Nawaz Sharif Wins; Imran Khan fails. The end of Imran Khan is now official. Nawaz Sharif returning to his original status of ruler of Pakistan.

[Ssan]

The book indeed is pretty much clear on what it says. It tells us that there were 101 Muslim ICS officers in undivided British India in 1947 at the eve of partition and out of them 95 chose to serve Pakistan and the remaining 6 chose to continue serving ICS/India (3 of them I know were Punjabi Muslims). Then it goes on to tell us that of those 95 officers who chose to serve Pakistan, one third were Punjabis. It further tells us that there were many Urdu-speakers as well but no numbers are given.

As for Punjabi Muhajirs, they have never identified themselves as Muhajirs. In fact, as much as one fourth of Punjab's entire population comprised of immigrants from East Punjab as per the 1951 census. When we talk about Muhajirs, we do not include Punjabi Muhajirs. The numbers/stats that have been shared on this thread are for Non-Punjabi immigrants who made Sindh their home after 1947.

Moreover, your claim that Muhajirs dominated nascent Pakistani bureaucracy is misleading in the sense that it was the quota system introduced in 1948 by Liaquat Ali that helped Muhajirs dominate Pakistan Bureaucracy in the early years of our existence. The Muhajirs couldn't have dominated bureaucracy (or economy for that matter) had it not been for Muhajir-friendly policies implemented rigorously by Liaquat Ali Khan, a Muhajir himself.

But those are things of the past. They are irrelevant now. Everyone has contributed significantly to the state of Pakistan. But you guys should not twist and distort history and facts to play victims when you clearly aren't. I know it's a bit hard for you to accept that Punjab is not the villain, as you have grown up listening to anti-Punjab rhetoric that no one bothers to verify/challenge

Dude I don’t understand how you are making this point.

First, the muhajjirs never wanted quotas. We didn’t need them. We represented the educated population. 15% of the quota in 1948 was given to those without domicile. These included the east Punjabis that migrated. Only 2% was reserved for Karachi (which was where most the muhajjirs were settling). After they would get domicile, they wouldn’t even qualify for the 15% anyways.

Even assuming that 17% was reserved for muhajjirs, that doesn’t explain why the numbers in bureaucracy have never been lower than 25% until after the 1970s.

By the reference you yourself quoted, it increased to 47% in 1950. And when we probe as to what govt policy it was that gave muhajjirs this increase, we find that it is because merit allocation was increased to 20% and this favored muhajjirs because of “higher literacy.”

Alright even assuming that the quotas somehow favored muhajjirs (even thought they didn’t, because they were in actuality limiting the number of muhajjirs who were in the bureaucracy in much higher numbers), how do you turn around and say that the quotas were harming Punjabis using the same logical argument I have made for muhajjirs?

In truth, the quotas in 1948 were not enforced very well. They were not enforced very well - to disadvantage the Bengalis. You can refer to the first publication I referenced that outlines this fact.

The real point quotas that mattered were those enforced that made distinction between urban and rural Sindh. And then slowly weeded out muhajjirs from the bureaucracy since the 1970s. Good bye meritocracy. Hello institutional decline.

I hope you don’t think that I am blaming Punjabis in any ways. I am not. I am blaming the establishment- which for whatever reason has always been ethnically biased towards Punjabis. Not essentially or anything. But it does explain why the taasub ki politics party in Punjab are the blue-eyed boys. Again this is a point in Pakistani history that is hard to dispute. Not the only broad group that establishment favors- class being another dimension.

But those are things of the past. They are irrelevant now. Everyone has contributed significantly to the state of Pakistan. But you guys should not twist and distort history and facts to play victims when you clearly aren't. I know it's a bit hard for you to accept that Punjab is not the villain, as you have grown up listening to anti-Punjab rhetoric that no one bothers to verify/challenge

Dude the only reason this back and forth started between us was because I said quotas passed by establishment had harmed Muhajjirs and Bengalis. For me, this is not controversial. You decided to counter that point by claiming that quotas actually helped muhajjirs. And here we are.

 

[Salik]

Is default the biggest issue in your eyes ? You are lost brother !

Everything will be fine.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Dude the only reason this back and forth started between us was because I said quotas passed by establishment had harmed Muhajjirs and Bengalis. For me, this is not controversial. You decided to counter that point by claiming that quotas actually helped muhajjirs. And here we are.

