Newsflash: Yet another mig-21 crash, pilot killed

[janon]

Plz tell me why IAF use so old fighters to send pilots goto dead when you can cost 80 million for a Rafale?

Precisely because of that 80 million price tag. We bought around 900 mig 21. Could India have afforded that many rafales or even mirages? Currently we have 264 mig 21s which need to be replaced, as well as 80 mig 27s (equally old) and 100 jags. Can the IAF afford to buy that many rafales?

We don't have the budget of the USAF or the USN, we have to make do with what we have.

 

[hurt]

Precisely because of that 80 million price tag. We bought around 900 mig 21. Could India have afforded that many rafales or even mirages? Currently we have 264 mig 21s which need to be replaced, as well as 80 mig 27s (equally old) and 100 jags. Can the IAF afford to buy that many rafales?

We don't have the budget of the USAF or the USN, we have to make do with what we have.

Indian Military Budget is more than china before 2000.We own lots old fights but we cut off all the old fights.From 4500 fights to 1,600 fights ,why not IAF

 

[kurup]

RIP to the pilot .

 

[janon]

Indian Military Budget is more than china before 2000.We own lots old fights but we cut off all the old fights.From 4500 fights to 1,600 fights ,why not IAF

So did the IAF. IAF has also cut down the number of squadrons drastically, and relies more on the newer MKIs and mirages and mig 29s. But the number of older mig 21s and mig 27s and mig 23s (now fully decommissioned) was so large that we simply could not purchase newer platforms at the same rate.

Several squadrons of mig 21s and mig 27s and mig 23s have been decommissioned in the past decade, and at least one squadron of mig 21s is decommissioned each year now.

And no, China's defence budget was NOT lower than India's before 2000. In fact, the decade of 1989-1999 was the worst for the Indian armed forces, because of the economic disaster that happened in the late 80s/early 90s. The financial crisis of 1993 meant that for the rest of the decade, virtually no money was available to the armed forces, and they could not do a single modernization program during that period. Indeed, they call it the "lost decade".

It is because of the "lost decade" that the armed forces are plagued with so much obsolescence now. Since no new fighters were procured during that time, and we cannot simply retire half our fleet with no replacement in sight, the IAF had no choice but to bravely soldier on using whatever was available. And that is why the pilots had to fly fighters that were older than themselves.

China's military spending was much bigger than India's in that period, and it is so today. By the way, you should know that what china used to call "military budget" did not give the true picture of their military spending. Development of military infrastructure, military education were all paid for separately, under "construction budget" and "education budget" and so on. And even without taking into account all that, China's budget was substantially bigger than India's - which is not surprising, since the Indian economy was in death throes at that time. The subsequent economic reforms and the resulting economic growth is what made funds available after 2000.

Here is an analysis of China's military spending from 1989-1998:

www.cuhk.edu.hk/gpa/wang_files/Milex.pdf

 

[hurt]

Precisely because of that 80 million price tag. We bought around 900 mig 21. Could India have afforded that many rafales or even mirages? Currently we have 264 mig 21s which need to be replaced, as well as 80 mig 27s (equally old) and 100 jags. Can the IAF afford to buy that many rafales?

We don't have the budget of the USAF or the USN, we have to make do with what we have.

PLAAF produced 300 J-7Es to replace J-6s and J-7Is from 1993 until 2001.
It only cost US$ 2 millions per J-7E basic version（without radar）.
PLAAF produced 150 J-7Gs to replace J-7Is and J-7IIs from 2006 until 2009.
Why not IAF?

 

[hurt]

So did the IAF. IAF has also cut down the number of squadrons drastically, and relies more on the newer MKIs and mirages and mig 29s. But the number of older mig 21s and mig 27s and mig 23s (now fully decommissioned) was so large that we simply could not purchase newer platforms at the same rate.

Several squadrons of mig 21s and mig 27s and mig 23s have been decommissioned in the past decade, and at least one squadron of mig 21s is decommissioned each year now.

