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What kind of silly argument is this? I'm following this forum from ~5 years. I know that people can be banned on this or any forum.



I'm also saying I knew. Is this a complex variation of unified field theory not to understand? ROFL, what kind of childish argument is this? I was on many Telugu NRI boards and forums, from mid 2000s, acted as mod at some point too. I specifically told you in my first post 'I'm not on any Defence forums' also I told you I'm following this forum from 4-5 years.

Forget about @xeuss, he has an agenda to peddle, I did not expect this from you Joe, a fellow sona masoori eater.

But what seems to be the problem? Just some facetious badinage exchanged with another member should not fill you with such mental turmoil. Why don't you just relax and post interesting views on interesting topics?

As Dal Khors, we have an evil reputation to maintain.

The answer is simple - India should care only for Indians, try not be a "dharmshala", is not it? Therefore any alien is a equally a drag for us when millions of our own Hindus (and Muslims) are dying of malnutrition.


But what if the cow has already been slaughtered?

IMHO, we need to ask @Arulmozhi Varman to clarify what he has written. Apparently, he is taking the entire thing as a phenomenon restricted to Assam, and is contesting the possibility that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; that, in other words, the NRC will sooner or later be applied to the rest of India, and that given the results in Assam, the same results will be replicated in that rest of India, and that the CAA will then be used as a convenient valve, allowing through all but the Muslims. Those, having no documents, will then presumably be herded into camps, and kept confined.

How does he see the situation as different?

Let's ask him.
 
What kind of silly argument is this? I'm following this forum from ~5 years. I know that people can be banned on this or any forum.



I'm also saying I knew. Is this a complex variation of unified field theory not to understand? ROFL, what kind of childish argument is this? I was on many Telugu NRI boards and forums, from mid 2000s, worked as mod at some point too. I specifically told you in my first post 'I'm not on any Defence forums' also I told you I'm following this forum from 4-5 years.

Forget about @xeuss, he has an agenda to peddle, I did not expect this from you Joe, a fellow sona masoori eater.
@Joe Shearer is a very insecure person. He has a lot of fan following among Indian Leftists, Islamists and of course the Pakistanis.

You have dared to question their argument. Even though you have done it logically and with out trolling you will now be marked for attacks. I think you have already been called a "Sanghi" which is like an abuse word in PDF. If not, wait for a day or two and you will get that epithet.

You may also soon join the illustrious ignore list of Joe
 
Nothing, just that I felt I'm being ragged by a ragtag senior and a faculty member, that too without much creativity ( I wouldn't be cribbing if it is creative, I promise :lol:)

Sure, I will eventually.

:rofl:

Ragtag senior :(
Faculty member :o:
...without much creativity :angry:

<thinks - someone give me a good strong epithet - this guy is making me insecure>
 
@Joe Shearer is a very insecure person. He has a lot of fan following among Indian Leftists, Islamists and of course the Pakistanis.

Academic bias is a universal phenomenon, Joe is no exception, he tries his best to balance things out (A typical teacher's quality) but yes, he is a human and has biases. If he has good fan following among a group, he surely represents a group and hence his words needs to be taken seriously.

You have dared to question their argument. Even though you have done it logically and with out trolling you will now be marked for attacks. I think you have already been called a "Sanghi" which is like an abuse word in PDF. If not, wait for a day or two and you will get that epithet.

That's okay! Satyameva Jayathe!!

You may also soon join the illustrious ignore list of Joe
I'll be glad to be ignored, if it comes to that, I'm neither getting paid to be here nor someone issued a 3line whip for me to post. But I am someone with a realisation that, ' Historically ideologies only divided and destroyed people'. So, let's see.
Ragtag senior :(
He'd called me sanghi and fascist etc; already.
<thinks - someone give me a good strong epithet - this guy is making me insecure>
:D
 
Academic bias is a universal phenomenon, Joe is no exception, he tries his best to balance things out (A typical teacher's quality) but yes, he is a human and has biases. If he has good fan following among a group, he surely represents a group and hence his words needs to be taken seriously.

If you know this much, you also know that awareness of one's own biases is essential for any teacher.

That's okay! Satyameva Jayathe!!


I'll be glad to be ignored, if it comes to that, I'm neither getting paid to be here nor someone issued a 3line whip for me to post. But I am someone with a realisation that, ' Historically ideologies only divided and destroyed people'. So, let's see.

You think anyone and everyone can get into my 'ignore' list? It takes special qualities; you have to be particularly stupid, or particularly deranged, or even both, to qualify. Sorry, but you, personally, have a long, long way to go before you get into that list. And let me warn you - a sense of humour won't help you, it'll work against you as far as getting listed is concerned.

He'd called me sanghi and fascist etc; already.

:D

Whoever this mysterious personage is.
 
If you know this much, you also know that awareness of one's own biases is essential for any teacher.

