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New OIC secretary-general urged to help resolve Kashmir issue

Why is that so? Would it not make a great living spot?:D Can tourists visit?

So how many live in the Pakistani controlled areas and what percentage of it is fertile? 10% 50%?

Some more pics.
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Azad+Kashmir+Neelum+Valley+Janwai+pics+%252837%2529.JPG


Neelum-Valley-Azad-Kashmir.jpg


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There is one thread related to pictures from Azad Kashmir - for more pics you can visit that thread.
 
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It isn't about me liking links or not. It just is the best way to respond to random tantrum at its best. Dropping at sixes and sevens will always have a negative impact. The OEC " link " which shows our exports doesn't function as a solid evidence. All articles I attached quoted the Saudi MoF statistics, which reports its imports and exports per quarter of Hijri calendar which is usually longer than the Gregorian calendar.
Now let's get into the contradictions in your posts in this thread:
You claim that %99 of our exports come from oil, which contradicts the OEC " link " you posted as well as mines.
Here is your original post
New OIC secretary-general urged to help resolve Kashmir issue | Page 2

If links are solid evidence are based on your own selective judgment, why even ask for some?

Infact your articles, or evidence are null in this debate because of your own admissions.

You ask me to prove my claim about 99%, none of your articles mentions any percentages, just figures about exports and growths, I hope you do see the difference.

Coming back to the OEC link, it breaks down all export products into percentages, that is why it is more relevant than your irrelevant articles. Its pretty much open for the public to see where the 99% claim came from and its veracity- A Non-oil product doesnt even figure till the .17% this Saudi export chart accommodates.

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Also, that formal Saudi diplomat is no longer a diplomat - just in case you didn't notice - we kicked him out due to the stupid remarks he makes from time to time.

Good for Saudi.

It doesn't have to be all the time. Not all other products KSA export are Petroleum-related products. Just as much as oil isn't the only natural resource KSA has. Not to mention the fact that KSA economic growth isn't dedicated by oil prices unlike the vast majority of oil producing countries.

Ok....I never said Saudi doesnt export non-oil or anything about Saudi growths.

The Ummah Muslim nonsense, which also contrasts your initial post that religion has never been an element in this dispute.

Pretty much every neutral observer will see the plain hypocrisy the Ummah represents, again, being touchy on the internet doesnt help your argument.
 
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If links are solid evidence are based on your own selective judgment, why even ask for some?

Infact your articles, or evidence are null in this debate because of your own admissions.

Nothing of a selectivity on this. Everything mentioned did directly came from the State itself.

You ask me to prove my claim about 99%, none of your articles mentions any percentages, just figures about exports and growths, I hope you do see the difference.

It won't hurt to admit, you're wrong :) ..

Saudi nonoil exports up 14.5% to SR50.69bn in Q3 | Arab News — Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.
Saudi nonoil exports up 4% to SR17.5bn | Arab News — Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.
Saudi non-oil exports rise 31 percent-paper| Reuters

And even if we suppose your %99 claim is true, even OEC doesn't indicate such mythical claim.

Good for Saudi.

I hope it won't take a nation of you to figure out he's been out.

Ok....I never said Saudi doesnt export non-oil or anything about Saudi growths.

Your %99 sums it up. Any primitive creature won't find it hard to figure it out.

Pretty much every neutral observer will see the plain hypocrisy the Ummah represents, again, being touchy on the internet doesnt help your argument.

So now you're making another round of generalization, after Saudis, now all Muslims are hypocrites? Interesting.

As for being " touchy " just because you don't wish to admit you were wrong, it doesn't mean that I was touchy. I'm just responding to making such serious claim, otherwise, I would have not give the cold shoulder to the rest of posters here.

Now with all debate-aim being accomplished in this argument, I see no need to go further.

Good luck, and I hope you will learn from your mistakes.

India is one of our main economic partners, important country and that's that.



If links are solid evidence are based on your own selective judgment, why even ask for some?