And no, China's defence budget was NOT lower than India's before 2000. In fact, the decade of 1989-1999 was the worst for the Indian armed forces, because of the economic disaster that happened in the late 80s/early 90s. The financial crisis of 1993 meant that for the rest of the decade, virtually no money was available to the armed forces, and they could not do a single modernization program during that period. Indeed, they call it the "lost decade".

It is because of the "lost decade" that the armed forces are plagued with so much obsolescence now. Since no new fighters were procured during that time, and we cannot simply retire half our fleet with no replacement in sight, the IAF had no choice but to bravely soldier on using whatever was available. And that is why the pilots had to fly fighters that were older than themselves.

China's military spending was much bigger than India's in that period, and it is so today. By the way, you should know that what china used to call "military budget" did not give the true picture of their military spending. Development of military infrastructure, military education were all paid for separately, under "construction budget" and "education budget" and so on. And even without taking into account all that, China's budget was substantially bigger than India's - which is not surprising, since the Indian economy was in death throes at that time. The subsequent economic reforms and the resulting economic growth is what made funds available after 2000.

Here is an analysis of China's military spending from 1989-1998:

www.cuhk.edu.hk/gpa/wang_files/Milex.pdf

Its bullshit.
plz tell me that indian Police and Militia need pay for military budget?
People's Armed Police and Militia dont need fights and tanks.
They not belong 2.3 Millions PLA.
Plz tell me indian space Institute need pay for military budget?

 

[janon]

PLAAF produced 300 J-7Es to replace J-6s and J-7Is from 1993 until 2001.
It only cost US$ 2 millions per J-7E basic version（without radar）.
PLAAF produced 150 J-7Gs to replace J-7Is and J-7IIs from 2006 until 2009.
Why not IAF?

Because India did not have an aerospace industry like china did. It was not the IAF's fault, but the entire country's. Since the "marut" was built by HAL in the 50s/60s, there was no further attempt to make aircrafts ourselves. There was no r&d, no engineering or technical expertise in that area. There were several reasons for this. In that period, we could get aircrafts from the soviet union at highly subsidized rates. (Indeed, many of the mig 21s were bartered for foodgrains.) And of course, private industry did not exist for defence research or manufacture. (Almost everything was strictly govt controlled back then, not just defence.) And the govt institutions did not have the foresight to plan for the future and to build an aerospace ecosystem.

So in the 90s India could not indigenously design and manufacture aircrafts cheaply like China could. China was reaping the rewards of investing in aerospace. Only in the 90s was this evident to us, after the fall of the soviet union, when it was realized that the days of cheap military imports was over. That is why we undertook the ambitious Tejas project, to develop the aerospace industry. We will be reaping the rewards of that investment from about 5 years from now, when we start making our own fighters (Tejas, AMCA...)

So you see, it is pointless to keep comparing India with other countries and saying "they did that, why didn't India?" The circumstances for each country is very different. Every time you make a comparison and ask why India did not do that, there will be a lot of comparative history that I will have to trot out. Stop comparing India to the US or China or anybody else, it is a waste of time. The message you have to take from all these responses is that India is not flying the mig-21s simply because she doesn't care for her pilots. It is because we don't have a choice. Some of it is our own fault, some of it was lack of funds, some of it is social and historic circumstances, but the fact is that today we have no choice but to use what we have.

Its bullshit.
plz tell me that indian Police and Militia need pay for military budget?
People's Armed Police and Militia dont need fights and tanks.
They not belong 2.3 Millions PLA.
Plz tell me indian space Institute need pay for military budget?

I did not say anything about police or militia. Either Indian or China's. If you are unable to comprehend that long para, just take this simple message - that India's military budget was NOT bigger than China's, as you asserted. The rest may be too much info for you.

 

[Brahmos_2]

RIP

What happened to the ejection seat

 

[hurt]

Because India did not have an aerospace industry like china did. It was not the IAF's fault, but the entire country's. Since the "marut" was built by HAL in the 50s/60s, there was no further attempt to make aircrafts ourselves. There was no r&d, no engineering or technical expertise in that area. There were several reasons for this. In that period, we could get aircrafts from the soviet union at highly subsidized rates. (Indeed, many of the mig 21s were bartered for foodgrains.) And of course, private industry did not exist for defence research or manufacture. (Almost everything was strictly govt controlled back then, not just defence.) And the govt institutions did not have the foresight to plan for the future and to build an aerospace ecosystem.

