Nawaz Sharif: The Man With No Gumption

[waz]

JEDDAH: The Saudi government has evacuated Sarwar Palace in which former prime minister Mian Mohammad Nawaz Sharif was living, and which was given to him by the Saudi government when he went into exile for 10 years in a deal after President Pervez Musharraf took over the reigns of the Pakistani government in 1999.

Due to the evacuation, some 20 servants who were working for the Sharif family at Sarwar Palace have lost their jobs and are looking for other jobs in Saudi Arabia. Nawaz Sharif, who had been living in exile under a deal in Saudi Arabia for the last 7 years, had applied for a British visa so that he could travel to the UK for his son Hasan Nawaz’s treatment.

Nawaz Sharif left for London 9 months ago on the condition that he would not take part in any politics and would soon return to Saudi Arabia. However, in defiance of the condition, he got an extension on his UK visa and is also participating in politics – a move that has irked the Saudi government. Infuriated by Nawaz Sharif’s defiance, the Saudi government has taken back all facilities granted to him and has also evacuated the Sarwar Palace. Nawaz Sharif’s mother and other family members will now live with Nawaz’s brother Abbas Sharif at his house in Madinah. Nawaz Sharif’s son-in-law, Captain Safdar, has also left for London on flight SV-113.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...5-10-2006_pg7_8


He really could not help himself could he? After screwing the nation he then spits on his hosts and flouts the rules they gave to him.....How can anyone believe anything from him? Oh wait a minute.....

 

[Bull]

nay be u wanna read the article written by Indian writer Kuldip Nayar.who won and who lost the kargil.

I am interested,can u please pst it here.

 

[Lahori paa jee]

Yes but we certainly wouldn't lose and they wouldn't win...As for Kargil it played at well militarily until the withdrawal but the diplomatic front was in shambles.

paa jee any army can start a war how it will finish is not 1 side decision.not any pakistani here belive that we can start a war and finish it at the same tim without casulities its kind of wet dream just like lots of pakistanies here.
cough cough cough..lahori paa jee.cough cough thinks gunja ****** will be back.now thats the isllusion .nay be u wanna read the article written by Indian writer Kuldip Nayar.who won and who lost the kargil.but off course that would prove some thing u don't wanna accept.

I have read that article.

But the question i would like to ask all of you is,

What do you think would have been the out come of this war? What would have happened if NS had not bailed out PA?

Think rationally and then answer. I will give my views later

 

[waz]

I have read that article.

But the question i would like to ask all of you is,

What do you think would have been the out come of this war? What would have happened if NS had not bailed out PA?

Think rationally and then answer. I will give my views later

No one bailed out anyone and most certainly not NS who knew of the operation. International pressure was massive on Pakistan at the time and we were seen as the aggressor along with a chorus of disapprovals form the world community.

As for the outcome who knows? Maybe the war would of expanded may it might not of. Both states did not want an expansion of the war.

 

[Goodperson]

I still do not understand what wrong did Nawaz Sharif do ?
why is Musharaf afraid of Sharif ? Musharaf has all the powers and if Sharif does not have public support he cannot to anything.

He was democratically elected leader with huge margin.
He was toppled by Musharaf in a coup.
He has become bad Just because Musahraf wants him not to return. Musharaf even went to extent to get Sharif hanged till Saudi government came to rescue Sharif and there was Pressure from US govt on Musaharf not to do so.
Now Musaharf does not want anybody to touch his two chairs nobody in Pakistan can question him. He will force himself on Pakistan for year to come.
I understand he has good amount of wealth too. Why someone does not ask Musaharaf to declare his wealth ?

 

[Lahori paa jee]

No one bailed out anyone and most certainly not NS who knew of the operation. International pressure was massive on Pakistan at the time and we were seen as the aggressor along with a chorus of disapprovals form the world community.

As for the outcome who knows? Maybe the war would of expanded may it might not of. Both states did not want an expansion of the war.

With the feeling that India would have lost Kashmir (which was the case), don't you think a full out war was just around the corner.

And do u believe our army was prepared for such a war. How many wars had Pakistan won to that day

 

[waz]

With the feeling that India would have lost Kashmir (which was the case), don't you think a full out war was just around the corner.

And do u believe our army was prepared for such a war. How many wars had Pakistan won to that day

How many we won? We held the advantage in 47, we did well in most of the engagements in 65 even though being numerically in a far worse position than we were during Kargil. Then we lost in 71 but with such odds and whole country wide insurgency who could win like that? You then have Kargil….

Do you believe their army was prepared for all out war? The answer is no as they too had problems with ammunition reserves like us and at best could only conduct a limited campaign. Have you read up on their reluctance to hit past the line of control and expand the conflict?