Infact your articles, or evidence are null in this debate because of your own admissions.

You ask me to prove my claim about 99%, none of your articles mentions any percentages, just figures about exports and growths, I hope you do see the difference.

Coming back to the OEC link, it breaks down all export products into percentages, that is why it is more relevant than your irrelevant articles. Its pretty much open for the public to see where the 99% claim came from and its veracity- A Non-oil product doesnt even figure till the .17% this Saudi export chart accommodates.

View attachment 16387




Good for Saudi.



Ok....I never said Saudi doesnt export non-oil or anything about Saudi growths.



Pretty much every neutral observer will see the plain hypocrisy the Ummah represents, again, being touchy on the internet doesnt help your argument.
 
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It won't hurt to admit, you're wrong ..

Making grandiose statement does not prove your facts.

Nothing of a selectivity on this. Everything mentioned did directly came from the State itself.


State vs. non-state is not the contention here, now you are deliberately being daft to wiggle out.

None of my statements is wrong, now you are just going the chinese way of throwing unrelated links to appear correct.

None of your random links talks about oil vs. non-oil exports, just random news about exports increasing birds flying kinda stuff. You think just throwing out random links proves your point, it doesnt work that way.


Your %99 sums it up. Any primitive creature won't find it hard to figure it out.

So you do understand we are talkking about oil vs non-oil exports. Good. Now go back to your links and show me a statement that mentions the oil exports in comparison.

I bring data- you bring random links and grandiose statements, doesnt take too hard to figure out whos wrong; and apparently knows it himself too.
 
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That's a very insightful analysis.

Salute buddy, I'm looking into it in details.

Dude,

From Neutral perspective, Things should remain as they are.

When India was partitioned in 1947, ground situation was complicated. In 1947, India consisted of British India and 562 Independent Kingdoms who were protectorate ( vassal ) of Britishers.According to Independence of India Act, Pakistan was to be created from British provinces while Princely states were given three options; to join India or Pakistan or Remain Free. Of the British Provinces, only NWFP was Muslim Majority.In order to create viable Pakistan, three states of British India were partitioned; Punjab into Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab, Bengal into Bengal and East Pakistan and Separating Sindh from Bombay presidency.The decision to partition was precipitated by Direct action day which proved inevitability of Partition.

While the plan was to smoothly divide the aforementioned provinces, the plan did not go smoothly as there was not enough time for a proper division.In the elections that were held in 1945 under separate electorate system, Muslim league had won 92% of Muslim votes while Congress had won Majority of Non-Muslim votes; the only non muslim province which Congress lost was Punjab where Unionist party, a reactionary party of landlords and communal elements won ( In those days, congress pretty much covered every aspect of Indian polity compared to exclusive leftist it is today ). On top of that congress won in NWFP ( current talibani heartland ) also.When Pakistan was to be created,a separate vote of Muslim and non-muslim legislators was taken. In British provinces, separation of Sindh went smoothly as it was geographically non-contiguous area of Bombay presidency. In Bengal, Muslim legislators voted for whole of Bengal joining Pakistan since in a demographically based division, the Industrial heartland along with largest port and coal bearing areas would have gone to India but Non muslim voted in Favor of division.In Punjab situation was more critical. This was the most communally charged province with pretty much nobody wanting to live with person of another religion. The animosity had a historical root. This was the province in which Muslims were largest demographic group with Hindus and Muslims constituting the rest. The relations between Sikhs and Muslims had been extremely bad,historically. The root of this lies in the persecution and murder of Sikh religious leaders by Aurangzeb which sparked a war between Sikhs and Mughals in which Sikhs eventually emerged victorious (before being defeated by Britishers in 1849 ). The root of the problems between Sikhs and Muslims had theological root . Hindu faction of Punjab was also more radical than Hindus elsewhere. During 19th century when reforms movement were going on in Hinduism, Punjab was dominated by Arya Samajist, a movement which was intent on reverting Muslims of India to Hinduism and little is to be said about Punjabi Muslims,even today they are as delusional as those of 47, still trying to trace their mythological roots to Arabia ( most of syeds and seikhs in India + Pakistan are converts from upper caste Hindus).So while partition of Punjab was Unanimous, the accompanying violence was so great that there are practically no Muslims in Indian Punjab and no Hindus in Pakistan.In NWFP, there was a fresh referendum which Pakistan won by a margin of 0.57%.