So in the 90s India could not indigenously design and manufacture aircrafts cheaply like China could. China was reaping the rewards of investing in aerospace. Only in the 90s was this evident to us, after the fall of the soviet union, when it was realized that the days of cheap military imports was over. That is why we undertook the ambitious Tejas project, to develop the aerospace industry. We will be reaping the rewards of that investment from about 5 years from now, when we start making our own fighters (Tejas, AMCA...)

So you see, it is pointless to keep comparing India with other countries and saying "they did that, why didn't India?" The circumstances for each country is very different. Every time you make a comparison and ask why India did not do that, there will be a lot of comparative history that I will have to trot out. Stop comparing India to the US or China or anybody else, it is a waste of time. The message you have to take from all these responses is that India is not flying the mig-21s simply because she doesn't care for her pilots. It is because we don't have a choice. Some of it is our own fault, some of it was lack of funds, some of it is social and historic circumstances, but the fact is that today we have no choice but to use what we have.

You are right ,but PLAAF rather disarmament than use what we have.

I did not say anything about police or militia. Either Indian or China's. If you are unable to comprehend that long para, just take this simple message - that India's military budget was NOT bigger than China's, as you asserted. The rest may be too much info for you.

You dont know about china.You know that IA small than PLA ，less Fighters,less tanks,less ships .India's military budget for per Soldier really bigger than china.

 

[janon]

You dont know about china.You know that IA small than PLA ，less Fighters,less tanks,less ships .India's military budget for per Soldier really bigger than china.

Wrong again. India has 1.1 million+ soldiers, and China has 750,000. Look up the recent white paper on defence released by China. And China's defence budget is several times bigger than India's. We spend a lot less per soldier than China does. As for ships and aircrafts, India purchases most of it from abroad using dollar reserves, while China manufactures them at home and spends using the local currency.

Please stop coming up with completely wrong data points.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-04/16/c_132312681.htm

http://www.china.org.cn/government/whitepaper/node_7181425.htm

 

[hurt]

Wrong again. India has 1.1 million+ soldiers, and China has 750,000. Look up the recent white paper on defence released by China. And China's defence budget is several times bigger than India's. We spend a lot less per soldier than China does. As for ships and aircrafts, India purchases most of it from abroad using dollar reserves, while China manufactures them at home and spends using the local currency.

Please stop coming up with completely wrong data points.

Full Text: The Diversified Employment of China's Armed Forces - Xinhua | English.news.cn

The Diversified Employment of China's Armed Forces - china.org.cn

750,000

Your link
Govt. White Papers - china.org.cn
The PLAAF now has a total strength of 398,000 officers and men.
Currently, the PLAN has a total strength of 235,000 officers and men.

The PLA Army (PLAA) is composed of mobile operational units, border and coastal defense units, guard and garrison units.
The PLAA mobile operational units include 18 combined corps, plus additional independent combined operational divisions (brigades), and have a total strength of 850,000.

Ｐｌｚ　tell me ? = 398,000 + 235,000 + 850,000


There about 1.3 Million border and coastal defense units, guard and garrison units. too.

e.g. The PLA　ｉｎ　Ｃｈｉｎａ-Indian border　ａｌｌ　ａｒｅ　border defense units．

total is 2.3 Millions officers and men..

 

[janon]

750,000

Your link
Govt. White Papers - china.org.cn
The PLAAF now has a total strength of 398,000 officers and men.
Currently, the PLAN has a total strength of 235,000 officers and men.

The PLA Army (PLAA) is composed of mobile operational units, border and coastal defense units, guard and garrison units.
The PLAA mobile operational units include 18 combined corps, plus additional independent combined operational divisions (brigades), and have a total strength of 850,000.

