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Nawaz comes to Delhi : My views

Powers-that-be have already made decisions. The nitty gritty details are to be finalized, but gross features have been agreed.

Jihadists have been left behind. They can perhaps create some incident etc... but the policy makers have moved on.
In this country on India still main policy comes from Army and they haven't moved on the speech of Army Chief was clearly an answer that nothing has changed so what ever Nawaz do its Army who will have last and final say in the end and with them the Jihadists
 
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In this country on India still main policy comes from Army and they haven't moved on the speech of Army Chief was clearly an answer that nothing has changed so what ever Nawaz do its Army who will have last and final say in the end and with them the Jihadists
Well Zarvan, your views are well known. You are the type that thinks that "ends justify the means". In other words - you have no problem about scale of sin committed or immorality spread, as long as you get what you want. This is where you are same as TTP types.

Our constitution says that elected goverment should be supreme in decision making. But you are OK with army generals usurping civilian power. Does it matter if that is actually wrong? Apparently for you it does not matter. You are just fixated on offensive war of conquest, telling everyone that it is somehow a religious obligation by twisting hadith to fit your views.

Let me emphasize again - jihadists have been left behind. If army can protect its previliges, it has no problem kicking jihadists aside. You are being used as a pawn, and you are adamant in your denials. Good for you, you deserve your delusions.
 
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Well Zarvan, your views are well known. You are the type that thinks that "ends justify the means". In other words - you have no problem about scale of sin committed or immorality spread, as long as you get what you want. This is where you are same as TTP types.

Our constitution says that elected goverment should be supreme in decision making. But you are OK with army generals usurping civilian power. Does it matter if that is actually wrong? Apparently for you it does not matter. You are just fixated on offensive war of conquest, telling everyone that it is somehow a religious obligation by twisting hadith to fit your views.

Let me emphasize again - jihadists have been left behind. If army can protect its previliges, it has no problem kicking jihadists aside. You are being used as a pawn, and you are adamant in your denials. Good for you, you deserve your delusions.
O Mr know and face the reality its Army who is still calling all shorts not government Jihadists related to India are also part of Army Policy Mr and Army gives a dam what nawaz do in India because they know they will have the final say and Jihadists were never left behind its your assumption not reality and
 
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In this country on India still main policy comes from Army and they haven't moved on the speech of Army Chief was clearly an answer that nothing has changed so what ever Nawaz do its Army who will have last and final say in the end and with them the Jihadists
Well Zarvan, your views are well known. You are the type that thinks that "ends justify the means". In other words - you have no problem about scale of sin committed or immorality spread, as long as you get what you want. This is where you are same as TTP types.

Our constitution says that elected goverment should be supreme in decision making. But you are OK with army generals usurping civilian power. Does it matter if that is actually wrong? Apparently for you it does not matter. You are just fixated on offensive war of conquest, telling everyone that it is somehow a religious obligation by twisting hadith to fit your views.

Let me emphasize again - jihadists have been left behind. If army can protect its previliges, it has no problem kicking jihadists aside. You are being used as a pawn, and you are adamant in your denials. Good for you, you deserve your delusions.
O Mr know and face the reality its Army who is still calling all shorts not government Jihadists related to India are also part of Army Policy Mr and Army gives a dam what nawaz do in India because they know they will have the final say and Jihadists were never left behind its your assumption not reality and
Yeah Zarvan, now you are presenting "ends justify means" with the heading of "might is right". Let me know how it feels when an army boot lands on your hind quarters. Sooner or later this is what happens to pawns.

Army is unfit to conduct foreign policy, just as it is unfit for any administrative / economic / political endeavor. But you lack the sense to understand this.

Your interpretations are so important to you that you are unwilling to look at equally valid alternatives. Do you think if and when war comes, people like me will just sit back? We will be in trenches while you would be typing away on forums. But I see no point in willfully instigating war, or strengthening army to the point where it chokes our elected government and kills our economy.

Nobody takes your delusions seriously any more. You are just a representative of a POV that is fast becoming irrelevant in Pakistan. Is it an accident that when you tag half a dozen or more posters in your rants, nobody actually responds? Soch ki kami hai, aur buss.
 
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Well Zarvan, your views are well known. You are the type that thinks that "ends justify the means". In other words - you have no problem about scale of sin committed or immorality spread, as long as you get what you want. This is where you are same as TTP types.

Our constitution says that elected goverment should be supreme in decision making. But you are OK with army generals usurping civilian power. Does it matter if that is actually wrong? Apparently for you it does not matter. You are just fixated on offensive war of conquest, telling everyone that it is somehow a religious obligation by twisting hadith to fit your views.

Let me emphasize again - jihadists have been left behind. If army can protect its previliges, it has no problem kicking jihadists aside. You are being used as a pawn, and you are adamant in your denials. Good for you, you deserve your delusions.