In princely state there was a much greater potential for epic clusterfuck. All of the princely states while being nominally Independent were dominion of Britishers and Britishers were responsible for foreign policy and Defense. These states were free to do anything they want but there were practically no chances of Independence. They had practically no army to speak off and more importantly had no mandate to rule ( even monarchs require a tacit mandate from population ) as their survival was dependent on Britishers. INC was active in propaganda and political mobilization of population residing in these Princely states with exception of Hyderabad where Nizam actively suppressed congress and political vacuum was filled by Communists as they were militant in their approach thus being more suitable for armed conflict.All in all faced with a population that was adamant on joining either India or Pakistan and faced with might of Indian Army ( Both Indian and Pakistani faction ) which was most potent fighting force in Asia after WWII ( In India compared to Africa, both Bureaucracy and Army had Indians at all levels of leadership including field marshal ) they had no practical choice but to join either India or Pakistan. It was expected that all Princely states would join India or Pakistan ( or would be eventually coerced to ).

But there were some unexpected ( for realists, totally expected ) turn of Events.

1. Kalat( current baluchistan, 23%), while being Muslim majority and surrounded by Pakistan on all sided, refused to sign instrument of accesion and tried to declare Independence.

2. Junagarh, while being 96% hindu and surrounding on all sides by India and ruled by a Muslim King, acceded to Pakistan.

3. Nizam of Hyderabad, which was a overwhelmingly Hindu majority state and surrounded by India on all sides tried to declare Independence.

4. Kashmir, which was contiguous with both India and Pakistan had a muslim majority of 67% was ruled by a Hindu King and tried to declare Independence.


These were resolved in following manner

1. Kalat was militarily occupied by Pakistani Army in 1955.

2. The rulers of Mangrol and babariawad which were under the suzerainty of Junagadh declared independence from Junagardh and decided to accede to India, In response Junagarh invaded and occupied it's two vassals. India in response put a fuel embargo on Junagarh and send Army to occupy those two states which had succeeded to India. With no fuel and Administration facing collapse, /nawab of Junagarh ran away to Pakistan and his dewan signed Instrument of accession.

3. Nizam and Raja of J&K tried to remain independent. The situation was a mirror image of each other. Initially India wanted to come to an understanding with Pakistan and signed an standstill agreement with Nizam of hyderabad, Pakistan wanted to have Hyderabad on Legal grounds and J&K on demographic grounds. Nizam meanwhile tried to buy Goa from Portugese and formed razakar shock troops to forcibly convert hindus to Islam which lead to an armed insurgency with Razakars and Communist pitted on opposite sides. India intervened in 1948 performing operation polo under the pretext of preventing spread of communist violence to India and forced abdication of Nizam.

4. In J&K, King tried to retain his independence.In order to occupy J&K, Pakistan attacked in guise of tribal invasion.Of the four separate regions of J&K, Gilgit-Baltistan being 100% muslim fell immediately to Pakistani invaders while king's forces were routed in Kashmir, Jammu and ladakh being Hindu and Buddhist majority area held steady. King under the threat of his capital being overrun signed instrument of accession to India.India after that airlifted troops to Srinagar ( they were waiting in Delhi for such eventuality ). Indian troops recovered ground lost by King's Army and ceasefire line which is called LoC was agreed upon after India took the issue to UN.


That's enough of history now some geographical realities of J&K.

