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New provinces and provincial autonomy

The argumenet that smaller provinces will mean more efficency is just flawed , here look at afghanistan and see how many provinces its has:

having more provinces did not make afghanistan a better governned country its not going to help us. This argument is very stupid.

Conveniently choosing to ignore all arguments in favor of such a proposal is the thing that is fundamentally flawed.

Many members have put forward their arguments. Prove them false, point by point or otherwise stop giving examples which are out of context, suffer from a milieu of political, historical and social factors and which have nothing to do with the topic in focus.
 
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Conveniently choosing to ignore all arguments in favor of such a proposal is the thing that is fundamentally flawed.

Many members have put forward their arguments. Prove them false, point by point or otherwise stop giving examples which are out of context, suffer from a milieu of political, historical and social factors and which have nothing to do with the topic in focus.

The topic at hand is about having more provinces in Pakistan , you have an example right across the border about where such a scheme has failed. Why would we want to repeat a failed experiement ?

Arguments that many member have put are mostly Panjab-centric which are aimed at dividing the polical base of rival politcal parties and nothing else.
 
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The topic at hand is about having more provinces in Pakistan , you have an example right across the border about where such a scheme has failed. Why would we want to repeat a failed experiement ?

Arguments that many member have put are mostly Panjab-centric which are aimed at dividing the polical base of rival politcal parties and nothing else.

Afghanistan has been a war torn country for nearly two and a half decades. Afghanistan has had a nearly similar provincial demarcation since the early sixties, as far as I know. Whatever they aimed to achieve, they could not do so in any way keeping in mind the effects of war across the country. And I'm unsure when they increased the number of provinces.

India on the other hand, has successfully shown how creation of new provinces can be really good for administrative and financial efficiency. You chose to ignore a working example on the eastern border while choosing a country on the western border that has been devastated by war after war. Local examples include Srilanka which has 9 provinces.

Geographically speaking, Turkey with an area slightly smaller than ours but less than half of our population has 81 provinces. Turkey is followed by Chile with 54 provinces.

Egypt is a bit larger in size than us (approx 1.26 times) has 29 governorates. It is followed in size by Tanzania which has 26 provinces. Nigeria has 36 states.

If you're going to comment on the economic performance of these countries, then it'll be lame and pointless for we are not discussing which country has achieved a higher standard of living for its citizens. Administrative, Legislative, Political and Financial efficiency demand that a country of 180 million cannot be ruled by demarcating it into 5 provinces, where the theird tier of government i.e. local bodies are not in existence as well. Other countries do not put 90 million people under just one government because they seek to maximize representation and create a focused government rather than a dispersed one which cannot handle its resources (comparing Punjab with population of Indian states and/or Chinese provinces is lame as well as population densities are highly different)

Colonials did not need such small demarcations because they yielded power through their forces and they weren't necessarily focusing on providing you a better standard of living or giving you social welfare.

I cannot understand how you wish to address the needs of the people of Rahim Yar Khan and Taxila at the same time with just one level of legislative and financial governance in a country where bureaucrats have barricaded all forms of access to government resources, programmes and transparency.

Come out of your view that if the word Pakistan was based on the alphabets of the existing provinces, it will have to remain so. Pakistan is more than a word, it is a nation of 180 million people who seek to serve their motherland. Demarcations will only bring benefits, they cannot break or disintigerate the federation in any way. We'll have a focused system of governance and it is the feudal and totalitarian mentality which seeks to dominate everything that has been blocking the creation of new provinces for 63 years. The pandora's box is open now, protests in Hazara are acting like a catalyst and we should aim to maximize profit from this situation by establishing new provinces so that people will have their governments, which are accessible to them and which have to focus on projects on a limited scale compared to their gargantuan number of projects that existing provinces have to handle courtesy their enormous size.
 
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Firstly, Afghanistan has been a war torn country for nearly two and a half decades. Afghanistan has had a nearly similar provincial demarcation since the early sixties, as far as I know. Whatever they aimed to achieve, they could not do so in any way keeping in mind the effects of war across the country.

India on the other hand, has successfully shown how creation of new provinces can be really good for administrative and financial efficiency. You chose to ignore a working example on the eastern border while choosing a country on the western border that has been devastated by war after war.

umm well the provinces in india seem to be quite big , look at this map.

India_Red_Corridor_map.png


Look at the size of Rajhistan, Utter Pardesh , Mahrastra they all look quite big.