Yeah Zarvan, now you are presenting "ends justify means" with the heading of "might is right". Let me know how it feels when an army boot lands on your hind quarters. Sooner or later this is what happens to pawns.

Army is unfit to conduct foreign policy, just as it is unfit for any administrative / economic / political endeavor. But you lack the sense to understand this.

Your interpretations are so important to you that you are unwilling to look at equally valid alternatives. Do you think if and when war comes, people like me will just sit back? We will be in trenches while you would be typing away on forums. But I see no point in willfully instigating war, or strengthening army to the point where it chokes our elected government and kills our economy.

Nobody takes your delusions seriously any more. You are just a representative of a POV that is fast becoming irrelevant in Pakistan. Is it an accident that when you tag half a dozen or more posters in your rants, nobody actually responds? Soch ki kami hai, aur buss.
Except for Musharraf Army proved to be better in terms of foreign policy these political leaders prove them selves biggest dumbos when it comes to foreign policy
 
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Except for Musharraf Army proved to be better in terms of foreign policy these political leaders prove them selves biggest dumbos when it comes to foreign policy
That is just desperate propaganda which has worn thin over time.

FACT: Army lost territory, civilians added territory. DISPROVE THIS FACT IF YOU CAN.

Pawns like you are biggest threat to rule of law because you are mindless in your support of unconstitutional steps. How did it turn out the last time?

Pawns like you do not have the sense to see that Afghan policy in 70s and 80s was put in place by Bhutto, not Zia.

Pawns like you conveniently forget the debacle of East Pakistan and army's role in it.

Pawns like you fail to see flaws of operation Gibraltar. You do not see lack of proper assessment, planning, and damage control. We were forced to fight a defensive war for which we were ill-prepared thanks to the dictator.

Pawns like you never wonder or bother to remember PM Feroze Noon who added Gawadar to Pakistan - the only time territory was added to Pakistan.

Pawns like you are quick to claim Pakistan for their distorted vision when in fact your ideological ancestors did very little to support Pakistan movement.

The sooner we are done with POVs like yours, the better off we would be as a nation.

Allah has his own ways, but likes of you think that you can force His plans by your idiocies.
 
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My views about the butcher Modi have been expressed many times. Here is an article by Zafar Hilali; an ex ambassador and seasoned foreign relations commentator.

Zafar HilalyWednesday, May 28, 2014
From Print Edition


60 6 23 6

5-28-2014_252609_l_akb.jpg
The election of Narendra Modi, a hugely controversial and polarising figure, bodes ill for peace in the region. Some feel a Modi victory is like a declaration of war. It’s a pity that Manmohan Singh did not seize the opportunity he had to fix relations with Pakistan. Instead he opened the cage door for the tiger Modi.

There is nothing about Modi that is reassuring. Not his past, nor his recent words or actions; and as for his political DNA it’s positively scary. Indians, who never lose a moment to sound off against extremists, have elected a Hindu extremist to the highest office of the land. It needs a rare detachment of spirit to be as hypocritical as they are and still go about preaching their mantra.

What is there that we do not know about Modi? He has never made any bones about his feelings towards Muslims and Pakistan. Actually, he’s been outspoken to a fault. Imagine accusing the Assam government of doing away with local Rhinos merely for the sake of accommodating Bangla-speaking Muslims. Even assuming that animals in some religions take preference over humans is that what Bangladeshis needed to be told by the next Indian prime minister?

I am not surprised Hasina Wajid isn’t coming to Delhi. As for threatening us with “a nuclear bomb in return for every bullet” and ‘taking out’ Dawood Ibrahim a la the Americans did Osama – let’s ignore that. It’s the kind of rhetoric to be expected from an Indian politician on the make.

More troubling are examples where Modi has not missed an opportunity to increase communal polarisation. For example, he has criticised the export of beef from India, thereby hinting that it’s the Muslims who are responsible for this presumably odious practice. Nor is it a mere coincidence that there is not a single Muslim in the 282 MPs elected on the BJP ticket. And who has not heard of Modi’s sordid role in the Gujarat riots of 2002.

A man of Modi’s beliefs, background and disposition will seize any opportunity to weaken and destroy Pakistan. The ‘vivisection’ of Bharat Mata that the existence of Pakistan epitomises for this RSS acolyte may be something Modi has to live with today but if he gets half a chance to undo Pakistan, he would.

Of course, there are many here who believe that Modi’s eagerness to appear ‘tough’ during the election campaign, and his scorn of Congress’s ‘soft’ response to ‘Pakistani terrorist attacks’ is really so much hot air, because a muscular approach towards Pakistan at the hustings yields rich electoral dividends – especially in the ‘cow belt’ states. Initially, I too went along with that interpretation of Modi’s antics but – here’s the catch – given Modi’s politico/religious DNA I suspect Modi may be foolish enough to practise what he preaches and therefore it’s best to be on our guard.

