Neo-Indus nationalism does not work

[Joe Shearer]

Please share your point of view; the third alternative. Many of us know that neither case is fully correct (or fully incorrect). Pakistani Nationalism is a very unique confusing historical phenomenon that's continuously evolving, in part, due to constantly changing geopolitical realities post 1947/1971/2001 etc, and maybe it is not yet possible to arrive at a single, comprehensive theory to explain what Pakistani Nationalism entails. During the struggle for independence, Pakistan meant different things for different people.. a trend that continues to this day. I believe how the British viewed the concept of/alternative Pakistan in the 1940s needs to be analyzed in more detail.

I believe that there were two parts to it, and only the second part should count today.

The origin was in the hurt pride of a dominant minority that found that a universal franchise democracy would swamp them, and formed a view that they should not be part of such a universal franchise democracy. Unfortunately, the concept of consociationalism had not been properly articulated then, otherwise political scientists would have been acknowledging today that Jinnah's plan was a perfect example of consociationalism, the concept on which Canada runs so happily and successfully today.

In the last 70 years, however, this hurt pride ceased to be the foundation; while it plays a part in our mutual interaction in almost every way, the foundation has shifted to every Pakistani's voluntary acceptance of Pakistan, even joyful celebration of being Pakistani. That is the real nazariya-e-Pakistan, and all else is distraction. It matters only that this large number of people has decided to make a country together, and feel good about their country.

 

[M. Sarmad]

But ours has had a staggering number of them since it's inception. Not only that, but they're not really migrants in the first place since they helped found Pakistan (e.g Jinnah's family came from Gujarat).

Staggering numbers?? please provide a reliable source
And MQM, the party representing Muhajirs, is a secular political party anyway.

 

[saiyan0321]

Nationalism, culture, ideologies. These are not stagnant thing but an ever evolving notions for each nation and for each generation. Our future generations may see the ideology behind Pakistan from a completely different viewpoint as we may see it just as our forefathers may see it in a very different way.

The muslim league may have used religious slogans and may have approved union along national lines but after the end point the destiny of Pakistan is what we make it.

I have stated it repeatedly. The past is something to learn from not something to shackle yourself to.

Our forefathers, when they made this country, desired only to see a prosperous nation irrespective of whatever ideology that may rule it. That is all they left us with and that is all they could leave us with.

It maybe that at the end of this road we may see a Pakistan that may differ from our visions but as long as its a prosperous nation fulfilling the needs and rights of all its citizens, then it has fulfilled the desire of our forefathers...


It is not our duty to support some pan Islamic empire nor such dreams hold the country together. The greatest unifying factor in Pakistan is simply the fact that 208 million people wish to coexist and call themselves and associate themselves as Pakistanis.. Like it or not that is the only thing that has kept us united.. Our unity has always taken a hit whenever this notion has always fallen.

Today Pakistan has withstood ethnic and religious onslaught that shook the very core of its being only bcz each Pakistani felt a sense of unity with another Pakistani simply for the fact that they were Pakistani...

Nationalism, ideologies and culture always evolve so yes the Pakistani concepts of all three are evolving and will evolve further...

 

[El Sidd]

Bunch of misfits being philosophical about their place in globalized world.

The amount of propaganda done to somehow mainstream the IVC nationalism is quite interesting. None can however point out to any time in history where the touted IVC had singular culture, language or foreign policy.

This is understandable that the Diaspora which is suffering from Identity crisis but don't you love professional trolls and aspiring seculars leeching on in here.

 

[Mentee]

Come again singular culture and lingo?
Rome wasn't built in a day.

Muslim (203) narrated from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that a man said: “O Messenger of Allaah, where is my father?” He said: “In Hell.” When he turned away he called him back and said: “My father and your father are in Hell.”

If Rasulullah's (peace be upon him) father is in hell, then I'm pretty sure many of our pre-Islamic ancestors are too.

@Taimur Khurram You ugly filthy pile of eternal - - - - - - - - - - - had you slandered like this infront of me I'd have ripped you apart.

@Zaki @waz @Dubious I demand a permanent ban for this iblees

 

[SecularNationalist]

By neo-Indus nationalism, I am referring to the (relatively) modern sub-ideology of Pakistani nationalism, which postulates that rather than Pakistan being made as a homeland for the Muslims of British India, Pakistan was in fact made for the people of the Indus

Dude there should be no room for debate on this topic.We all know religion was the main cause behind partition.Pakistan was made for the muslims of the subcontinent.The people of the indus includes all religions in the subcontinent.I really do not know from where did you get all this,no one here deny that pakistan mas made for muslims of the subcontinent.Otherwise what,s the rationale behind partition?

 

[Mentee]

Someone just call CTD on his sorry existence and the one feeding him such lies.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Though I personally don't think that country should be before Islam but you are wrong that religion is the only reason behind existence of Pakistan because it suggest we had no existence before Islam. Pakistan came into existence because they( native Muslims) were not getting equal social, economic and political rights in undivided subcontinent

Finally some sane voice in the thread

Someone just call CTD on his sorry existence and the one feeding him such lies.

Who called?

 

[Mentee]

Who called?

