New Chinese stealth fighter heightens dilemma for Indian Navy

[rcrmj]

sorry i also didn't specify that between copyand steal there is a part of 'trying to build and fail'just like the example that your primitive country cant even make a decent aircraft engine, so your AF has to suck up to Russia everytime because of your crappy engines. ..........



sorry i also didn't specify that between copyand steal there is a part of 'trying to build and fail'just like the example that your primitive country cant even make a decent aircraft engine, so your AF has to suck up to Russia everytime because of your crappy engines. ..........

surprising this indian copying my sentence quite well, you should join DRDO to save that incompetent joke orgnization from doing too many failed copies

 

[kurup]

surprising this indian copying my sentence quite well, you should join DRDO to save that incompetent joke orgnization from doing too many failed copies

It is more surprise that you have enough brain to comprehend what I wrote .

Still you shouldn't join chinese defence industry , that incompetent joke orgnization will become a even bigger joke......

 

[1ndy]

No India , no slum
No India , no starvation
No India , no delay
No India, happier china Pakistan BD and Siri lankar.

No India , no backstabber

no India no Pakistan
no India no Bangladesh
no India no SriLanka
no India no Zero
no Zero no guess what? Nothing.
You would have been eating gun power and exploding so, no china either

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

you mean the indians style``delay, wait for foreign parts, delay and more foreign parts work?

Like WS engine, one didnt work then said we are working on WS B and if B didnt work then we are making ver C and will use ver C ........ your WS engine didnt able to fly JF-17 .... kiddo.. you engine failed ,and you forced to use russian engine for your JF-17 and you people calling from last 4 yours your WS engine for JF-17 is made and made and made and now A is made we will use B and when B is made , will make C and use C ver in JF-17...lol

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

surprising this indian copying my sentence quite well, you should join DRDO to save that incompetent joke orgnization from doing too many failed copies

It better to fail in exam then pass by 40% marks which also copying from other answer sheets. your Chinese proud of other country plane design and calling themselves ours SU30, F35 , MIG 21 are few example.

you passing criteria is 40% out passing criteria is 90%

 

[Merilion]

Like WS engine, one didnt work then said we are working on WS B and if B didnt work then we are making ver C and will use ver C ........

apparently you were confused and messed up with your lca mk1 mk2 mk3...

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

apparently you were confused and messed up with your lca mk1 mk2 mk3...

WS-13 engine ver A , ver B and Ver C i am confused is , no matter, which WS 13 engine you are using JF-17?? a failed engine ? or engine haven't made yet from last 4 years and JF-17 using WS-13 engine from last 4 years but only on net?

 

[ironman1]

any SU-35 delivery to china will take long enough for them to get to their expected date of j-20 activation , what that means is that chinese are willing to be paying more for a 4++ gen fighter and they consider it above their existing and future aircrafts .

again a hallmark for crappy stolen chinese tech.

 

[arp2041]

It's pretty interesting to note that on one side China is developing not 1 but 2 fifth gen. stealth fighters scheduled to be inducted by 2020 & on the other side there is the news that China is in negotiations with Russia for a 4.5 gen sukhoi 35 scheduled to be inducted around the same time?? I mean how does it make sense?? The only thing that comes to my mind (pls prove me wrong if u can) is that J-20 as well as J-31 are not that much capable an ac than it should be & PLAAF is going for more trustworthy ac like a sukhoi 35 from Russia.

P.S. @sancho, @Abingdonboy (sorry for mentioning ur names but i wanted ur reply on this one )

 

[帅的一匹]

Like WS engine, one didnt work then said we are working on WS B and if B didnt work then we are making ver C and will use ver C ........ your WS engine didnt able to fly JF-17 .... kiddo.. you engine failed ,and you forced to use russian engine for your JF-17 and you people calling from last 4 yours your WS engine for JF-17 is made and made and made and now A is made we will use B and when B is made , will make C and use C ver in JF-17...lol

Are you nuts? I said many time before that WS-10A is too big for JF17, the fit one is WS-13 with 10 tons thrust.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Are you nuts? I said many time before that WS-10A is too big for JF17, the fit one is WS-13 with 10 tons thrust.

Where is the Engine WS-13? is started flying the plane JF-17? , is it installed in JF-17 supplied to PAK?
Now you started talking about WS-13A and WS-13 B etc etc

 

[Abingdonboy]

It's pretty interesting to note that on one side China is developing not 1 but 2 fifth gen. stealth fighters scheduled to be inducted by 2020 & on the other side there is the news that China is in negotiations with Russia for a 4.5 gen sukhoi 35 scheduled to be inducted around the same time?? I mean how does it make sense?? The only thing that comes to my mind (pls prove me wrong if u can) is that J-20 as well as J-31 are not that much capable an ac than it should be & PLAAF is going for more trustworthy ac like a sukhoi 35 from Russia.