But try telling that to some Pakistani liberals and you’ll be branded an Indian basher. Unfortunately, here bitter truths are the property of a few. They have yet to be woven into the national fabric. And that’s because troubled and stressed-out Pakistanis crave good news, regardless of whether it is true or not. And if there is no good news to go around we employ all sorts of deceptions and cultivate illusions to make sure there is.

In short, we are past masters of the art of fooling ourselves. And Modi’s unprecedented invitation to Nawaz Sharif did just that. No one knew how to respond. So we witnessed outlandish interpretations and copious high-powered huddles wondering why Modi had acted the way he had and what our response should be.

At a TV talk show when I ventured to suggest that Modi was not Vajpayee and not the peace partner Nawaz Sharif wanted and, therefore, whether Nawaz Sharif went to Delhi or not really made no difference in the long run a TV anchor insisted that Modi “must have changed because at the time he was the chief minister of Gujarat but now he is the prime minister of India”.

When I remonstrated one of her assistants told me, “You see, sir, she wants to send the audience home brimming with anticipation for the future rather than upset and worried at the prospect of someone like Modi ruling India for the next five years”’

“Oh! I see”, I responded, “the aim is to energise the people with new hope, eagerness and faith that salvation was at hand, if only for a few days”. Her messenger nodded vigorously.

Such behaviour is not unusual. Recall, when we discovered there was no way out of our predicament during the Bangladesh war a rumour mysteriously surfaced that the US 7 fleet was on its way to bail us out. Some in Chittagong even rushed to the beach to see whether they could spot the US fleet anchored off the coast. In 1965 we were told that Indonesian submarines were arriving to help us whack India when nothing of the sort was even remotely on the cards.

That’s akin to what transpired when Nawaz Sharif announced he would be talking to the Taliban. Peace committees were appointed; ceasefires agreed to and the murderous Taliban were suddenly described as ‘our brothers’. Everything was done to suggest that peace with the Taliban was around the corner when, in fact, peace was no more at hand than Christmas. But then reality returned, as it inevitably does, to destroy make-believe and everything ended in a profusion of Taliban ambushes, air strikes and a welter of deaths.




Take another example, Finance Minister Dar knows it is infinitely better to be well-off than to seem to be well-off. But if the nation does not have the virtues or the resources to succeed and amass wealth and look well-off then Dar thinks it’s best to pose as if it can. So what does he do? He goes on and on about pie-in-the-sky development plans, entertains rich foreign rulers and boasts they plan to invest huge sums and when nothing happens, black-outs take effect and misery is compounded, Dar quietly goes back to prepare the country for yet another year of skimping.

Lest we all become victims of flowery and insincere words and emotions; of unfelt sentiments conveying nothing but a penumbra of half truths and plastic lies; or delude a people who are desperate to be deluded, let’s candidly admit that real life is very different.

And Modi, lest he remain under the delusion that India can beat and bully it’s way to solving problems, could usefully recall that the use of force ‘is nothing but a slothful attempt to ignore the complexity of reality’. And that force sometimes has the tendency to upset and overwhelm those who have recourse to it, as India learnt from the 1962 China war.

Had I, like in my past incarnation, been charged with preparing talking points for the Delhi visit I could have done no better than to recall the excellent advice someone gave BB and suggest he pass it on to Modi.

‘In an emergency’, the advice goes, ‘it is not enough to know that the problem is bad; it is also necessary to be reasonably certain that the problem has been properly described; fairly certain that the proposed remedy will improve it and virtually certain that it will not make it worse… This requires thought, common sense and careful judgement and, above all, no ill tested all-purpose solutions’. Perhaps only then we could look forward to peace.

Meanwhile Nawaz Sharif should try to pin Modi down to set a date for the next summit before he departs Delhi. If Modi balks, on one pretext or another, Nawaz will know better what’s in store.

The writer is a former ambassador. Email: charles123it@hotmail.com

Masters of the art of fooling ourselves - Zafar Hilaly
 
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2 PM's with strong majority in their respective parliaments is the only 'common' denominator. NS remain a weak, indecisive leader blinded by his delusion of being the 'Amir-ul-Mominen", whereas Modi is probably the most strongest indian leader since Indira Ghandi - 30 years ago.

look for increase in ****-bashing!!!
 
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2 PM's with strong majority in their respective parliaments is the only 'common' denominator. NS remain a weak, indecisive leader blinded by his delusion of being the 'Amir-ul-Mominen", whereas Modi is probably the most strongest indian leader since Indira Ghandi - 30 years ago.

look for increase in ****-bashing!!!