Absolutely, unless one wants to remain mediocre teacher. Any human for that matter, needs this awareness imo to grow, evolve, not stagnate.

And let me warn you - a sense of humour won't help you, it'll work against you as far as getting listed is concerned.

Hahaha, gotcha!
 
The answer is simple - India should care only for Indians, try not be a "dharmshala", is not it? Therefore any alien is a equally a drag for us when millions of our own Hindus (and Muslims) are dying of malnutrition.


But what if the cow has already been slaughtered?

That is the argument but help me understand the opposition on which this law is based. Forget the implementation for one moment. But just the basic law.
The opposition says to give citizenship to all. They are not using the argument "don't give to anybody". That's the question of how it is possible when the communities aren't treated equal in all 3 countries.
 
That is the argument but help me understand the opposition on which this law is based. Forget the implementation for one moment. But just the basic law.
The opposition says to give citizenship to all. They are not using the argument "don't give to anybody". That's the question of how it is possible when the communities aren't treated equal in all 3 countries.
Many are saying, don't give it to anybody. You're focusing on one side only.
 
But what seems to be the problem? Just some facetious badinage exchanged with another member should not fill you with such mental turmoil. Why don't you just relax and post interesting views on interesting topics?

As Dal Khors, we have an evil reputation to maintain.



IMHO, we need to ask @Arulmozhi Varman to clarify what he has written. Apparently, he is taking the entire thing as a phenomenon restricted to Assam, and is contesting the possibility that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; that, in other words, the NRC will sooner or later be applied to the rest of India, and that given the results in Assam, the same results will be replicated in that rest of India, and that the CAA will then be used as a convenient valve, allowing through all but the Muslims. Those, having no documents, will then presumably be herded into camps, and kept confined.

How does he see the situation as different?

Let's ask him.

This laws primary purpose is to protect Hindu illegal migrants from Migrants in Assam. There would have been no need for this amendment had all the illegals had been identified as Muslims. But the BJP govt cannot bring it a law specifically targetting Assam as SC is already monitoring the implementation of Assam Accords. The migrants from Pakistan is awfully low.
To your other question whether NRC will be implemented throughout India? Yes it will be. Whether it's BJP or the Congress. Ex HM PC already clarified it's need and they will implement it when they are in power using diff law. So I am not sure why you are any other should resist the idea of NRC. India at some point in her time needs to identify who her citizens are. What we can and should make sure is NRC is non discriminatory.

The question. Will CAA be used for people who don't have whatever docs NRC asks to publish and reject those people who are Muslims? It is a huge possibility. But I do not see how Tamil or Mallu speaking Muslims will be from BD or Pakistan. Infact even Pakistani Muslim illegals in India is damn low. It's only from Bangladesh that illegals have been detected and deported far and wide of this nation. The only risky people in these whole case scenario are Bengali Muslims particularly living in Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Assam. I am not belittling their status or fear factor but that's the practical possibility.

If and the last if, the NRC criteria has to come out and should have state govt to implement it. I do not see Kerala or TN or AP or WB or Bihar implementing the NRC in the first place. I am not going to defend or oppose NRC process till I see the draft of documents required.

In all you still haven't answered my question why the law is bad morally in the first place? Why is the demand of treating all illegals equally when they are treated unequally in the first place in their host countries?
 
This laws primary purpose is to protect Hindu illegal migrants from Migrants in Assam. There would have been no need for this amendment had all the illegals had been identified as Muslims. But the BJP govt cannot bring it a law specifically targetting Assam as SC is already monitoring the implementation of Assam Accords. The migrants from Pakistan is awfully low.

The difficulty with dealing with your arguments is that they are very difficult to understand.

What does this mean, for example: "....to protect Hindu illegal migrants from Migrants in Assam..."? Are you saying that Muslims are to be expelled selectively and that Hindus are to be retained? Are you aware that the people of Assam, and most particularly those organisations that had agitated against the illegal migration problem particularly, the AASU and the AAGSP, to name two, have explicitly stated that they want ALL to be expelled, not just Muslims alone? That their movement is against all who are not original natives of Assam?

How do you think these two views will be reconciled, in the first place, and what good will a law, any law do, in the absence of the support of the local people?

Second, how do you think this blatant religious discrimination will pass the references to the courts that are inevitable?

You go on to say, in your rather opaque language, that the migrants from Pakistan is awfully low. Whatever does this mean? Where does Pakistan come into the picture, or did you mean Bangladesh that was originally East Pakistan?

To your other question whether NRC will be implemented throughout India? Yes it will be. Whether it's BJP or the Congress. Ex HM PC already clarified it's need and they will implement it when they are in power using diff law. So I am not sure why you are any other should resist the idea of NRC. India at some point in her time needs to identify who her citizens are. What we can and should make sure is NRC is non discriminatory.