The other intesting part in this map are the red portions.

These the are the 'red states' that are up in arms against the indian government in a state rebellion and thats why we should not try to follow the indian model , the state of rebellion in the red states is due to the growing disparity between the rich and the poor so whatever model they followed , be it division of indian Panjab in Himachal Pardesh , Haryana and the Panjabi Suba to the india shining slogans , it hasnt worked out well for the 350 million of poorest of the poor that live in india

Coming back to your argument that in india they made smaller provinces to get some finacial success then this seems to be inaccurate as the province size of Rajhistan, Utter Pardesh , Mahrastra seems to be quite big.
 
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As Spakrlingview said before you (Pak Defender) should first present counter arguments of the posts which we posted in last 4 pages. Than we will move one.
 
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Coming back to your argument that in india they made smaller provinces to get some finacial success then this seems to be inaccurate as the province size of Rajhistan, Utter Pardesh , Mahrastra seems to be quite big.

Rajasthan is sparsely populated (density compared with other Indian states) and Uttar Pradesh is the most populous state (Uttarakhand/Uttaranachal was carved out of Uttar Pradesh in 2000) followed by Mahrashtra (which was formed after Bombay was split into Gujarat and Mahrashtra). Hence, India has been dividing further to maximize government efficiency.

And as usual you are citing exlcusions and outliers. Going out of context by pointing out a naxal insurgency across India which is primarily based on resource exploitation and the inevitable struggle of classes is the highest form of off-topic arguments that can be made.

I'm in no mood to further argue with you for you are pointlessly arguing without debating the merits of anybody's arguments.
 
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Rajasthan is sparsely populated (density compared with other Indian states) and Uttar Pradesh is the most populous state (Uttarakhand/Uttaranachal was carved out of Uttar Pradesh in 2000) followed by Mahrashtra (which was formed after Bombay was split into Gujarat and Mahrashtra). Hence, India has been dividing further to maximize government efficiency.

well there r demands for forming many states in india too. dividing Uttar Pradesh into 3 states
Aspirant_states_of_india_3.PNG


Map of India showing most of the aspirant states: 1)Ang Prade (brown) 2)Ladakh (pink), 3)Harit Pradesh (Dark Green), 4)Maru Pradesh (Dark Grey), 5)Bundelkhand (Dark blue), 6)Bagelkhand (water blue), 7)Purvanchal (Purple), 8)Mithila (Brown), 9)Gorkhaland (red), 10)Bodoland (light green), 11)Saurashtra (light grey), 12)Vidarbha (Orange), 13)Telangana (Yellow), 14)Rayalaseema (Dark Pink), 15)Tulu Nadu (Black), 16)Kodagu (sky blue) and 17)Koshal/Koshalanchal (Maroon).
 
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Rajasthan is sparsely populated (density compared with other Indian states) and Uttar Pradesh is the most populous state (Uttarakhand/Uttaranachal was carved out of Uttar Pradesh in 2000) followed by Mahrashtra (which was formed after Bombay was split into Gujarat and Mahrashtra). Hence, India has been dividing further to maximize government efficiency.

And as usual you are citing exlcusions and outliers. Going out of context by pointing out a naxal insurgency across India which is primarily based on resource exploitation and the inevitable struggle of classes is the highest form of off-topic arguments that can be made.

I'm in no mood to further argue with you for you are pointlessly arguing without debating the merits of anybody's arguments.

Im in no mood to debate this topic also since as of now the vast majority of Pakistani are not demanding more provinces to be made.

As of now the demand for hazara province is being made more out of reaction for ignoring their say in the matter of renaming NWFP.

If and when there are demands then there will have to refferendums in the respective provinces and it'll be for the people of the respective provinces to decide whether they want the current adminstrative boundries to stay or not.
 
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Im in no mood to debate this topic also since as of now the vast majority of Pakistani are not demanding more provinces to be made.

As of now the demand for hazara province is being made more out of reaction for ignoring their say in the matter of renaming NWFP.

If and when there are demands then there will have to refferendums in the respective provinces and it'll be for the people of the respective provinces to decide whether they want the current adminstrative boundries to stay or not.

One unit is better solution for Pakistan .In that case kalabag dam can be built essential for agriculture and industrial progress.

More provinces will generate more disputes of division of natural resources.
 
