News Flash: JFT carries out a successful WS-13 Flight test.

[Donatello]

I do this for a living !

do you want to debate ?

You debate for a living?

Sure...go ahead..

 

[Arsalan]

I do this for a living !

do you want to debate ?

we are all here to discuss and debate...

provided it is a constructive one.

what else do you think members are here to do??

by the way can you clearify what you do for living? i coudnt get the point!

regards!

 

[Donatello]

we are all here to discuss and debate...

provided it is a constructive one.

what else do you think members are here to do??

by the way can you clearify what you do for living? i coudnt get the point!

regards!

I certainly don't earn living by posting on Forums and by debating.

I didn't get what he meant. In any case i am open to any technical discussion here.

 

[hataf]

expected no of JFT domestic + export ????

if these No's are in Triple Figure

i think than pakistan should do something in this regard


but i am from those kind of persons who wants Pakistan to home produce every defense item no mater what, regardless of every thing. . . . .

"WE WILL MAKE ATOMIC BOMB-------EVEN IF, WE HAVE TO EAT THE GRASS"

believe me, i am that type of a guy, none of your argument, any one's argument can convince me other wise . . . . . . . .

 

[Sinnerman108]

I certainly don't earn living by posting on Forums and by debating.

I didn't get what he meant. In any case i am open to any technical discussion here.

does any one make a living posting on forums ?

I am not sure if I am capable of debating here.

BTW, I have already posted detailed information regarding exactly this point in discussion with respect to the industries requires, and the technological and personnel requirements.

My memory serves me right It was my self, Mastan Khan, santro and some others too in that debate; it was in one of the aviation JF-17 threads

 

[Donatello]

expected no of JFT domestic + export ????

if these No's are in Triple Figure

i think than pakistan should do something in this regard


but i am from those kind of persons who wants Pakistan to home produce every defense item no mater what, regardless of every thing. . . . .

"WE WILL MAKE ATOMIC BOMB-------EVEN IF, WE HAVE TO EAT THE GRASS"

believe me, i am that type of a guy, none of your argument, any one's argument can convince me other wise . . . . . . . .

Given the current crisis our country is in, I am sure you want to be as patriotic as possible but at the same time you also don't want a state like North Korea? Right?

 

[Sinnerman108]

I have free time on my hands !

DO you have any idea of the industries you need to set up for Turbine engine manufacture?

And that too like the high performance after burner ones?


You need entire metals/materials research industry which we lack and we can't import alloys as that will totally go against the concept of home made. Then we need a market for them. The problem is that in our countries both India and Pakistan such industries are all government owned that is taxpayer funded.

In USA and Europe they are private like Pratt and Whitney, Rolls-Royce, GE...etc etc.

I mean, just look at the debt we have been carrying because of PIA and Steel Mills. We have a socialistic economy which doesn't allow much for scientific research to happen.

The only high tech labs like KRL, SUPARCO, AWC, PAC, HIT are all not private.

Once we make engines, what will we do with them? After using them up for JF-17s and J-10s maybe, where will the rest go? The economics just doesn't make sense.


This is not USAF which purchases 3000+ f-16s.......or Soviet Union which by forced labor was making thousands of planes per year at its peak.

Now lets go through this one by one.

Sure I know very well about what ever industry is required.

As I said try to understand the difference between DEVELOPMENT and manufacturing.

These are two VERY VERY different beasts.

If we were to DEVELOP a Turbofan Jet Engine then we will need a LOT of money,
we will need a huge industrial complex and know how to support it
we will need trained people
High speed computers
Metallurgists
etc etc etc .....

We are not doing any of that; the engine is already DEVELOPED in China; all I am advocating is to MANUFACTURE it.

This will help us understand the underlying technology.
Train our own people in doing the job.
Get the infrastructure and machinery required to ASSEMBLE the engines.