 

[MastanKhan]

Lahori,

India was in no condition to start a full scale war---if you had read the papers at time--- the indian army had run out of its 155mm howitzer shells and had to make emergency purchases from south africa and anybody else.

Instead of putting the pak army and its strategy down just because of our political diffrences we need to analyze the situation in the right manner----with huge combat fatalities coming down from kargil---its frontline troops pulled back and troops from other regions sent in, indian army was in no position to start another front----plus right during that time one of its major ammo dump blew up. Things were not going the indian way and all that at a time when the pakistani forces had not even committed its full fledged support of the kargil conflict.

What I am saying is that pak army had not even started its full fledged assault-----. That is where Nawaz comes into picture. Musharraf had stuck the nail in the indian heart and gave the hammer to Nawaz Sharif to strike it deeper----that gutless SOB sold us in washington when he sat down with Clinton.

Why did not Vajpai go to the USof A-----because india had become the laughing stock of the world one more time----getting a bloody nose from pakistan one more time.

 

[Cheetah786]

goodperson

Saudi government came to rescue Sharif

WHY did the saudi care enough to come and get him.if u can answer that question u will get all the answers u are asking the questions for.

oh by the way your good nawazs own dad was also known as . mian engine chore(theif)

 

[lulldapull]

Lahori,

India was in no condition to start a full scale war---if you had read the papers at time--- the indian army had run out of its 155mm howitzer shells and had to make emergency purchases from south africa and anybody else.

Instead of putting the pak army and its strategy down just because of our political diffrences we need to analyze the situation in the right manner----with huge combat fatalities coming down from kargil---its frontline troops pulled back and troops from other regions sent in, indian army was in no position to start another front----plus right during that time one of its major ammo dump blew up. Things were not going the indian way and all that at a time when the pakistani forces had not even committed its full fledged support of the kargil conflict.

What I am saying is that pak army had not even started its full fledged assault-----. That is where Nawaz comes into picture. Musharraf had stuck the nail in the indian heart and gave the hammer to Nawaz Sharif to strike it deeper----that gutless SOB sold us in washington when he sat down with Clinton.

Why did not Vajpai go to the USof A-----because india had become the laughing stock of the world one more time----getting a bloody nose from pakistan one more time.

That up above is a highly uninformed post!

Do you honestly believe that a few reversals (only initially) in Kargil actually somehow gave Pakistan any initiative? Do you also believe that India would not have driven right through Punjab and Sind's borders or opened a much wider front if as you claim that they had become bogegd down in Kargil sector?

pakistan was in no shape or form ready to fight a full scale war with India. Truth is that this stupid Musharraf realised that he had bitten more than he could chew, and sent Nawaz to intervene as India had threatened full scale war. Which pakistan would not have been able to handle.

killing 800 Indian soldiers while losing 289 (officially admitetd pakistani deaths although the actual figures are probably far higher, and I am basing this on the current Pakistani casualty figures of admitted 500 dead in Waziristan, where as now we are beginning to see that well over 5000 Pakistani troops died in Waziristan over a 3 year span).

Losing 155mm rounds (as you claim) doesnot mean that the hundreds of other howitzers that the IA had deployed in Kargil area would also be taken out of consideration. Those beleagured Pakistani troops had no aircover....No overt support, and their supply lines were interdicted. PAF remained grounded due to fear, while these sanctions ridden joker Pakistani 'Rommel' Generals panicked about the consequences of a full fledged war with a rival 4 times their size.

PAF strength at that time was, and Iam being generous:

28 (operational status questionable due to 8 years of sanctions) and no BVR capability

130 F-7's (No BVR capability)

150 mirage III/V's (with more than 40 of that number in France getting that ROSE retrofit, and no BVR capability)

50 A-5's (throughly obsolete)

110 F-6's (cannon fodder) beyond obsolete.

The IAF at that time was in fighting trim with more than 800 combat aircraft,

Including the first 18 MK-1 Sukhoi's operational or in the process of being inducted

75 Mig-29B's

45 Mirage-2000H's.

Over 200 Jaguars available for Strike missions

More than 150 Mig-27D/L's,

50 or so mig-23MF's

and more than 400 Mig-21's.

PAF was in no shape or form at that time (not that it is in any better one now). You don't go to war with the balance of forces looking like this.....The IAF would have handed them their aas on a platter. All IAF aircraft except for the mig-21FL, Jaguars and mig-27D/L's had BVR capability, ranging from the R-13R's, R-17,27 and R-77, not to mention the Super 530 and Mica! PAF had nothing but the single aspect Aim-9P's or at the most the Aim-9L to count on......opretty short legged wouldn't you think?.... honestly....(If you even remotely contemplate what I am talking about)

The Pakistan Navy was in as pathetic a shape as ever with all the Brooke and Garcia/ Gearing class frigates and destroyers having been returned after the expiration of their leases.