There about 1 Million border and coastal defense units, guard and garrison units.

e.g. The PLA　ｉｎ　Ｃｈｉｎａ-Indian border　ａｌｌ　ａｒｅ　border defense units．

Earlier you yourself said that militias should be counted separately (even though I did not even mention militias). If you are including your border guards and coastal defence and garrison units, please add India's BSF, coast guard, ITBP, SSB and SFF and military police also. That's another cool million for you.

You are pretty god at "creative accounting", but it wi9ll not escape scrutiny, I'm afraid.

I was strictly following an army to army comparison, without including the border guards and other such units. It is a fact that India's army is numerically bigger than China's and another two mountain divisions and a mountain strike corps is being raised as we type.

The PLA has 850,000 people, as the link says. Which makes your earlier claim that India spends more per soldier invalid. What further invalidates that point is that China spends 3 times more than India on defence. And yet neither the army, nor the combined armed forces, nor the combined armed forces and border guards is three times bigger than India's. Not even close.

So I repeat: Your claim that India spends more per soldier is wrong.

(What next, going to come up with the internal troops? So that I can retort with crpf? Just admit the mistake and move on.)

 

[hurt]

Wrong again. India has 1.1 million+ soldiers, and China has 750,000. Look up the recent white paper on defence released by China. And China's defence budget is several times bigger than India's. We spend a lot less per soldier than China does. As for ships and aircrafts, India purchases most of it from abroad using dollar reserves, while China manufactures them at home and spends using the local currency.

Please stop coming up with completely wrong data points.

Full Text: The Diversified Employment of China's Armed Forces - Xinhua | English.news.cn

The Diversified Employment of China's Armed Forces - china.org.cn

PLA have ２．３　million+ soldiers，7,000 MBTs,5,500 APCs ,2,200 IFVs,７５　Modern warships，60 submarines，５５　amphib　shipｓ，８０　Missile boatｓ，２，８００　ｐｌａｎｅｓ　ｉｎｃｌｕｄｅ　１，７００　ｆｉｇｈｅｒｓ　ａｎｄ　ａｔｔａｃｋｅｒｓ　，１０００＋　ballistic missileｓ．

ＩＡ　ｉｓ　ｂｉｇｇｅｒ？

 

[janon]

PLA have ２．３　million+ soldiers，7,000 MBTs,5,500 APCs ,2,200 IFVs,７５　Modern warships，60 submarines，５５　amphib　shipｓ，８０　Missile boatｓ，２，８００　ｐｌａｎｅｓ　ｉｎｃｌｕｄｅ　１，７００　ｆｉｇｈｅｒｓ　ａｎｄ　ａｔｔａｃｋｅｒｓ　，１０００＋　ballistic missileｓ．

ＩＡ　ｉｓ　ｂｉｇｇｅｒ？

Yay, good for you.

(I already explained to you why that doesn't translate to savings, since India has to import. Look at post #55. But at this point you are simply trying to win an internet battle, rather than have a constructive discussion, and frankly I'm not even sure what you are trying to prove, so good luck!)

 

[hurt]

Earlier you yourself said that militias should be counted separately (even though I did not even mention militias). If you are including your border guards and coastal defence and garrison units, please add India's BSF, coast guard, ITBP, SSB and SFF and military police also. That's another cool million for you.

You are pretty god at "creative accounting", but it wi9ll not escape scrutiny, I'm afraid.

I was strictly following an army to army comparison, without including the border guards and other such units. It is a fact that India's army is numerically bigger than China's and another two mountain divisions and a mountain strike corps is being raised as we type.

The PLA has 850,000 people, as the link says. Which makes your earlier claim that India spends more per soldier invalid. What further invalidates that point is that China spends 3 times more than India on defence. And yet neither the army, nor the combined armed forces, nor the combined armed forces and border guards is three times bigger than India's. Not even close.

So I repeat: Your claim that India spends more per soldier is wrong.

(What next, going to come up with the internal troops? So that I can retort with crpf? Just admit the mistake and move on.)

border guards and coastal defence and garrison units　ａｒｅ　ｎｏｔ　militias．Ｔｈｅｙ　ａｒｅ　Regular army．

China have 660,000 People's Armed Police ，3 Millions militias. 16,000 china coast guard.