Now about how things are done in west and China;
Sure it is a good thing that west has private companies which can leverage the highly skilled resources and produce A class stuff.

you MUST also understand the amount of over heads incurred in doing business this way; a 100 USD product eventually ends up around 2500 USD.

So it is a two edged sword; I will not be awfully unhappy with our state owned departments running this job for us.

Now for the example of USAF and USSR;

Please do tell me is JF-17 the last plane that the PAF will ever make ?

Do you feel there is chance after learning to make one plane, PAF may be enticed to make other stuff in future ?

Even if we don't make the full platform, Do you think we can make money by making parts for others ?

If you feel the answer to above questions is YES, then it is time to get to work.

simple math: if we save 10 % / air craft by manufacturing the engine in house;
and considering JF-17 & J-11 will have cost amortized over 15 years at least.
that alone is enough to cover the investment.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I think that engine manufacturing is not out sourced to anyone. The engine being the HEART AND SOUL of a machine is the property of the manufacturer who guards its secrets and integrity more than its first born child.

Once you give an engine to someone to manufacture---you are basically done. Better packup and leave the arena now than when you are bankrupt.
Look at what happened to Mitsubishi motors corp----they sold their engines and transmissions to chrysler----they sold them to hyundai motors corp----guess what is happening now---.

Mitsubishi is on the brink of being out of the U S market---hyundai motors has gained a huge big share in the wortld market----and that only---because----mitsubishi sold them the engines---I don't think they were in knocked down form---.

For 250 aircraft---pak doesnot need an engine manufacturing plant. People looking at export potentials---need to understand that---if they see us leading the charge---they will put other hurdles in our way.

Let others be the partners in our export---let their welbeing be attached to our progress----that is how you prosper and move ahead.

Pakistan has a bad name all over the world---no one will allow us to be completely independant----actually we must not allow ourselves to be independant of others.

As long as we walk with the shadow of others as our partners in this venture---and make everybody happy in splitting the PIE----pak will find out that in the longer run---it is better to have less with consistency rather than having all of it with many a hurdles.

So---my vote----let it be as it is---we need the chinese support---we the russian engine support----we need the italian radar support---we need the french radar support---we need the chinese manufacturing and weapons support---. Together we stand to gain more----by ourselves---we are no match for our enemies.

 

[Donatello]

I have free time on my hands !



Now lets go through this one by one.

Sure I know very well about what ever industry is required.

As I said try to understand the difference between DEVELOPMENT and manufacturing.

These are two VERY VERY different beasts.

If we were to DEVELOP a Turbofan Jet Engine then we will need a LOT of money,
we will need a huge industrial complex and know how to support it
we will need trained people
High speed computers
Metallurgists
etc etc etc .....

We are not doing any of that; the engine is already DEVELOPED in China; all I am advocating is to MANUFACTURE it.

This will help us understand the underlying technology.
Train our own people in doing the job.
Get the infrastructure and machinery required to ASSEMBLE the engines.

Now about how things are done in west and China;
Sure it is a good thing that west has private companies which can leverage the highly skilled resources and produce A class stuff.

you MUST also understand the amount of over heads incurred in doing business this way; a 100 USD product eventually ends up around 2500 USD.

So it is a two edged sword; I will not be awfully unhappy with our state owned departments running this job for us.

Now for the example of USAF and USSR;

Please do tell me is JF-17 the last plane that the PAF will ever make ?

Do you feel there is chance after learning to make one plane, PAF may be enticed to make other stuff in future ?

Even if we don't make the full platform, Do you think we can make money by making parts for others ?

If you feel the answer to above questions is YES, then it is time to get to work.

simple math: if we save 10 % / air craft by manufacturing the engine in house;
and considering JF-17 & J-11 will have cost amortized over 15 years at least.
that alone is enough to cover the investment.

Contrary to your long post,

My argument is not about whether PAF should make it's own parts/projects. They already have done that with JF-17s and other equipment in the past.

The thing is that manufacturing an already developed engine will be just like TOT for the Agosta Submarines that we got for the NAVY.

