No country for brave men

[mjnaushad]

assalam alaikum

Brother we can go on, she got convicted by the law of the land he went to the prison and told the wolrd aisi ki taisi iss saza ki

May be if i insult ( Allah na karay ) u, u will feel to kill me but i wont feel it like that

Insulting each other is not like Insulting the prophet (PBUH) or siding with the ppl who GOT CONVICTED of the crime.

TARIQ

how many times to I have to write this ....Her appeal is pending......She didn't give up the fight.... Her appeal is pending means her case still to be decided.

 

[Durrak]

how many times to I have to write this ....Her appeal is pending......She didn't give up the fight.... Her appeal is pending means her case still to be decided.

I saw her interview on one of the news channel
According to her she is innocent someone trapped her
Allah Knows better

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

assalam alaikum

FIR against whom? when these ppl don't accept the court verdicts and when ppl r convicted they pardon them ( rehman malik etc) and if someone gets the verdict those same ppl ( ST ) who must respect the law goto the prison and say she will get pardoned depsite the court ruling, now who is not accepting the law?

TARIQ

Then work to change the system. Frustration with the way the system works is not an excuse to go around killing people.

You lot are always pushing Utopian visions of 'imposing Islamic System', how about settling for more immediate and important issues such as reforming Law Enforcement and making it more autonomous and able to implement court orders free of political interference?

You do absolutely nothing to change things, and then justify yet more lawlessness and evil when it fits in with your intolerance for minorities and freedoms.

 

[Solomon2]

I saw her interview on one of the news channel
According to her she is innocent someone trapped her
Allah Knows better

YOU are falling into a trap! The point isn't whether she is guilty or not - the radicals are using the mere charge of blasphemy to circumvent the rule-of-law in favor of imposing their own will. That is why they don't want even its implementation questioned by the likes of a Salman Taseer. The "Black Law" is a back-door way to impose Taliban-like rule throughout the country.

 

[Mabs]

This law need to be abolished, because most of time people take advantage of this law to take out personal rivalry or land grabbing in remote areas in Pakistan. If someone is guilty then court should provide complete protection from mullahs. But unfortunately people in muslim world has so much love for the Islamic icons, but hate for fellow human being. Hypoism at its peak.
Love, respect and JUSTICE for fellow human being means we have love and respect for Holy Prophet PBUM, that's his teaching.

Pakistan Penal Code 302 ( manslaughter in the first degree) is abused as well. Do we abolish that too? Do we just abolish all of the laws in PPC, and let our morals guide us to live with love,respect and justice. I have said it a million times, there are procedural issues with the blasphemy law but that does not make the entire law redundant.

If there were no blasphemy law, I could accuse you with blasphemy and kill you right now ,and not face any legal proceedings because there is no law to charge me with. At least now. I have a legal course to take if I think you indulged in blasphemy, but without this law people would just kill anyone, call it their religious obligation and get away with it.

I do not give these arguments out of religious zealousness, but purely from a legal and administrative standpoint. To understand the ST incident, we have to understand the PPC, the judicial system of Pakistan and how it dispenses justice. The crux of the problem is the judicial system of our country and the PPC. The PPC itself is outdated with regards to many laws which makes them vulnerable and easy to manipulate. Some of the active laws were written as far back as the colonial era. The police uses investigative methods which were prevalent in the British Raj which mainly compromises of compromise and coercion. Even if the investigation is done in the right manner, and the accused are presented in the court, there are a million ways to complicate and stall the proceedings. People find it more appropriate to either come to a compromise, or not take the route of law at all.

Have we forgotten the Sialkot incident? Was that out of religious bigotry as well? Has our judicial system been able to put the culprits involved in that heinous crime to justice? The Sialkot incident had nothing to do with religion, but with the simple fact that people have lost their trust and fear of the Pakistani laws and its judicial system. The perpetrators believe that they will never get caught, while the abused feel that the law will not, and is unable to protect them. Was Mukhtara Mai the only woman, was was abused? No, but she was one of the very few who reported it, and a minuscule minority who decided to pursue it legally. The reason is again, lack of trust in our Law Enforcement institutions.

I know we all like to bash the mullahs, I am not a big fan of them either but, for Heaven's sake people, let's not lose our objectivity here. Someone was stupid enough to give in to his emotions, and kill the governor, and now by chanting "down with the mullahs, repel the blasphemy law", we are acting equally stupid, if not more. What we need right now is to revisit our existing laws and procedures, and revamp whatever is obsolete. The last time we did that was in 1955, when the GoP commissioned some political scientists from the US to analyze our Public Administration system, and point out its deficiencies. Go figure.

 

[Mabs]

YOU are falling into a trap! The point isn't whether she is guilty or not - the radicals are using the mere charge of blasphemy to circumvent the rule-of-law in favor of imposing their own will. That is why they don't want even its implementation questioned by the likes of a Salman Taseer. The "Black Law" is a back-door way to impose Taliban-like rule throughout the country.