Without aircover the Pakistani army which was in relatively better shape than the other two services would have been routed, like it was in Kargil....when one after another almost all those 'peaks' fell in Indian hands, and these myopic Pakistani Generals were left with the only option to exercise.....Send nawaz Sharif over to ask for help from their masters in Washington or else they'd been humbled yet again, just like in 1971!

Nawaz wanted to court martial this Musharraf buffoon for this one of the greatest military debacle in Pakistani army's history after the loss of East Pakistan. I am not defending gunja over here....INMO he was just as corrupt as Benazir...but Musharraf's blunder should not be forgiven. He should have been court martialled!

 

[Bull]

Lahori,

India was in no condition to start a full scale war---if you had read the papers at time--- the indian army had run out of its 155mm howitzer shells and had to make emergency purchases from south africa and anybody else..

We had the money to buy,did you?
Have you heard abt the Israeli supplies to IA during that time???

Its ridiculous to see such comments being repeated one after another which is only supported by rheotoric and nothing else.

---its frontline troops pulled back and troops from other regions sent in, indian army was in no position to start another front----plus right during that time one of its major ammo dump blew up. Things were not going the indian way and all that at a time when the pakistani forces had not even committed its full fledged support of the kargil conflict..

WoW you might be speaking of a incredible army,without even commiting its full fledged army,it managed to bring to knees an Army which is 2 times its size an airforce which is 3 times it size and a navy which is 5 times its size.

WOW THATS INCREDIBLE !!!

What I am saying is that pak army had not even started its full fledged assault-----. That is where Nawaz comes into picture. Musharraf had stuck the nail in the indian heart and gave the hammer to Nawaz Sharif to strike it deeper----that gutless SOB sold us in washington when he sat down with Clinton..

Your country didnt have the balls to accept that your army was behind it.Why didnt your nation accept that its the PA who was behind it and not the freedom fighters?Why did the world have to wait for Mushraffs book to see the acceptance of PA's involvement?

Why did not Vajpai go to the USof A-----because india had become the laughing stock of the world one more time----getting a bloody nose from pakistan one more time.

yes yes,i also read abt it.:wall:

 

[MastanKhan]

Bull,

Soviet equipment is notorious for its down time. At an average it has about 30 % down time. But it does not stop there. The incompetence of the indian defence procurement dept., cheap quality parts purchaesd from third party countries has had its multiplier effect and that puts it between 35-40% down time. Just look at the purchase for the new T 90's from russia----just to fill the stop gap. You can't fight a war with 40 % of your equipment in need of repairs.

India has BVR----but the problem with the missiles is that they are not very good at tracking targets at very low altitudes----PAF trains most of the time at low altitudes and has been doing that for a long time. And at low altitude combat indian aircraft become very vulnerable.

India's SU 30's are a very beautiful and potent aircraft, but in a deep strike mission if india loses a dozen of them in a day-----your indian airforce's morale is done. So, damned if you have the SU 30's and damned if you can't use them for the fear of losing them.

At kargil, if Nawz had 'BALLZ' indian army would have been bogged down at that front and they would have knowingly not opened another front, because Vajpai's generals knew what the pakistani army could do to them on the other fronts.

There was no love lost between pakistan and india----if india had a way to neutralize pakistan, they would have done it. Numbers, majority, 3 times the numbers------you ought to have 'BALLZ' to go with the numbers. Niether in kargil, nor in 2002 indian army had those steel rollers that seperate men from boys. India was scared of getting egg on its face for the ' WHAT IF FACTOR '. What if pakistan took out one of our air craft carriers---what if---what----.

 

[Bull]

Bull,

Soviet equipment is notorious for its down time. At an average it has about 30 % down time. But it does not stop there. The incompetence of the indian defence procurement dept., cheap quality parts purchaesd from third party countries has had its multiplier effect and that puts it between 35-40% down time. Just look at the purchase for the new T 90's from russia----just to fill the stop gap. You can't fight a war with 40 % of your equipment in need of repairs..

Agreed abt the quality!!!
Now the tanks you had also were of soviet origin right?
So its the same for both of us.
But with more funds, IA would definitly have done a better job with maintanance than PA.

India has BVR----but the problem with the missiles is that they are not very good at tracking targets at very low altitudes----.

Dont know,so no comments on BVR and tracking.(IIRC F-16s were locked on by the mirage fighters flying over kargil,so it does mean that we have the capabilty to lock in).

And even in a WVR fight we have a numerical advantage.