J&K consist of four geographically separate regions Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan. Of these regions Jammu is southernmost and is a Hindu majority ( 70%) region with substantial muslim population in only two districts.Kashmir is a valley between pir-panjal range and Himalayan crystalline sequence and is muslim majority region( currently 95%). Ladakh which is a green schist intermontane plateau between Himalayas and Karakorum range is Buddhist majority and gilgit baltistan between karakoram and Hindukush is muslim majority (100%).


The situation on the ground is such that

1. The idea of Independent Kashmir was never there on table practically. While J&K may be Muslim majority in demography, that muslim majority is concentrated in a narrow valley of Kashmir (15000 sq KM) while Ladakh which has largest areal spread and Jammu which has second largest are not Muslim majority. An Independent Kashmir was never a viable option as neither could a fundamentalist Islamic state morally claim Non-Muslim land nor could it take it by force.

2. The idea of pelbiscite has a pre-condition that Pakistani troops withdraw from J&K ceding control to Indian Army. Only after that, a pelbiscite was to be conducted.Since the fact that Pakistani army has not evacuated and the demographics has changed due to influx of Punjabis in Azad Kashmir as admitted by Pakistani foreign minister and expulsion of Hindus from Kashmir valley, demographic realities have changed.


3. The Geographical realities have also changed due to occupation of Askai chin by china ang gifting of shasgam valley by Pakistan to China.


4. Legally, the whole state of J&K should have acceded to India as was mentioned in terms of instrument of accession.There is no legal ground in claims of J&K by any other party.

5. The Muslims in Kashmir are also not unanimous in their desire to join Pakistan. Shia's in
Kashmir are completely opposed to Idea of joining a sunni state while gujjar muslims who practice transhumance also do not want to join Pakistan. Support of Pakistan is limited to old urban centers.

6. The most relevant argument in favour of status quo would be the amount of time that has passed since 1947. India was open to change in borders until 1959.

7. The J&K insurgency which started with bomb blast in front of Telegraph office in Srinagar was entirely driven by foreign militants.ISI channeled Jihadis returning from Afghanistan into Kashmir. There was never a Pro-pakistani wave in Kashmir barring in urban pockets like Old city in Srinagar. There are two anecdotal evidence to it. In 1965 when Pakistan invaded Kashmir under operation Gibraltar which envisioned infiltration of pakistani army in Kashmir under guise of mujahedeen failed because Kashmiris ratted out infiltrating Pakistanis themselves. Another one is near complete cession of violence since fencing of LoC.

The ideal situation in 1947 would have been a four way division of J&K with India keeping Jammu and Ladakh and Pakistan getting Valley and Gilgit. But since that hasn't occurred, status-quo is best solution.
 
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That's a very insightful analysis.

Salute buddy, I'm looking into in details.

All of the facts that i have stated are from open sources and have been accepted by Pakistan also. The only extra information i have provided is related to background and while Pakistanis are trying to downplay them, no one has posted a rebuttal of anything except that of annexation of Kalat.

The fact of violence perpetrated by Raja of Kashmir on muslims and help provided to him by King of Patiala as posted by desert fighter is true, but this is the fact that i have mentioned in second paragraph, even though not in detail. In area lying above Delhi, which consist of Punjab and Kashmir, there was acute communal violence which resulted in complete cleansing of Punjab on both sides.

In J&K, the effect of violence was much less than that of Punjab. Anyone could say anything while quoting anecdotal evidence but the fact that %population composition in 1951 census was same as % population composition of 1901 census is an factual evidence to that.

Someone has mentioned that India has 700000 troops in Kashmir which is complete bullshit. Total strength of Indian Army is 1.2 million. 700000 troops in Kashmir would mean that we are leaving our Chinese border and Pakistani border undefended.


@American Pakistani I have gathered facts regarding Kalat from your country's publication. If you have a issue, take it up with tribune.

Recalling Baloch history – The Express Tribune


he recent deplorable killing of Professor Saba Dashtiari is yet another episode in Baloch history rooted in the creation and consolidation of Pakistan. Much of the current discussion of today, and of the last six decades, fails to take into cognisance the history behind the Baloch national struggle.

