the Byzantines, which are the verses that talk about a long journey and hypocrites from within who attempted to sabotage the expedition.

Read the chapter yourself if you want to : Surat At-Tawbah - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

Fifth and final - Language and figurative expressions:
The Holy Quran's chapter 78 deals with some of God's creations. It says: ''Have We not made the earth a resting place?'' ''And the mountains as stakes?''
Obviously, it does not literally mean that the whole of Earth is a resting place and that the mountains are stakes. Such verses are what confuse some people, who are unfortunately less intellectually gifted (to say the least) than the average. Resulting in stupid things like ''the Earth is stationary'' etc being spread.
Surat An-Naba' - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

Now, all this may seem like a lot and complicated, but in reality, it is not. This is how everything should be read.

You don't read the Constitution of the US and read the part that says ''No Person shall be a Representative'' and start lobbing molotovs to burn down Congress because they are people and aren't supposed to be representatives.

You would immediately read the very next line that says ''who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years... (and so on)''

Then why not do the same with religious scripture?

Sorry for the long post and the religious discussion, but it was relevant and required.
 
Last edited:
.
Let them have the 'math'. This is straining the math in same vein as how the Muslims often strains logic to 'prove' the Quran predicted many of today's scientific discoveries and achievement in order to at least share the credit, if not able to take the credit outright.

@gambit

Is stupidity is your new claim of fame---what does qura'an have to do with the killings of afghans by the americans during their occupation.
 
.
There are many Surahs of Quran which have been abrogated with newer ones.

In Surah 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

It is general perception that Quran is timeless. Then why would the all-knowing, all-wise, creator and sustainer of the universe; the eternal, self-existent Allah, give such time-bound revelations?

Moreover, the benign Surahs quoted by most of the muslim scholars and pacifists were revealed during earlier times of Hazrat Muhammad, SAW when he was just starting his public life. As he got control over more and more lands, his revelations also got more and more stricter & virulent.

That part is a lie. As I have described in my posts, there is very clear and VERY, VERY RESTRICTING CONTEXT for all the Quranic verses. There is also restricting context for the terms 'Kafir' and 'Jihad'. Their literary context is restricting it to one specific time and one specific place and so is the historical one.


From a link I provided:

Refuting lies about Islam: Allegation that the Quran tells Muslims to 'kill disbelievers wherever you find them'

The chapter itself is also littered with rules and restrictions, for example this:
''If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge." [Quran, 9:6]

By peddling the exact same narrative the terrorists use, despite having it debunked dozens of times, you are literally helping the terrorists.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom