News for Mirage-2000 upgrade

[navtrek]

i guess india would do anything to stop the deal between pakistan and france because JF-17 upgradition is major upgradition in pakistan air forces fleat
so india wouldnt mind spending few extra millions to stop the deal
this is just my perdictions

No all these are mere speculation only. France has an independent foreign policy. I dont think its relations with India will affect that with Pakistan.

At the end of the day its Business so if Pakistan pays for it the deal will be done.Ppl just tend to add India to make the news hot and spicy

 

[sudhir007]

why not india upgrade Mirage with israel. It is much cheaper

Israel is close to swinging an order to upgrade French-origin Mirage 2000 aircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) despite France’s charm offensive in hosting the Indian military on the Champs Elysees. Tel Aviv has offered to upgrade the frontline fighter aircraft, of which the IAF has three squadrons, at rates nearly 40 per cent less than the price quoted by the French.

Israel, whose chief of defence staff returns to Tel Aviv after visiting New Delhi this week for the first time since diplomatic relations were established in 1992, is also favoured to win an order for 18 quick-reaction surface-to-air missiles (QR-SAMs) from the Indian Army that could cost more than Rs 2,000 crore.

The possible loss of the Mirage 2000 upgrade bid will hurt the French the most.In July this year, France had hosted Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and, in a rare honour, contingents of the Indian armed forces led the Bastille Day parade. Last week, French defence minister Herve Morin was in New Delhi courting the Indian defence establishment.

Early next month, President Nicolas Sarkozy could be back in India with wife Carla Bruni whom he has promised to take to Taj Mahal. Sarkozy visited India in January last year minus Carla.

Defence ministry sources said the delegation led by Israeli defence services chief, General Gabi Ashkenazi, made presentations to the top brass, including the chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, on the Mirage 2000 upgrade that Israel Aircraft Industries would carry out in collaboration with other firms.


In back-of-the envelope calculations, the cost of the Israeli bid totals Rs 96 crore per aircraft while the French bid is worth Rs 152 crore. The IAF has at least 51 Mirage 2000s. The upgrade would include superior avionics and electronic warfare systems that would extend the service life of the aircraft by 15 years. Although French companies Dassault Aviation and Thales are the original equipment suppliers, the price quoted, say defence ministry sources, may be put to better use by ordering new aircraft.

The French have already beaten down prices and there is a possibility they will go even lower. They are keen that the deal be done at the time of Sarkozy’s visit, though similar hopes during Singh’s Paris visit in July were dashed. For the Spyder QR-SAM missile systems, the army may sign a contract within a month. The IAF has already contracted the Israelis for the systems.The close-range missile defence systems are meant as a protective shield for the army’s critical immovable assets.

 

[Kinetic]

There is something more on this deal than just upgradation. Look how France canceled the JF-17 avionics deal. $2.2 bn for 51 fighters is just too much. It might be coming with weapons systems as well. Otherwise with little more we can buy all new SU-30MKI which is way more advanced than Mirage-2000. The all new F-18E/F with advanced AESA and sensors costs $60 mn only. Now here with Mirage-200 there is no AESA radar, no long range BVR missile!!!

 

[deckingraj]

There is something more on this deal than just upgradation. Look how France canceled the JF-17 avionics deal. $2.2 bn for 51 fighters is just too much. It might be coming with weapons systems as well. Otherwise with little more we can buy all new SU-30MKI which is way more advanced than Mirage-2000. The all new F-18E/F with advanced AESA and sensors costs $60 mn only. Now here with Mirage-200 there is no AESA radar, no long range BVR missile!!!

I also suspect the bolded part... May be some pakistani friends can suggest why France have put on hold/cancelled Jf17 avionincs deal... However $1.3 billion is not a small amount by any stretch of Imagination to ignore unless and untill something has been promised as far as MMRCA is concerned(though have doubts there as trials are still going on)....

Mig 35 in my eyes have little chance in MMRCA deal - Logic the same that i oppose buying more MKI's instead of this upgrade i.e. "Don't put all egss in one basket"....

F16, F18 too in my eyes have little chance - Logic : US going ahead and giving more F16 birds to PAK did not go very well with GOI....US past record about sanctions and TOT restrictions...

So the way things are shaping out it looks like winner of MMRCA might have been decided or some big defence deal going france way in very near future....

 

[Renegade]

go to hell.i want to say to paf that they find other friends like Germans & Italians for jf-17.
i hope paf will take serious my this suggestion

The Germans themselves have said that the U-214 deal with Pakistan is off.

That leaves the Italians, but i am not too sure if they can euqalise the cutting edge tech offered by the French & the German's. Even if they did i am sure Indian pressure will work there as well, the French are better off than the Italians and they bent to Indian economic clout.

 

[manish123]

The Germans themselves have said that the U-214 deal with Pakistan is off.

That leaves the Italians, but i am not too sure if they can euqalise the cutting edge tech offered by the French & the German's. Even if they did i am sure Indian pressure will work there as well, the French are better off than the Italians and they bent to Indian economic clout.

Seems like India is going for eurofighter now since the germans have assured that all american related equipment will be substituted.Makes sense.we get the ej200 as well and also make britain, france, germany and italy happy.Pure speculation.

 

[Bull]

Thats the cost of keeping Paksitan away from french avionics.

 

[manish123]

Thats the cost of keeping Paksitan away from french avionics.

No they dont want their stuff to be reverse engineered in china.

 

[CONNAN]

upgraded mirage 2000 cockpit

 

[Dark Angel]

This cost will include new weapons as well which will be even deadlier and operated by new radar and avionics .....plus this will concreate the fact that there will be no JF-17 deal so guys its a Win-Win situation for India as we have the bucks ........... now lighten up guys

 

[Kinetic]

I also suspect the bolded part... May be some pakistani friends can suggest why France have put on hold/cancelled Jf17 avionincs deal... However $1.3 billion is not a small amount by any stretch of Imagination to ignore unless and untill something has been promised as far as MMRCA is concerned(though have doubts there as trials are still going on)....

Mig 35 in my eyes have little chance in MMRCA deal - Logic the same that i oppose buying more MKI's instead of this upgrade i.e. "Don't put all egss in one basket"....

F16, F18 too in my eyes have little chance - Logic : US going ahead and giving more F16 birds to PAK did not go very well with GOI....US past record about sanctions and TOT restrictions...

So the way things are shaping out it looks like winner of MMRCA might have been decided or some big defence deal going france way in very near future....

Agreed! But the French definitely not getting the MMRCA deal, they know better than us! After four years of negotiations the Mirage-2K deal was almost canceled but due to PAF's JF-17 avionics it was revived and will be signed very shortly or may be during Sarkozy's visit to India. Than what India can do to make France happy after M-2K deal?

1) More money will go to France for existing Scorpene deal.
2) Second line submarine deal may go to France.
3) France will definitely get P-17A deal.

Others spend money to improve their own defence industry, India spends money to keep away others from selling weapons to Pakistan.

 

[black flame]

go to hell.i want to say to paf that they find other friends like Germans & Italians for jf-17.
i hope paf will take serious my this suggestion

kidooo grow up

 

[KEETARP]

DMLA
I dont think it will be RDY-3, shiv arror is quite reliable .
RDY-3 is not the topline product , its a downgraded product of RDY-2.
And in the Aero-india stall of Thales , poster also showed a variant of DAMOCLES pod as a part of upgrade package.
Currently air-force operates ATLIS pod for precision strike of LGBs.
I think with DAMOCLES capability IAF will have stand-off capability something like SNIPER pods on F16.

I have a question regarding FCS and navigation of RDY series ,
-For low altitude navigation , do Indian mirages have something like LANTRIN pods on block52F16,
-and article dosent mention whether Fly-by-wire will get new system and conversion to a fullly digital one.

Finally someone asked about MICA missile and its price and its worthiness.
Here is the link-
Projet de loi de finances pour 2009 : Défense - Equipement des forces
Link is 1 year old , at that time cheaper version costed about 1.2million Euros and better IR-version was 1.7mill euros

Another link this one from FRANCE national assembly - quotes price near 2million cost for French air force. This may be due to further upgrades.
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/pdf/budget/plf2005/a1867-A06.pdf

IAF has been intrested in better IR version for years and same was rumuored to be used as Vertical launch system for SAM system.
Must read-
VL MICA RECORDS DIRECT HIT IN TEST FIRING

Now my batchmates in IAF say they have seen MICA mounted along with MAGIC on MIRAGE. I doubt them but still would belive them. IAF holds great respect for these missiles , and will pay price for it.

Its range is on lower side , but within 60Km bcoz of better countermeasures and flight characteristics , it gives no chance to fighters in range .
Purely bcoz of Maneuver of Manned-machines cant match its speed and your RWR is useless as it is IR so it dosent give you time to respond.

When you compare it to AIM120C5 version PAF is getting from US , which is cheap and longer range, iMICA presents weak but if mass produced ,Mica can also be cheap.

 

[deckingraj]

Agreed! But the French definitely not getting the MMRCA deal, they know better than us! After four years of negotiations the Mirage-2K deal was almost canceled but due to PAF's JF-17 avionics it was revived and will be signed very shortly or may be during Sarkozy's visit to India. Than what India can do to make France happy after M-2K deal?

1) More money will go to France for existing Scorpene deal.
2) Second line submarine deal may go to France.
3) France will definitely get P-17A deal.

Others spend money to improve their own defence industry, India spends money to keep away others from selling weapons to Pakistan.

If thats the case then i think this is not a very healthy way of operating..Unless and Until we have loads of money to buy costly items and still do not compromise on indegenous operations including R&D(i know we don't)...I also know we were more inclined to go towards Israel for this upgrade because they were almost doing the same at half the price....

On the other hand if this particular deal is going to derail PAF path to modernization by lets say 5 years then i would say not a bad deal....If we go by current might of both the Air Forces we definitely have an upper hand...Another five years things would be very difficult for them....

So the way i woould conclude is - A very bad deal from economics but overall a good deal if the Aim is Keep growing and keep derailing your adversary growth to widen the gap even further...

 

[Haanzo]

GUYS HOLD ON before jumping into conclusions -YES the upgrade deal is COSTLY but dont just say that gripens can be bought at the same price as the gripens may cost nearly as much as the upgrade deal but induction and assimilation into the force structure takes lots more money and most importantly time
HECK the iaf is not buying cars for gods sake so be patient the mirage is not a bad aircraft at all it was the main strike aircraft for the strategic neuclear command for delivering nukes maybe even now it has the same job to do
exept for the engines and the airframe this will be a brand new jet so dont whine for every small thing