How useful has that been? I mean we can build a sub, technically assemble it, but we can't design one yet.

For that, we need to outsource, as everything down to the little detail cannot be done by the armed forces themselves.


Manufacturing parts would be like importing their components and then just putting them together. Thats not much of learning. It's just work.

Real help will come if we start at the root level and develop our own stuff. We might fail, but we will learn a lot.

Kinda Plagiarism vs Original ideas.


Ever wonder why so many tech gadgets and innovations are from the western world, where Universities can dismiss you on the first case of plagiarism.....compared to back home where students copy and paste.

My discussion is just a general thought on developing vs assembling something.

We need development + manufacturing the developed product. Not just manufacturing it.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Manufacturing parts would be like importing their components and then just putting them together. Thats not much of learning. It's just work.

Real help will come if we start at the root level and develop our own stuff. We might fail, but we will learn a lot.

Kinda Plagiarism vs Original ideas

See for even assembling a Jet engine a very complex setup is required.
for example just the vibration analyzers and spatial alignment of the engine
is an engineering marvel in itself.

Eventually you must understand it is People in the form of engineers and technicians which an organization will rely for future.

If by just assembling the engine you get experience and a team trained; on top of making money; Voila ! what more can one ask for ?

What Mastan Khan said is true; but overly generalized.
There is a huge difference between an internal combustion engine and a JET engine.

I agree that Chinese are good business thinkers and if they see the other partner leading the charge they may pull out.

They may never agree to give assembling rights in the first place.

But in the name of Pakistan; can you please suggest an easier / shorter way ?

It's either this or we wait 15-20 years for internal RnD to render some thing;

look at the Indians (LCA) and look what they finally had to accept.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Mastan Khan:
So---my vote----let it be as it is---we need the chinese support---we the russian engine support----we need the italian radar support---we need the french radar support---we need the chinese manufacturing and weapons support---. Together we stand to gain more----by ourselves---we are no match for our enemies.

We may not be a match today; but we are in the works and tomorrow InshAllah we will be more than prepared.

 

[cw2005]

Based on my believing of “No war in the near future” as far as USA needs Pakistan and the leaders of both India and China are smart enough not to spoil the golden chance to grow, this is the great time to benefit for Pakistan. My thinking:

1. CoOp in manufacturing of military equipment such as JF-17 and get as much TOT as possible to gain know how and experience. (I even believe even without making much profit is worth to do it.)
2. Do something to the main issues – Internal security and economy.
3. As China is getting costly in certain industries such as Textiles and Garments, try to get the business to Pakistan by offering incentives to Chinese factories so as to create jobs and earn forex. (Just one visit to Guangdong and you would know that textiles companies have orders but no worker). They are moving to Vietnam, Lao etc in order not to loss orders to India.
4. Attract Electronic home appliance and mobile phone factories of China to Pakistan.

 

[Sinnerman108]

These will be my last arguments before I retire from this debate

Case 1:
Chinese began license PRODUCTION of Mig21s decades ago; they eventually ended up exporting it to many countries.

Same is the case with J-11 (Sukhois).

did the Chinese DEVELOP these air craft ? for sure NO !

none the less Chinese learned from these air craft; even if it was assembling kits; at the same time it gave them a chance to develop the factories / laboratories and equipment required to conceive and DEVELOP air craft.

Case 2 (LCA) an example of what NOT to do:
Examine the LCA TEJAS project. and for a moment we can forget about avionics and materials and all that.
One of the reasons LCA is suffering is because the engine is not ready as yet.

Indians had experience in assembling planes; thus LCA
Indians did not have experience in engines; thus KAVERI.

Had the Indians been putting engines together in past; they might have made KAVERI work by now.

Case 3 Pakistan (Thunder) it self:

Now Thunder the airplane it self is a result of joint effort.
Pakistan had a chance to leverage Chinese experience and use their laboratories and equipment.
I can tell you; if we had the same team of Pak + China engineers develop the same product in Pakistan ONLY, we would have gotten to no where.

remember even if you have designed the world's best air craft; give it to car mechanics and it will never be built.
give it to engineers who never developed any thing before; again it will never be built.