Solomon, every nation,country and people harbor sensitivities about some issue, and find it extremely agitating when someone tries to meddle with it.In your case, it is the Holocaust, in Pakistan's case it's religion. The Holocaust law is there, because a lot of people are sensitive about it and to protect their feelings, a law has been placed to avoid any chaos, for the greater good of the society. Similarly, a lot of people are sensitive about religion in Pakistan so to avoid any complications, and for the greater good of the society, the blasphemy law is there. It was Dalton I think, who proposed the Law of Maximum Social Advantage, which states that that not all the people can be satisfied all the time. The best we can do is to maximize the collective advantage and minimize the collective sacrifice, and the procedural changes supported by me and many others are in fact geared towards minimizing that collective sacrifice of the society. Also, many countries have Hate Speech law, which prohibits anyone from ridiculing any religious figure, which is not that different from the Blasphemy Law.

It is not there to turn Pakistan into a Taliban like state or to prosecute the minorities. Majority of the people, charged under it were Muslims, almost 97 %. Even now, if you see it as a "Black Law", I would gladly vote to repel it, if you vouch to do the same for the Holocaust Law.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

That's what scares me. That you consider yourself a liberal and that it might actually be true.

Imeant , i am not a mullah. We can never be liberal to an extent where we have to accept the insult our loved (P.B.U.H). Dont be scared , we are supporters of modrnisation , women rights , modern lifestyle etc , however no muslim can accept blasphemy . It is a very sensitive matter and nobody has a right to do blasphemy , one should respet all religeous personalities .

 

[I FLY HIGH]

If Salman Taseer was talking against the man made law of blasphemy, because of some weaknesses in it, then who give right to Qadri Mumtaz to take law in his hand and kill Salman Taseer?

Be-aware people, this incident is showing the real face of our mullahs and our countrymen !

It is a divine law however its procedure of implementation is man made . He should have talked to improve the procedure to avoid innocent people getting affected by this law , but sadly to make vetican and west happy he called it a BLACK LAW. He tried to overrun the court procedure in Miss Aasia case by letting her Presidential pardon . When you try to overrun law , law can be taken into hands by Qadri type of people . Qadri will be treated in the court of law and will be decided in the courts .

 

[Solomon2]

If there were no blasphemy law, I could accuse you with blasphemy and kill you right now ,and not face any legal proceedings because there is no law to charge me with. At least now. I have a legal course to take if I think you indulged in blasphemy, but without this law people would just kill anyone, call it their religious obligation and get away with it.

Hey, I think you're on to something here...there are two issues, one being the Black Law and the second being its enforcement.

If proceedings against persons accused of blasphemy were handled through a normal legal process, I doubt there would be so much problem with the Black Law. But that isn't happening, is it? Although the Black Law is on the books, the people demonstrating don't want it subject to legal process at all, do they? They want to employ the mere accusation to wield power over their terrified fellow citizens.

...The crux of the problem is the judicial system of our country and the PPC. The PPC itself is outdated with regards to many laws which makes them vulnerable and easy to manipulate. Some of the active laws were written as far back as the colonial era....we need right now is to revisit our existing laws and procedures, and revamp whatever is obsolete.

The Law can be repealed, the legal code revised, but the real Black is in people's minds, isn't it? What is not just the best way but the most practical way to address that, an initiative that shows immediate and systemic results?

 

[Solomon2]

The Holocaust law is there, because a lot of people are sensitive about it and to protect their feelings...

Strange that this keeps popping up. I'll take a few moments to correct this. Holocaust-denial laws are on the books of several European countries, but not out of any influence by or feeling for the Jews. Everyone knows what happened. The laws exist so the Europeans can assure themselves that they are not subject to even the shadow of Nazi totalitarianism via its truth-denying gibberish.

To those that try to offend or upset me by engaging in Holocaust denial, I simply ask, "Are you willing to help me find my grandparents?"

...the Law of Maximum Social Advantage, which states that that not all the people can be satisfied all the time. The best we can do is to maximize the collective advantage and minimize the collective sacrifice, and the procedural changes supported by me and many others are in fact geared towards minimizing that collective sacrifice of the society -

It's a sick "Law", just look at what the Fascists and Communists did with it. As far as history demonstrates, I'd argue that the greatest collective good is done by granting the individual citizen maximum freedom and property rights as long as he doesn't impinge upon the same rights of his fellows. History shows these can be enforced fairly; "Group rights" are open to abuse by self-willed politicians in the struggle for power.

 

[Ababeel]

Many Muslims seem to have no problems insulting the Ahmadi prophet, religion and people, as well as Hindus and Hindu deities ...