Neither is NS as much of a weakling nor is NM as much of a leader as you make it seem. Both will try to make out the best for their respective sides, given that NM has a complex and fractious nation to lead, and NS has the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in uniform siting on his back.
 
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I am upset that so much importance being given to his visit, what about other guys. Are they insignificant because they are small and less powerful?
Indian media will behave like kids now. Imagine invited to a party and nobody bothers to even recognize your presence.
Well, other guys haven't tried to kill each other, so there's that.

2 PM's with strong majority in their respective parliaments is the only 'common' denominator. NS remain a weak, indecisive leader blinded by his delusion of being the 'Amir-ul-Mominen", whereas Modi is probably the most strongest indian leader since Indira Ghandi - 30 years ago.

look for increase in ****-bashing!!!
I disagree, the fact that NS went ahead to India, despite opposition pressure tells me that he's quite strong. I think he's stuck because of his own promises, and not that he's indecisive.

Besides, it's hard to concentrate on a few issues, when your nation is fighting a war, and is having difficulty with peacetalks.
 
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Well, other guys haven't tried to kill each other, so there's that.


I disagree, the fact that NS went ahead to India, despite opposition pressure tells me that he's quite strong. I think he's stuck because of his own promises, and not that he's indecisive.

Besides, it's hard to concentrate on a few issues, when your nation is fighting a war, and is having difficulty with peacetalks.

I am pretty sure you can get worse PM's than Nawaz.
 
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Neither is NS as much of a weakling nor is NM as much of a leader as you make it seem. Both will try to make out the best for their respective sides, given that NM has a complex and fractious nation to lead, and NS has the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in uniform siting on his back.
Yes, but that comes into play only when the mandate is weak. Like MMS had or Vajpayee had.

Modi is not the type who can go about forging a consensus and bridging viewpoints. If he had a fractured mandate like the one that MMS had or Vajpayee had, he would undoubtedly have been much worse than MMS. He would not have been able to get anything done, his personality and way of working is the exact opposite of consensus.

Fortunately or unfortunately for us, he has a mandate where he does not need anyone's support(not even his allies).He has the biggest mandate ever achieved in the past 30 years.

So it allows him to work in his own style - autocratic, almost dictatorial. He always delivers results at the end of the day as long as he gets his style of functioning combined with the mandate he has always achieved (in Gujarat). The majority mandate lends to his style of governance. And he has demonstrated that by riding roughshod over dissent and opposing viewpoints in his first day of office.

So he wont be facing the problem you have mentioned.

2 PM's with strong majority in their respective parliaments is the only 'common' denominator. NS remain a weak, indecisive leader blinded by his delusion of being the 'Amir-ul-Mominen", whereas Modi is probably the most strongest indian leader since Indira Ghandi - 30 years ago.

look for increase in ****-bashing!!!
Modi will not do anything in the coming 5 years against Pakistan. He knows the military is woefully unprepared. Defence spending has hit a 50 year low under MMS Government at 1.72% of GDP. The economy is growing at around 5%.

For all his flaws, Modi is extremely intelligent, extremely calculative. He has his priorities. He is gunning for relection and I dont doubt that he will win.

He will reorganize the Military and increase spending gradually this term. The results will take atleast 5 years to bear fruit in the Defence Services. Look for a very aggressive Modi/India in his second term.
 
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Yes, but that comes into play only when the mandate is weak. Like MMS had or Vajpayee had.
Modi is not the type who can go about forging a consensus and bridging viewpoints. If he had a fractured mandate like the one that MMS had or Vajpayee had, he would undoubtedly have been much worse than MMS. He would not have been able to get anything done, his personality and way of working is the exact opposite of consensus.
Fortunately or unfortunately for us, he has a mandate where he does not need anyone's support(not even his allies).He has the biggest mandate ever achieved in the past 30 years.
So it allows him to work in his own style - autocratic, almost dictatorial. However he always delivers results at the end of the day. The majority mandate lends to his style of governance. And he has demonstrated that by riding roughshod over dissent and opposing viewpoints in his first day of office.
So he wont be facing the problem you have mentioned.

You make some good points, but please note that I called the nation that Mr. Modi now tries to lead as complex and fractious, not his mandate. My point still stands.
 
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You make some good points, but please note that I called the nation that Mr. Modi now tries to lead as complex and fractious, not his mandate. My point still stands.
Yes I know what you wrote. And I wrote this:
"but that comes into play only when the mandate is weak"

The nation is fractious, but the differences only assert themselves when the mandate is weak and the PM has to appease regional parties.
Probably the biggest reason why Modi got such an overwhelming mandate was that people of India were tired of regional satraps trying to take their pound of flesh from the Central Govt. It stalled progress, economy, foreign policy, military.

They voted for National parties because of this.
 
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