DEDUCTIONS:

Assembling stuff is not such a bad idea after all;
It will help you understand the complexities of the manufacturing process
It will help you learn how to run the process for profit
It will help you learn the management for such a project
It will help you train your workers
most of all it will help you establish facilities which will be conducive to growth.
same facilities which will be give birth to newer ideas and designs in future.

If any one has a better plan; please let us know.
Half cooked replies.. general thoughts... lacking substance or argument .... just make me sad, very very sad.

In the name of Pakistan.

 

[Donatello]

These will be my last arguments before I retire from this debate

Case 1:
Chinese began license PRODUCTION of Mig21s decades ago; they eventually ended up exporting it to many countries.

Same is the case with J-11 (Sukhois).

did the Chinese DEVELOP these air craft ? for sure NO !

none the less Chinese learned from these air craft; even if it was assembling kits; at the same time it gave them a chance to develop the factories / laboratories and equipment required to conceive and DEVELOP air craft.

Case 2 (LCA) an example of what NOT to do:
Examine the LCA TEJAS project. and for a moment we can forget about avionics and materials and all that.
One of the reasons LCA is suffering is because the engine is not ready as yet.

Indians had experience in assembling planes; thus LCA
Indians did not have experience in engines; thus KAVERI.

Had the Indians been putting engines together in past; they might have made KAVERI work by now.

Case 3 Pakistan (Thunder) it self:

Now Thunder the airplane it self is a result of joint effort.
Pakistan had a chance to leverage Chinese experience and use their laboratories and equipment.
I can tell you; if we had the same team of Pak + China engineers develop the same product in Pakistan ONLY, we would have gotten to no where.

remember even if you have designed the world's best air craft; give it to car mechanics and it will never be built.
give it to engineers who never developed any thing before; again it will never be built.



DEDUCTIONS:

Assembling stuff is not such a bad idea after all;
It will help you understand the complexities of the manufacturing process
It will help you learn how to run the process for profit
It will help you learn the management for such a project
It will help you train your workers
most of all it will help you establish facilities which will be conducive to growth.
same facilities which will be give birth to newer ideas and designs in future.

If any one has a better plan; please let us know.
Half cooked replies.. general thoughts... lacking substance or argument .... just make me sad, very very sad.

In the name of Pakistan.

You skip the entire mentioning of Avionics in the Indian LCA project.
In their case they couldn't even have the Arjun tank right.


Anyway, you comparing China and Pakistan. Two very different leagues my friend. The way they work, their work ethics and despite communism, look at the number of engineers, PhD s and entrepreneurs they turn out each year...and then compare the ratios to Pakistan.

Without root level efforts we are going no where. And PAF alone cannot help in that regard.

 

[MastanKhan]

We may not be a match today; but we are in the works and tomorrow InshAllah we will be more than prepared.

Hi,

For any millitary endeavours---you have to see the political ramifications and analyze the reaction of the enemies, opponents and competitors.

To reach that point---you have to weave a way around the obstacles.

Jet engine and piston engines are both internal combustion---and in their own manner---both are equally difficult to manufacture.

I donot know of any one engine builder that sends out kits to build a new engine from scratch---either a gas engine or a turbine. Maybe rebuilt kits for older equipment.

Well---pakistani mechanics have been overhauling car and diesel engines for years---tell me how many gas engines pakistan have manufactured.

Indians mechanics have been overhauling diesel engines for decades---guess what---they had the blue prints of the german diesel engine---all the specs and everything thing---they expected it to produce 1000 + HP---guess what---it only gave up 500 HP after years and years of time and money wastage.

You can't design and manufacture these items---unless you have a sound base of engr and manufacturing and billions and billions of free funds with hundreds of thousand engineers from all fairs engr.