Flatly contradicts your own opening paragraph.

The question. Will CAA be used for people who don't have whatever docs NRC asks to publish and reject those people who are Muslims? It is a huge possibility. But I do not see how Tamil or Mallu speaking Muslims will be from BD or Pakistan.

How will that matter to rabid religious bigots? Do you think that having found that someone is technically unqualified to be a citizen of India according to the rules of the NRC, a government like the BJP one in power will then suddenly be overcome by a vast wave of sympathy and kindness on hearing the rejected citizens speaking in Tamil or in Malayalam? Do you think they care where the Muslims trapped in their net come from?

Infact even Pakistani Muslim illegals in India is damn low. It's only from Bangladesh that illegals have been detected and deported far and wide of this nation. The only risky people in these whole case scenario are Bengali Muslims particularly living in Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Assam. I am not belittling their status or fear factor but that's the practical possibility.

This with a sweep of the arm and with NO data to back it up but urban legend. Wonderful.

If and the last if, the NRC criteria has to come out and should have state govt to implement it. I do not see Kerala or TN or AP or WB or Bihar implementing the NRC in the first place. I am not going to defend or oppose NRC process till I see the draft of documents required.

Right. Wait until you can see to the bottom of the Falls before deciding whether or not you want to ride down Niagara Falls in a barrel.

Very intelligent, very far-sighted. And very likely to be effective if there is a grossly distorted procedure proposed.

In all you still haven't answered my question why the law is bad morally in the first place? Why is the demand of treating all illegals equally when they are treated unequally in the first place in their host countries?

This is either naive or knavish. Nobody is arguing FOR illegal immigrants, even though your fundamental proposition that the Hindu counts for more than the Muslim is questionable. It is not that at all, and if you haven't got it so far, you should be discussing the results of blind-testing Coke vs. Pepsi, not these issues.

The whole point is that the existing Muslim citizenry of the country is at risk from the ruthless manipulations of this government. We have seen in case after case after case that they go out of their way to victimise Muslims; the charge-sheets in the Delhi riots are a case in point. It is not about illegal immigrants; it was NEVER about illegal immigrants. This is the BJP's step to harass and to make miserable the existing legal citizens of India who happen to be Muslim.

If you haven't got it so far, you need some serious counselling.

You also need to improve your language. It is almost incomprehensible.
 
The difficulty with dealing with your arguments is that they are very difficult to understand.

What does this mean, for example: "....to protect Hindu illegal migrants from Migrants in Assam..."? Are you saying that Muslims are to be expelled selectively and that Hindus are to be retained? Are you aware that the people of Assam, and most particularly those organisations that had agitated against the illegal migration problem particularly, the AASU and the AAGSP, to name two, have explicitly stated that they want ALL to be expelled, not just Muslims alone? That their movement is against all who are not original natives of Assam?

How do you think these two views will be reconciled, in the first place, and what good will a law, any law do, in the absence of the support of the local people?

Second, how do you think this blatant religious discrimination will pass the references to the courts that are inevitable?

You go on to say, in your rather opaque language, that the migrants from Pakistan is awfully low. Whatever does this mean? Where does Pakistan come into the picture, or did you mean Bangladesh that was originally East Pakistan?



Flatly contradicts your own opening paragraph.



How will that matter to rabid religious bigots? Do you think that having found that someone is technically unqualified to be a citizen of India according to the rules of the NRC, a government like the BJP one in power will then suddenly be overcome by a vast wave of sympathy and kindness on hearing the rejected citizens speaking in Tamil or in Malayalam? Do you think they care where the Muslims trapped in their net come from?



This with a sweep of the arm and with NO data to back it up but urban legend. Wonderful.



Right. Wait until you can see to the bottom of the Falls before deciding whether or not you want to ride down Niagara Falls in a barrel.

Very intelligent, very far-sighted. And very likely to be effective if there is a grossly distorted procedure proposed.



This is either naive or knavish. Nobody is arguing FOR illegal immigrants, even though your fundamental proposition that the Hindu counts for more than the Muslim is questionable. It is not that at all, and if you haven't got it so far, you should be discussing the results of blind-testing Coke vs. Pepsi, not these issues.

The whole point is that the existing Muslim citizenry of the country is at risk from the ruthless manipulations of this government. We have seen in case after case after case that they go out of their way to victimise Muslims; the charge-sheets in the Delhi riots are a case in point. It is not about illegal immigrants; it was NEVER about illegal immigrants. This is the BJP's step to harass and to make miserable the existing legal citizens of India who happen to be Muslim.

If you haven't got it so far, you need some serious counselling.

You also need to improve your language. It is almost incomprehensible.