P.S. @sancho, @Abingdonboy (sorry for mentioning ur names but i wanted ur reply on this one )

Well it's pretty simple if it is the case that China is looking to buy SU-35s then it just confirms what I have been saying all along. The Chinese aerospace industery is just not up to the same level as the West and Russia. Now the J-20/31 might look all nice and stealthy but what really gives a 5th gen fighter an edge is avionics,sensor fusion,EW suite,engines and weapons package. China is dearly lacking in all these areas. Russia and the West are far,FAR ahead in all these areas so the idea of a Su-35 purchase for China would be to buy one of the most capable fighters on the market right now to strip down and reverse engineer. The Su-35 would come with some good sensors and a very good engine. Now others like say the French, are ahead of Russia in the avionics/sensor arena eg the SPECTRA suite is the most capable such system on the planet by all accounts, but the French just aren't willing to sell such equipment to the Chinese nor are most of the world due to China's complete disregard of IP laws. As such China is turning to Russia. The fact is China can't play catch up in complete isolation in the span of jusrt over a decade so it does need outside help but this help is not forthcoming. Not to mention that whilst Russia has some great tech in some areas it too is lacking notably avionics and sensors-this is why India has gone with Western (Israeli/French) tech on their MKIs not to mention Indian tech and will do so even on the 5th gen fighters from Russia. But Russia is the only viable player out their even considering sales to China. As such China has dug itself into quite a whole and this is where India actually stands in a better position- yes India is currently lagging in indigenous production of defence equipment but the thing is that it is still freinds with everyone and all the major defence companies in the world are entering into JVs left right and centre not to mention TOT is coming in for almost every major defence purchases these days. India is going to be able to take expertise from those on the cutting edge whilst China continues to struggle in isolation. It is for this exact reason that China is going to have an incredibly tough time getting a grip on ACC operations and my guess is it is going to lose A LOT of lives and machines unfortunately. What they are attempting to do has never been done before ie get a handle on the basics of ACC operations with supersonic high-performance jets. All other ACC powers started out with props and sub-sonic a/c.

Having said that I still think the chances of Russia selling a full spec SU-35 to China is remote. Russia has been burned by this before (SU-33/30). Why would Russia want to sell China a product that they will strip down, reverse engineer, give it a new designation and then market themselves as an "indigenous" product cutting into Russia's export sales? If the Russians are not even willing to sell China Mig-29Ks for their ACCs because of fear of IP infringement why would they sell Su-35s? It makes no sense and it seems to be a lot of hot air IMHO. Russia stands to lose more than it gains.


All the best to China though-it is going to need it.


@arp2041 - no problem bro, if you need help just ask!

 

[arp2041]

Well it's pretty simple if it is the case that China is looking to buy SU-35s then it just confirms what I have been saying all along. The Chinese aerospace industery is just not up to the same level as the West and Russia. Now the J-20/31 might look all nice and stealthy but what really gives a 5th gen fighter an edge is avionics,sensor fusion,EW suite,engines and weapons package. China is dearly lacking in all these areas. Russia and the West are far,FAR ahead in all these areas so the idea of a Su-35 purchase for China would be to buy one of the most capable fighters on the market right now to strip down and reverse engineer. The Su-35 would come with some good sensors and a very good engine. Now others like say the French, are ahead of Russia in the avionics/sensor arena eg the SPECTRA suite is the most capable such system on the planet by all accounts, but the French just aren't willing to sell such equipment to the Chinese nor are most of the world due to China's complete disregard of IP laws. As such China is turning to Russia. The fact is China can't play catch up in complete isolation in the span of jusrt over a decade so it does need outside help but this help is not forthcoming. Not to mention that whilst Russia has some great tech in some areas it too is lacking notably avionics and sensors-this is why India has gone with Western (Israeli/French) tech on their MKIs not to mention Indian tech and will do so even on the 5th gen fighters from Russia. But Russia is the only viable player out their even considering sales to China. As such China has dug itself into quite a whole and this is where India actually stands in a better position- yes India is currently lagging in indigenous production of defence equipment but the thing is that it is still freinds with everyone and all the major defence companies in the world are entering into JVs left right and centre not to mention TOT is coming in for almost every major defence purchases these days. India is going to be able to take expertise from those on the cutting edge whilst China continues to struggle in isolation. It is for this exact reason that China is going to have an incredibly tough time getting a grip on ACC operations and my guess is it is going to lose A LOT of lives and machines unfortunately. What they are attempting to do has never been done before ie get a handle on the basics of ACC operations with supersonic high-performance jets. All other ACC powers started out with props and sub-sonic a/c.

Having said that I still think the chances of Russia selling a full spec SU-35 to China is remote. Russia has been burned by this before (SU-33/30). Why would Russia want to sell China a product that they will strip down, reverse engineer, give it a new designation and then market themselves as an "indigenous" product cutting into Russia's export sales? If the Russians are not even willing to sell China Mig-29Ks for their ACCs because of fear of IP infringement why would they sell Su-35s? It makes no sense and it seems to be a lot of hot air IMHO. Russia stands to lose more than it gains.