PAF trains most of the time at low altitudes and has been doing that for a long time. And at low altitude combat indian aircraft become very vulnerable.

So what happens if IAF bombers fly high altitude and bomb pakistan,would your fighters still wait for IAF in low altitudes?

India's SU 30's are a very beautiful and potent aircraft, but in a deep strike mission if india loses a dozen of them in a day-----your indian airforce's morale is done. So, damned if you have the SU 30's and damned if you can't use them for the fear of losing them.

Well with more than 700 aircrafts if we fear losing a dozen,what would be the mindset of PAF with no credible Aircrafts at all??

At kargil, if Nawz had 'BALLZ' indian army would have been bogged down at that front and they would have knowingly not opened another front, because Vajpai's generals knew what the pakistani army could do to them on the other fronts..

Yes thats the maximum you would have done,but the generals were itching to open a new front it was Newdelhi who wasnt supporting it.

There was no love lost between pakistan and india----if india had a way to neutralize pakistan, they would have done it. Numbers, majority, 3 times the numbers------you ought to have 'BALLZ' to go with the numbers. Niether in kargil, nor in 2002 indian army had those steel rollers that seperate men from boys. India was scared of getting egg on its face for the ' WHAT IF FACTOR '. What if pakistan took out one of our air craft carriers---what if---what----.

It was more of a economic decision,if i was the PM then i too would have decided against going into a war.Not becasue of the fear of losing a few AC's or ships or anything but because of the economic impact.

We had nearly a decade of good economic performance and the country was seeing light at the end of the tunnel. A war at that time would have put the clock back by atleast 5 years and time lost cannot be gained back.

 

[MastanKhan]

Bull,

Even though some of our equipment comes from the same shelf, that is where the similiarity ends. There is maintenace and the most important item is the replacement parts. Indian procurement depts are notorious for buying cheap non OEM parts. Some of the electronis equipment is not properly integrated for extreme weather conditions which is the reason for a higher than average failure rate.

Bombers can fly high, but then they become visible to the radar easier. High flying bombers would have a hard time acquiring their targets as well.

It is not a matter of losing a few dozen----but what matters is that which plane you lose. Losing 12 Bisons in a day is not a big deal---but losing 12 SU 30's on day one would break the morale of most fighter pilots. That would be a reason enough to take the fight out of the fighter pilot. It brings out the fear factor----what does the enemy have. My instructor told me that my fighter was invincible. What are they going to come up with against my plane? What chance do I have of survival?

The economic factor-----well here is an oppurtunity to neutralize your enemy once for all and you would take into account the economic factor. Once you neutralized pakistan, you could have rebuilt again. No, it was not that----it was the 'WHAT IF---" factor. The indian strategists and war planners could not over come that what if factor.

You were afraid to lose 5 years of economic growth----heck, I would lose 20ears of economic growth to completely neutralize india.

 

[Bull]

Bull,

Even though some of our equipment comes from the same shelf, that is where the similiarity ends. There is maintenace and the most important item is the replacement parts. Indian procurement depts are notorious for buying cheap non OEM parts. Some of the electronis equipment is not properly integrated for extreme weather conditions which is the reason for a higher than average failure rate..

You hear about our problem becaue we audit and we damn criticise it,if they are wrong.What sort of a check do you have in place that can assure me that PA procurement is going on well.

Bombers can fly high, but then they become visible to the radar easier. High flying bombers would have a hard time acquiring their targets as well..

I dont think so.Then whats the purpose of high flying bombers? Tourism?

It is not a matter of losing a few dozen----but what matters is that which plane you lose. Losing 12 Bisons in a day is not a big deal---but losing 12 SU 30's on day one would break the morale of most fighter pilots. .

Losing 12 Su to what?What sort of a casulaity would PAF suffer to inflict such a casuality on IAF.IIRC Su would not be used in offensive roles,it would be the Migs,the mirages and jaguars that would be doing the job.

That would be a reason enough to take the fight out of the fighter pilot. It brings out the fear factor----what does the enemy have. My instructor told me that my fighter was invincible. .

No sensible AF would tell their pilot that their plane is invincible.

The economic factor-----well here is an oppurtunity to neutralize your enemy once for all and you would take into account the economic factor. Once you neutralized pakistan, you could have rebuilt again. No, it was not that----it was the 'WHAT IF---" factor. The indian strategists and war planners could not over come that what if factor..

India wont neutralise pakistan unless pak nukes India,so the "What IF scenario" doesnt occur.

You were afraid to lose 5 years of economic growth----heck, I would lose 20ears of economic growth to completely neutralize india.

Didnt u realise that you just lost 20 yrs trying the covert war.