I type from my mobile. Sometimes the new AI picks the most commonly used words and it comes as suggestions especially whenever I quote something.
I meant to say Bangladesh instead of migrants in that particular sentence. I meant to say if all illegals had been Muslims the govt wouldn't have even bothered to bring up CAA in the first place. This law was bought to protect Hindu illegal migrants who through are BJP's biggest votebanks. While protestors in Assam do not want anyone to get to stay there, that's not what BJP thinks. I am not saying throw the Muslims out. It would be impossible to throw anyone out after 20-30 years of staying in the country even if they are illegals. I never said that.

As for support of local people, that will be known in the next Assam elections. It's not far away.

Not sure whether you choose to ignore the points I make or genuinely do not understand. I was pretty clear. The first para deals why the BJP bought in CAA, mainly to protect one community. Next one deals with NRC, which many fear is linked to the CAA. NRC, on which both INC and BJP feel it's required.

As for third side, what options do they have? Let's say out of 20-22 crore Muslims, 2-3 crores doesn't have valid documents. Do anyone think they will be sent to detention centres? Who will fund it? India will be placed under sanctions and strife will overcome this nation.
BJP has done things which they promised in their manifesto. They didn't promise to disenfranchise Muslims. I am sure there are lots of reasonable leaders other an AS to steer the party of such unnecessary controversies.
There is fear and then there is fear mongering. BJP and Congress are experts at it.

So you have never ever read any news of BD migrants found in southern states and deported? Just said even genuine Bengali migrants in other states will be harrased wrt CAA.

I recognize the fear in which citizens of this nations feel they might be made disenfranchised. Nowhere did I deny such an prospect. It would be easy for you since you have taken an clear cut position that India doesn't need an CAA or an NRC.
I am of the position India needs both with ample protection process in between. That's the reason I support some points, recognise fear in some aspects and also oppose some issues. Not everything is supposed to be in binary. CAA needed for protecting minorities of our neighbouring countries (including SL) and NRC for documenting our citizens and making sure no more illegals atleast in the future.

Many are saying, don't give it to anybody. You're focusing on one side only.

That's a minority. The problem as Joe identified is not giving citizenship to illegal Muslims. Even if INC was there, there would be no way of illegal Bengali Muslims getting citizenship. But the fear that current citizens might be disenfranchised if NRC is linked to CAA.
Protestors and other included (me as well) has to ensure NRC is not linked to CAA and probably bring a new law for which it should be based.
 
They didn't promise to disenfranchise Muslims.
Muslim demographic control especially as a voting block is a part of RSS ideology, are you naïve or acting one?
no more illegals atleast in the future.
Yeah, then everyone with say, 2011 documents is a citizen, that seems pretty fair deal for "at least future", no?
Protestors and other included (me as well) has to ensure NRC is not linked to CAA and probably bring a new law for which it should be based.
My position is quite clear - no CAA as it's like putting religion above country.
Let's say out of 20-22 crore Muslims, 2-3 crores doesn't have valid documents. Do anyone think they will be sent to detention centres?
Just take away their citizenship and reduce them as stateless residents in India.

First one is pretty comical video :lol:
 
As for third side, what options do they have? Let's say out of 20-22 crore Muslims, 2-3 crores doesn't have valid documents. Do anyone think they will be sent to detention centres? Who will fund it? India will be placed under sanctions and strife will overcome this nation.

This has been explained before. Some will be sent to detention camps, but for most, they will just become stateless.

This is how it will pan out.

Step 1. NPR is rolled out
Step 2. District Officer will add a "D" for Doubtful on certain names of people who they suspect to not be Indians.
Step 3. NRC will be rolled out.
Step 4. Those with a "D" on their names, will be required to prove citizenship. If Assam is any example, acceptance of documents will be arbitrary and uneven.
Step 5. Those unable to prove citizenship or are excluded from NRC, will be ineligible for any other government issued documents. If you held a drivers license, it will no longer be renewed. With lack of official documents, people will be unable to enroll in schools, conduct official or economic transactions, including buying or selling of properties. You will have millions of people who will then automatically become subjects of the informal economy, with no prospect of advancement.

Notable Points:
1. NRC is a pointless exercise where one governmental agency will be entrusted to evaluate documents issued by other government agencies. I have never seen a worse form of wasteful expenditure and exercise, ever.
2. Most Hindus will never be asked for documents, since their name will never be marked as "D"
3. Most Muslims will be included in the "D" category and required to prove their citizenship. This is where we suspect most of the discrimination will take place, at the District Officer level in Step 2 above.
4. The CAA provides an escape clause for any non-Muslim entrapped by the NRC exercise. The law is cleverly written to modify sections of the Entry in India Act and Passport Act.

If you want to understand more, read up on how the Tamils in Sri Lanka were subjected to a similar exercise in the 1950s, that led to the birth of Tamil separatism and the LTTE. Another more recent example is the Rohingyas in Burma.
 

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