First of all there will be no Prophet after Prophet of Islam. Whoever declares himself prophet will be a Kazzab or lair and this is as per Hadith or saying of our beloved prophet. Kadiyanis or Ahmedis should not insist that they are muslims nobody will touch them. They should stop their propaganda on MTA Channel and stop show off of Quran recitation or study of hadith when they are no more accepting the end of Prophethood on Prophet of Islam. Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani was a Blasphemer and as per the Hadith of Prophet the Liar or Kazzab.
They should stay away from interfering in Islam and it;s way of life and muslim will not interfere in their affairs.

Yes muslims also have no right to insult Idol or diety of any other religion. Whoever does this is wrong and ignorant as Quran stops muslim from doing so. However its not a general case where the whole anti-islam forces are together to support Asia Bibi even after her acceptance of the crime. Muslim amsses did not support M.F.Hussain in this type of case when Hindus acuse him of Blasphemy against their diety and he took refuse in Qatar.

 

[Mabs]

Hey, I think you're on to something here...there are two issues, one being the Black Law and the second being its enforcement.

If proceedings against persons accused of blasphemy were handled through a normal legal process, I doubt there would be so much problem with the Black Law. But that isn't happening, is it? Although the Black Law is on the books, the people demonstrating don't want it subject to legal process at all, do they? They want to employ the mere accusation to wield power over their terrified fellow citizens.

Not just them, everyone does, including you and me. Who does not like the idea of being all mighty and powerful, to bypass all rules and regulations to do whatever they please? It is an intrinsic human urge to be in control of everything. The difference is that we have the cognitive maturity and knowledge to not give into these temptations. Unfortunately not everyone is capable enough to see through the mirage due to many socio-economic factors. This is why, it is all so important right now to make the laws and their implementation so rigid that, no one dares to violate them, no matter how ignorant, violent,powerful or resourceful they are.

The Law can be repealed, the legal code revised, but the real Black is in people's minds, isn't it? What is not just the best way but the most practical way to address that, an initiative that shows immediate and systemic results?

There is an immediate and systematic way, but it will not bear immediate results -- that is to educate ourselves on the sensitive issues, create the environment where everyone has equal and fair opportunities, create economic and social justice so that no one is inclined towards violence and crime,and last but certainty not the least, restore people's faith in the government and its institutions.

Sound decisions can be expected from a sound mind, who has a sound knowledge. The guy who killed the governor had 6 siblings, his dad was a daily wager and he was the eldest. Do you think that he had the ideal socio-economic conditions which made him able enough to make the right decision? Do you think he had the opportunity or access to good education which would have ripened his thought process? Somehow,we all are responsible for the governor's death because we were unable to provide him with the environment, where he was less prone to manipulation and misjudgment.

 

[Mabs]

Strange that this keeps popping up. I'll take a few moments to correct this. Holocaust-denial books are on the books of several European countries, but not out of any influence by or feeling for the Jews. Everyone knows what happened. The laws exist so the Europeans can assure themselves that they are not subject to even the shadow of Nazi totalitarianism via its truth-denying gibberish..

Exactly my point, let who want to deny the Holocaust all the want. In the face of the overwhelming truth, their gibberish will smither away.

It's a sick "Law", just look at what the Fascists and Communists did with it. As far as history demonstrates, I'd argue that the greatest collective good is done by granting the individual citizen maximum freedom and property rights as long as he doesn't impinge upon the same rights of his fellows. History shows these can be enforced fairly; "Group rights" are open to abuse by self-willed politicians in the struggle for power.

If you would ponder upon it closely, you will find that the law of Maximum social advantage is very much in play vis- a-vis the American War on Terror. The few soldiers are sacrificing their lives for the freedom and protection of many back home. I do not agree with the WoT and the way it's been carried out, but I would not go as far as calling it a war based upon a sick law.

 

[pak-marine]

why cant Pakistan implement some thing against religious discrimination and ban these hate speeches against all religions and it must include all religions ...

 

[Solomon2]

Unfortunately not everyone is capable enough to see through the mirage due to many socio-economic factors. This is why, it is all so important right now to make the laws and their implementation so rigid that, no one dares to violate them -

This does not sound realistic to me. It does, however, sound like a means to enforce the will of a corrupt ruling class upon the powerless.

The guy who killed the governor had 6 siblings, his dad was a daily wager and he was the eldest. Do you think that he had the ideal socio-economic conditions which made him able enough to make the right decision?

Even more reason for the simple clarity of vision, purpose, and effect that would be obtained by abolishing the blasphemy law and - at least as important - criminalizing the deeds of those who take the law in their own hands.

Still, legal reform is needed. I've addressed this several times. The two approaches I can think of are to make Pakistan's equivalent of Attorney Generals elective posts, and to bring the Pakistani Army under civilian oversight by having the legislature appoint Inspector Generals. An elected Attorney General assures the people that the injustices that will be pursued are the ones closest to them, and the Inspector Generals will allow disaffected soldiers and bureaucrats to report the wrongdoings of their superiors.