The Baloch are a very peculiar social organism with their secularity and their strong tribal networks and leadership. These factors meant that in the 1940s the Islamic rhetoric of the Muslim League failed to make an impact on the Baloch. The only strong political party in the area was the Kalat State National Party (KSNP) which was nationalist and secular in its outlook and aligned with the Congress. The KSNP took its cue from the Khan of Kalat, Ahmed Yar Khan, who, with some historical justification, claimed that Kalat was never a part of India. The British never accepted this claim but Jinnah unequivocally accepted it and signed an agreement to the effect on August 11, 1947. Satisfied by this agreement, the Khan established two houses of parliament in October 1947 to ascertain the will of the people concerning the future of the state. While not ‘democratic’ in the modern sense, the Darul Awam (House of Commons) and Darul Umara (House of Lords) were broadly representative of public opinion in the state.

The debates in these houses were a clear indication of the aspirations of the Baloch and Brahui people. Ghaus Bakhsh Bizenjo, the leader in the Darul Awam, clearly stated: “We have a distinct civilisation… We are Muslims but it is not necessary that by virtue of being Muslims we should lose our freedom and merge with others. If the mere fact that we are Muslims requires us to join Pakistan, then Afghanistan and Iran should also amalgamate with Pakistan”. We are ready to have friendship with that country on the basis of sovereign equality but by no means [are we] ready to merge with Pakistan…” The Baloch knew that under accession their separate identity and unique heritage was being threatened; they only wanted alignment with Pakistan, not accession.

Unfortunately, Pakistan rejected the legitimate concerns of the Baloch. Pakistan never treated Kalat as a non-Indian state and insisted on unconditional accession. To attain this objective, the Pakistani government used several ploys, including the buying off of Kalat state feudatories (Kharan and Las Bela) through lavish privy purses, and the elevation of the Gichki sardar of Mekran — a Kalat district sardar — to princely status. The end result of these machinations, including a threat of military action, was that the Khan acceded to Pakistan in March 27, 1948.

As expected, public reaction against the accession was strong and the brother of the Khan, Abdul Karim, repudiated the accession and led the first of many insurgencies against Pakistan. The rest of Baloch history is a litany of broken promises, threats and repression by the government. In July 1948, Abdul Karim was induced to return on an assurance of amnesty, but the promise was immediately broken. The later story of Nauroz Khan is now a legend in Balochistan. Since then — in 1958, 1977 and now — the Baloch have articulated their grievances through an armed revolt, since the government refuses to listen to their concerns.

It is high time that successive governments stop treating the Baloch insurgency as a law and order problem and assess it in its historical context. The government needs to come to the negotiating table with respect for the distinctiveness and autonomy of the Baloch, a clear remorse for the repression of yester years, and bring to an end the divide and rule game in the province. The solution to the Baloch issue will not be easy, but it needs to be tackled now or else even going back to the drawing board might not convince the Baloch to stay in Pakistan.

Published in The Express Tribune, June 15th, 2011.
 
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@American Pakistani I have gathered facts regarding Kalat from your country's publication. If you have a issue, take it up with tribune.

Recalling Baloch history – The Express Tribune

The fact is that these journalists don't have proper knowledge themselves...they just write what they can sell internationally & make bucks quickly. I post a source from Balochistan province itself plus i post a video of Grandson of the Prince of Kalat who exposed everything on how Kalat joined Pakistan(notice how the anchor himself was surprised to hear that). I give you another example on credibility of Pakistani journalists - A senior Pakistani journalist, Hamid Mir, himself didn't knew until recently that Balochistan was not a single land but different states & out of those states LasBela, Makran, Kharan & Northern Balochistan had joined Pakistan much before Kalat. Gawadar was purchased from govt of Oman in 50's.

But as i said that this thread is not about Balochistan or Assam or Khalistan, etc etc. So please drop it down.
 
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