If he's not hunted down like the boar he is mark my words he gonna explode some place else or nurture terror like his mother fed this piece of feces.

@Taimur Khurram kisay certified Gandi nassal dia toba kr ya suicide kr la haramzaaday!

 

[SecularNationalist]

If he's not hunted down like the boar he is mark my words he gonna explode some place else or nurture terror like his mother fed this piece of feces.

@Taimur Khurram kisay certified Gandi nassal dia toba kr ya suicide kr la haramzaaday!

CTD is the most hated department of our country these days .I am sure they are afraid to take any action.

 

[American Pakistani]

Islam is our religion
Pakistan/Indus is our identity/history.

How dumb can one be to mix both. Didn't we see Zia's mix up resulted in death of 100 k Pakistanis?

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Taimur Khurram You ugly filthy pile of eternal - - - - - - - - - - - had you slandered like this infront of me I'd have ripped you apart.

@Zaki @waz @Dubious I demand a permanent ban for this iblees

Calm down, bro

The Wahhabis/Salafīs nowadays are the staunchest and most prominent opponents of the prophet’s parents’ salvation. They have 'reignited' this centuries-old debate which had been settled by Jalal-ud-din as-Sayuti (d. 1505) who composed six treatises on the subject:

• Masālik al-ḥunafāʾ fī islām wāliday al-Muṣṭafā, his longest and most elaborate treatise,
• Al-Maqāma as-sundusīya fī ḫabar wāliday ḫayr al-barriyya
• Ad-Daraǧ al-munīfa fī l-abāʾ aš-šarīfa
• At-Taʿẓīm wa-l-manna fī anna wāliday al-Muṣṭafā fī l-ǧanna
• Našr al-ʿalamayn al-munīfayn fī iḥyāʾ al-abawayn
• As-Subul al-ǧaliyya fī l-abāʾ al-ʿaliyya.

 

[El Sidd]

Calm down, bro

The Wahhabis/Salafīs nowadays are the staunchest and most prominent opponents of the prophet’s parents’ salvation. They have 'reignited' this centuries-old debate which had been settled by Jalal-ud-din as-Sayuti (d. 1505) who composed six treatises on the subject:

• Masālik al-ḥunafāʾ fī islām wāliday al-Muṣṭafā, his longest and most elaborate treatise,
• Al-Maqāma as-sundusīya fī ḫabar wāliday ḫayr al-barriyya
• Ad-Daraǧ al-munīfa fī l-abāʾ aš-šarīfa
• At-Taʿẓīm wa-l-manna fī anna wāliday al-Muṣṭafā fī l-ǧanna
• Našr al-ʿalamayn al-munīfayn fī iḥyāʾ al-abawayn
• As-Subul al-ǧaliyya fī l-abāʾ al-ʿaliyya.

anyhow

tell me

If Saraswati, Ganga and Yamuna can be worshipped as Goddess just like Nile is/was. Why can't IVC people worship the Indus? The Sindhu river.

 

[T-123456]

I think this attempt to try and form a cohesive Pakistani identity without involving Islam has utterly failed. I will soon make a follow-up thread justifying my position that being a proud Pakistani must entail one's appreciation for Islamic principles and values as well as Muslim history (especially from what was once British India).

Isnt Pakistans identity 'Muslim first' already,what is it that you want to change?
Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Sharia law,Blasphemy law etc,what more do you want?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

@Taimur Khurram You ugly filthy pile of eternal - - - - - - - - - - - had you slandered like this infront of me I'd have ripped you apart.

This is the mainstream Salafi view.

As detestable and ignorant of the magnificence of the family of Prophet Muhammad saws and Banu Hashim it is, we must learn to grow a thick skin to this kind of religious difference.

Ahle Hadees in our own nation regularly spout this kind of revisionist history from pulpits.

This is why we are Ahlus Sunnah wa al Jama’ah, we accept the Quran and Sunnah and we don’t make takfir or isolate any Muslims who differ from us, be they Salafi, Ahle Hadees, or Shia.

Islam is our religion
Pakistan/Indus is our identity/history.

How dumb can one be to mix both. Didn't we see Zia's mix up resulted in death of 100 k Pakistanis?

We need a heavy dose of Turkish/Iranian style religious nationalism to undo this confusion among our countrymen. Religion and ethnicity should be one and the same, inseparable.

Our past governments have failed abysmally to re-define Pakistan’s identity in light of challenges brought by 1971 and the WoT.

Yet I tell you that even with the confusion of Pakistani identity among the upper class of Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, there is a strong grassroots realization in Pakistan of what we stand for.

The challenges that we have faced have brought us closer together than ever before and as time goes on, our differences are beginning to disappear until eventually we as a nation will be one race, ethnicity, and society.

The election of PTI has been a real change and breath of fresh air to our polity. It has propelled KPK into a leadership position. There is one segment of our population which is not confused about their identity and those are Pukhtoons.

If you ask a Pukhtoon what is his identity, to him he is both equally an ethnic Pukhtoon and a Muslim. There is no difference between the two. By definition a Pukhtoon is almost always a Muslim.

This is the strongest identity today in Pakistan and will shape our future.