Well, my friend, let me remind you that you asserted repeatedly that Quota System was enforced to privilege and benefit Punjabis at the expense of Muhajirs and Bengalis, hence the debate/argument.. I only pointed it out to you that you couldn't have been more wrong. If facts and figures are something to consider, the quota system harmed Punjabis the most. We can discuss the second part (that how the Muhajirs benefitted from it in the early years) if we agree on the first one

As for your assertion that Establishment is biased towards Punjab, I would say that it has got nothing to do with ethnicity. It's just the most developed and most pro-Pakistan/pro-Army region within the country. At least it was, until recently

 

[ghazi52]

,.,..,
Dear gentlemen
In the context of the 1973 Constitution, every government in Pakistan is illegitimate and forbidden, in which, we do not have a part...
Fazlur Rahman.

 

[shah_123]

Now let’s be clear, I only raised my voice against their leaders, who happen to be the leaders of Pakistan most of the time since independence.

It never was, is or will be against the people, as they are no different from me.

We have a different view of a nation we would like, Strong, Dominant, Just & equal nation with a pair of balls, we want to dominate everything around us.

Grow balls, Deliver justice and equality and we will fight our own kin and kith to preserve and expand the state our forefathers chose to be with.

We don’t want just peace, we want to dominate, it’s in our blood, my name is the name of my people, we want to see 100 of Alauddin Khiljis.

I am sorry if you think I was spewing ethnic poison, that’s not the case I assure you as we are all brothers, all Pakistanis, we will always have difference of opinion but never hatred.

I am a Punjabi, but i am with you on delivering justice -- we all know who is responsible for the destruction of Pakistan -- we should rise above our ethnicity/tribes -- it's the ruling elite, they just give a two hoots who we ordinary people are.

but we must be very careful in our choice of words -- The best of creation Prophet Muhammad saw' said about tribalism " Leave it, it's rotten"

 

[Ssan]

Well, my friend, let me remind you that you asserted repeatedly that Quota System was enforced to privilege and benefit Punjabis at the expense of Muhajirs and Bengalis, hence the debate/argument.. I only pointed it out to you that you couldn't have been more wrong. If facts and figures are something to consider, the quota system harmed Punjabis the most. We can discuss the second part (that how the Muhajirs benefitted from it in the early years) if we agree on the first one

As for your assertion that Establishment is biased towards Punjab, I would say that it has got nothing to do with ethnicity. It's just the most developed and most pro-Pakistan/pro-Army region within the country. At least it was, until recently

It is strange to think that other people will remember what you say better than you yourself.

The first posts I made about the CSS /quotas have nothing to do with Punjab. I never state that the quotas were there to benefit Punjab. Just that they hurt Muhajirs and Bengalis. Which they do. Post #119 to which you reply in post #120 that the quotas are there to help muhajjirs.

So no I didn’t start out by saying that quotas were there to benefit Punjabis. But the way they were applied and enforced was done in a way to disadvantage Bengalis in the beginning and the Muhajjirs after to the benefit of Punjabis. Read this paper to that effect.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Katharine-Adeney/publication/233083586_The_Limitations_of_Non-consociational_Federalism_The_Example_of_Pakistan/links/567c27da08ae051f9ae193b6/The-Limitations-of-Non-consociational-Federalism-The-Example-of-Pakistan.pdf?origin=publication_detail

I will admit that I state in post #126 - responding to your point that the quotas benefited Muhajirs - that the quotas increased the number of Punjabis is wrong. It looks like there were plenty of Punjabis in the bureaucracy and the quotas of 1948 would have decreased their numbers if enforced , although they never were. In the same breath, the quotas would have decreased muhajjir numbers too if enforced but they weren’t. The lack of enforcement actually disadvantaged the Bengalis.

Post Yahya, the quotas were nothing but an attempt to disadvantage Muhajjirs. Meritocracy was killed and the institution is where it is now.

As for your assertion that Establishment is biased towards Punjab, I would say that it has got nothing to do with ethnicity. It's just the most developed and most pro-Pakistan/pro-Army region within the country. At least it was, until recently

Maybe. Or maybe, the army has been 80% Punjabi since day one. State Building in Pakistan” in Ali Bannazizi and Myron Weiner (eds), The State, Religion and Ethnic Politics: Pakistan, Iran and Afghan- istan, Lahore, Vanguard, 1987, p. 318

And the establishment has been active in hanky panky since day one. Liaquat Ali, east Pakistan, etc. And given that the establishment derives from the army, and the army was 80%, they naturally put in more punjabi friendly policies to placate their primary base.

I don’t know- I would have argued like you 6 months ago. Would have blamed Balochi ethnic prejudice for unrest in Balochistan. Right now, I think otherwise. Pretty sure the latter now.