All the best to China though-it is going to need it.


@arp2041 - no problem bro, if you need help just ask!

Thanks for ur reply, this raises some more questions though:

1. Why is Russia arming China with state of the art tech. when China can become a threat to Russia itself, not to mention Russia's largest weapons importer - India.

2. Russia is insisting China to buy a certain no. of sukhoi 35s & than only they will sell it, whichever way it is certain that China will reverse engineer it anyway & put certain systems in it's own J-20/31 & it will become a more favorable for exports to countries who wants to buy 5th gen fighters at cheap prices, thus cutting down the export orders of it's own PAK-FA/FGFA.

3. After China going for sukhoi-35s i am becoming skeptical of the J-20/31, can they really be called a 5th gen ac in the league of F-22 raptors or PAK-FAs?? Or it will be in the same league that of Rafale/Eurofighters & it will be IAF that turns out to be the more powerful force of the region (with better gen ac) when it inducts it's own FGFA.

 

[sexy gun]

china is all noise but empty vessel !!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thanks for ur reply, this raises some more questions though:

1. Why is Russia arming China with state of the art tech. when China can become a threat to Russia itself, not to mention Russia's largest weapons importer - India.

2. Russia is insisting China to buy a certain no. of sukhoi 35s & than only they will sell it, whichever way it is certain that China will reverse engineer it anyway & put certain systems in it's own J-20/31 & it will become a more favorable for exports to countries who wants to buy 5th gen fighters at cheap prices, thus cutting down the export orders of it's own PAK-FA/FGFA.

3. After China going for sukhoi-35s i am becoming skeptical of the J-20/31, can they really be called a 5th gen ac in the league of F-22 raptors or PAK-FAs?? Or it will be in the same league that of Rafale/Eurofighters & it will be IAF that turns out to be the more powerful force of the region (with better gen ac) when it inducts it's own FGFA.

@arp2041
1)Money, pure and simple it all comes down the $$$. Since the fall of the USSR the Russian arms industry has been in turmoil because the demand from the Russian forces is practically non-existent. As such it is using revenue from export sales to build up industry at home so they can possibly offer them to Russian forces. Just look at the Mig-29K example, before India was involved this plane was a non-starter, as soon as India was on board the RuN got serious about the MIG-29K. However the Russians are going to have to tread a fine line-they are already paranoid about losing their greatest customer they don't want to rock the boat too much and shot themselves in the foot- there is no way the Chinese will pick up the slack if India leaves the party meaning the Russians stand to lose tens of billions. Until I see anything creidlbe I am still skeptical that Russia will actually sell China this plane, but it could happen.

2)Russia is insisting on large orders of SU-35 before tey commit to a sale because of past IP infringment by Chinese wrt SU-33/30 sold to China by them. And the the sale of SU-35 is only possible if China offsets the loss in revenue the Russians will feel because of the IP theft of the Chinese by larger orders ie 200+ but the Chinese are not likely to go for large orders because all they want to do is reverse engineer the machine so only a handful of fighters are required for this. As such you have conflicting interests and an impasse.

3) mate you should have been skeptical BEFORE all this talk of the SU-35! How does anyone really think China has surpassed the standards of the West/Russia wrt 5th gen tech with only a fraction of the time and funds invested in such a venture?? It just isn't possible! If the J-20/31 were credible threats the US would be going crazy but they have barely batted an eyelid, why? Because almost any aviation expert worth their salt agrees that what we see flying are nothing but flying "shells". There is simply no way the Chinese have developed the tech to rival the West or Russia in this arena-NO WAY. Is it really logical to think that one of the greatest aviation companies in the world (Lockheed Martin) working with some of the leading defence companies in the world (BAE systems,Northrup Grunmen, Raytheon etc) would be out done in a fraction of the time by the Chinese who have barely even got a grasp on building a 4th gen fighter??! The simple truth is China has a long and hard road in front of it and the fact it is working in isolation and foregoing R&D for industrial espionage means the task is mammoth. The Chinese are at least 15 years (probably more) away from fielding any fighter that can even be compared to what we might call a 5th gen fighter. The fact that there is 0 transparency around these defence projects means they have smartly insulated themselves from any sort of criticism that other programs like, say, the EFT or LCA have had to endure.

When the PAK-FA enters service it will be a fully devloped 5th gen fighter with all the bells and whistles and will have benifited from decades of meticulous R&D and BILLIONS of USD in investment. The version the IAF will get (the "MKIised" version) will build on these strenghts and enhance the system as a whole by fitting the best possible tech from all over the world (India,Israel,France) onto their fighters whilst the RuAF's will only have Russian-origin systems. So yes, the PAK-FA and F-22 will be streaks ahead of the J-20/31 whenever they enter service and will have undergone many upgrades and later tranches.


And the IAF's (same goes for IA/IN) strength has always been qualitive superiorty over the Chinese forces but the Chinese are able to(try and) balance this out with sheer numbers-that is where their strength lies. But the future is still open to change, and all we can do is wait and see!