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My Problem with Hazara Division as a province is that the area is again a predominantly Pushtoon Majority Area. There are five districts in the division and three of them has a 90% pushtoon majority. Even in the remaining two the Pushtoon ethnicity is more than fifty percent. Now the point is whether the BIG BROTHER a.k.a Punjab will be willing to give Gilgit-Baltistan (11), Pukhtoonkhawa (11), Hazara (11) and Fata (11) seats to in senate to the Pushtoons, if done, this will undermine the dominance of Punjab in the national assembly.
 
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Thats exactly the opposite of what will happen, provinces wont be divided on the basis of administrative agenda, rather the politicians will strive to divide them on ethnic basis. Look at the crisis in hazaara or khyber pakhtunkwa, did you see a renaming based on ethnicity or was it for the ease of administraion ?

Bottom line is people feel stronly about their ethnicity and ethnicity not administration will be the basis of any such division. The formula that works is to divide the province into "divisions", the model that was in-place till 2000. That works the best to ease administration, cutting up provinces on ethnic line will only give rise to more internal conflict, they will fight over meager resources and the centre will get even weaker.

So whats wrong with dividing provinces on the basis of ethnicity. Isn't the present state divided on the basis of ethnicity. Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan all represent one ethnicity or other.:disagree: The basic aim of smaller provinces is to break the BIG BROTHER concept of Punjab... for PML N or Q all they need is to be a majority in Punjab and they rule the country. :pakistan: THE HARD THING ABOUT DEMOCRACY IS TO SAFEGAURD THE RIGHTS OF THE MINORITY.
 
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Hey senior members!
Don't you think that it is not a good idea to name the provinces based on ethnicity/tribes?

I think we should give a general/meaningful name.
Like Ontario does not signify any tribe. It is a general name...
 
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One unit is better solution for Pakistan .In that case kalabag dam can be built essential for agriculture and industrial progress.

More provinces will generate more disputes of division of natural resources.

As if we haven't suffered through the disintegration of the state after we implemented One Unit to deny enhanced right to a deserving populace.

Recommendations for one unit speak volumes about the archaic, myopic, totalitarian and retrogressive thinking that has led to the failure of the system of governance we have allowed ourselves to fall into.

We have established over the previous few pages, through constructive argument, debate, dissent and counter argument that creation of more provinces is at the heart of a democratic culture and is essential to establishing a more efficient, transparent, financially autonomous and administratively manageable system of governance.

If you have nothing more to do than write one liners which cannot be supported by any logical claim and/or evidence, then such suggestion cannot come into the realm of a constructive debate, rather they derail threads.

PS:- If you're going to take on the mention of this being at the heart of a democratic culture, and mention the ever ready argument of Sharia-Khilafa, then as I said earlier, that will amount to derailing the thread, moving off topic and not contributing anything positive.
 
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As if we haven't suffered through the disintegration of the state after we implemented One Unit to deny enhanced right to a deserving populace.

Recommendations for one unit speak volumes about the archaic, myopic, totalitarian and retrogressive thinking that has led to the failure of the system of governance we have allowed ourselves to fall into.

We have established over the previous few pages, through constructive argument, debate, dissent and counter argument that creation of more provinces is at the heart of a democratic culture and is essential to establishing a more efficient, transparent, financially autonomous and administratively manageable system of governance.

If you have nothing more to do than write one liners which cannot be supported by any logical claim and/or evidence, then such suggestion cannot come into the realm of a constructive debate, rather they derail threads.

PS:- If you're going to take on the mention of this being at the heart of a democratic culture, and mention the ever ready argument of Sharia-Khilafa, then as I said earlier, that will amount to derailing the thread, moving off topic and not contributing anything positive.

I dont want to derail the thread just wanted to remind you drawbacks of provinces made during Yahya Khan era.

The graph of progress is continusely going down in last 40 years , we are in great shortage of power and water .

Development of country is more important then any other issue , further integration of provinces could not be beneficial for Pakistan , , the major issues of Pakistan is corrupt leadership and shortage of water and power , both Sindh and NWFP are against Dams(ie Kalabag Dam) , then how we can resolve the problem of shortage of water and power, In 2020 Pakistan will be worst then Etopia if more Dam were not built,it is mentioned in World Bank Reports.

Why our nation and leadership is not using common sense.At least we should learn from India building large dams on Chanab and Neelum Rivers and we are badly involved in internal dirty politics of renaming of provinces and their further divsion .
 
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