 

[Ssan]

To be clear, I think the establishment sees the country and all of its provinces like colonies. Punjab included. But they may give some slightly beneficial policies to Punjabi elites as that is their primary base.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Maybe. Or maybe, the army has been 80% Punjabi since day one. State Building in Pakistan” in Ali Bannazizi and Myron Weiner (eds), The State, Religion and Ethnic Politics: Pakistan, Iran and Afghan- istan, Lahore, Vanguard, 1987, p. 318

And the establishment has been active in hanky panky since day one. Liaquat Ali, east Pakistan, etc. And given that the establishment derives from the army, and the army was 80%, they naturally put in more punjabi friendly policies to placate their primary base.

I don’t know- I would have argued like you 6 months ago. Would have blamed Balochi ethnic prejudice for unrest in Balochistan. Right now, I think otherwise. Pretty sure the latter now.

Central Punjab, the region most hated by racists around the country, has hardly around 4% representation in Pak Army.

Those often quoted figures of 75-80% are in fact recruits from Potohar, Hazara and AJK

 

[Ssan]

Central Punjab, the region most hated by racists around the country, has hardly around 4% representation in Pak Army.

Those often quoted figures of 75-80% are in fact recruits from Potohar, Hazara and AJK

Can you provide a reference? This is a curious fact.

 

[xyxmt]

Allah is a better planner then these Feron's mortals.

True but Allah's plan also include his punishment based on people's deeds

 

[ghazi52]

,.,..
Seeing the achievements of Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, Imran Khan is dying and Modi is sweating.......

 

[Fasbre2]

Anyone noticed how Bilawal Zardari is mimicking the mannerisms and facial expressions of SM Qureshi, former FM.. when he speaks in front of the mic..

 

[EternalMortal]

Racists are a funny breed. They claim IK wasn’t imposed in punjabis, which is true, but then turn around & claim that they will vote for pmln. His punjabi supporters likely outnumber all other ethnicities combined but apparently punjabis will vote for nawaz b/c he’s punjabi (actually ethnic kashmiri but ok). PTI has been winning every election in punjab ever since IK was removed solely on the basis that Punjabis were pissed at pmln being brought to power. This is with all the rigging attempts. What makes you think all will be forgotten once nawaz comes back?

You guys need to come out of your delusion that punjabis are some evil thugs & only your ethnicity is intelligent & honourable. Last time I checked you guys were voting for the same parties as punjab: Muslim league, PPP & PMLN. You didn’t vote PTI into power until 2013. Even now PTI has only 2/3 the seats in KPK.

Fact of the matter is that Punjab & KPK both tend to vote for whichever party is the “national” party at the time. It used to be PPP & PMLN. Now it’s PTI.

People here made Imran Khan idol which blinded them to see or believe on anyone

Reason for Imran going down he used İslam for his personal agenda and it's proven truth I'm against all chor o chakas but they never used İslam as Imran thought nation he is a khalifa

İnfact Imran would remain in power he would be more corrupt than any one remember he tasted the power of ruling so he will do what ever to get it back a man who believes on ALLAH never does that infact power come running for him

Since when is saying corruption is haram “using” Islam for power & how does it make you power hungry?

Plz post another YouTube video from your “friend” to back up your claims

 

[blain2]

Everything will be fine.

I agree with this statement. The "sky is falling" sentiment needs to be checked. PDM is not a permanent factor. There will be elections and even if IK is barred from running, he needs to build a team of trusted lieutenants who can get elected and run the country. The focus should remain on next elections on PTI's relatively cleaner image. The state of hysteria created by IK/PTI is primarily designed to keep their base charged for the next elections. The PTI leadership knows that slowly but surely the economy will survive with or without them. I hope that PTI wins national elections and pushes its reforms through while keeping the BPS-21 afsar in his place.

 

[sparten]

I agree with this statement. The "sky is falling" sentiment needs to be checked. PDM is not a permanent factor. There will be elections and even if IK is barred from running, he needs to build a team of trusted lieutenants who can get elected and run the country. The focus should remain on next elections on PTI's relatively cleaner image. The state of hysteria created by IK/PTI is primarily designed to keep their base charged for the next elections. The PTI leadership knows that slowly but surely the economy will survive with or without them. I hope that PTI wins national elections and pushes its reforms through while keeping the BPS-21 afsar in his place.

You guys don't get it do you? IK is symptom not the disease The disease is that the people have lost confidence in you guys, and its your own fault. No one asked you guys to go to bat for PDM, you did it yourself. No one asked you to **** up two decades of diplomacy by attacking the Russians openly. No one asked you to start shooting at protestors. No one asked you to arrest kids for making memes on twitter. No one asked you to **** the economy by supporting a regime change when the whole thing was precariously placed. No one asked you to bring back Dar and support his polices which have literally led to de-industrialisation.

You did it yourself and you have no one to blame. Especially when you had dozens of chances to get out. On a month since March.

The healing can only begin when you admit it was all your fault.